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Carrylex

To the Devs - stop creating a meta

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Meta in this context is essentially the 'popular or optimal way to play' - the OP is saying the developers are purposefully making only certain builds usable, and he/she desires to use whatever build he/she wants, or at the very least have more options available.

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@Surandra quote:

Meta in this context is essentially the 'popular or optimal way to play' - the OP is saying the developers are purposefully making only certain builds usable, and he/she desires to use whatever build he/she wants, or at the very least have more options available.

Excellent point and stated very well.

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Comparing the current state of DD2 to a game like League of Legends is incredibly silly. League has an extremely long list of complex angles to look at when making balance changes or concept changes to characters. DD2 currently has a very limited list of things you can "customize". Bring this argument back when the game is 4 years released and there is a larger variety in builds.


your argument at this point would equate to "stop developing the game"

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@Syclic quote:

your argument at this point would equate to "stop developing the game"

Yeah, based on what they are currently doing they really should stop.

Builds should be a nice Option, but players should be able to work out individual builds ( like a only defense-speed-stun-everything,but do no-dmg cannon build for example )

White stats ( = builds ) are so strong they are required for every endgame item, and there is no room for variation.

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The OP can't be any more dumb. They CREATE NEW passives without removing anything and you complain about what exactly? That they are purposely narrowing our range of choice for itemization? 

You are contradicting yourself. 

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@NCO quote:

White stats ( = builds ) are so strong they are required for every endgame item, and there is no room for variation.

The build passives are specifically non-white text.


The build passive idea is not as inherently evil as many people seem to be painting it. It's not quite done, just like Ubers, but it can become something good. If Trendy stops now after they put in the first 4 it will end up as big of a joke as the Ubers are. Loot updates need to come out to support the builds and more builds need to be added. When there are enough builds for each hero types that you can not have them all together, that's where you will find where the players can start creating their own strategies. There will still be the "strongest" build, but there will also be a handful or more setups that will be good enough.

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Well i mean like there is no build variety, because this is imbalanced as ****. Yes lol is more complex in points of balance but this game isn't - why is it so hard to balance the little things we have here. There are many useless towers, and also superior ones -> all people using the good ones and this exactly gives us the meta. It is even that unbalanced that people can think of devs doing this imbalances to make people use the tower the devs want us to.

Also calling me dump or anything when i only tell my opinion shows of little social competence and small ... :x

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@Carrylex quote:

Well i mean like there is no build variety, because this is imbalanced as ****. Yes lol is more complex in points of balance but this game isn't - why is it so hard to balance the little things we have here. There are many useless towers, and also superior ones -> all people using the good ones and this exactly gives us the meta. It is even that unbalanced that people can think of devs doing this imbalances to make people use the tower the devs want us to.

I do agree with that, but at the same time, you have to actually HAVE things to balance in order to balance them. It is always a good decision to push the content first and the more - the better and then start balancing. Because with new content, old content could bug out, causing much more headache and productivity:) So what Trendy did, was push the passives for each class (2 for squire) and now they are balancing it. 

I did not call you anything. OP = original post, not author. I apologize if i offended you and for confusion.

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It seems to me that Trendy is trying to get rid of the "meta". Every time one is discovered, it gets nerfed (maybe not immediately but eventually). If there is a meta now I don't know what it is. I've came up with about 10 different builds to lose with on nm1 and 2.

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Whenever new builds are introduced, all that is doing is shifting the meta away from one defense and moving it towards another. This is why the current passive and "build" model will be impossible to balance, and I do not like it at all.

I would SO MUCH rather have 16 viable defenses in the game as opposed to 4-5 that constantly change each patch. These new builds either do absolutely nothing for the game (like phoenix blaze balloons), or make them absolutely required to complete content (like frosty power). Build passives don't provide any middle ground from a balance standpoint, so as long as they exist, we're always going to be cornered into one meta.

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I do not see a problem with a bigger variety of passives (that is exactly what "builds" are, right?). More passives means more ways to build your defenses. Some even change their behaviour. It is like a passive Uber Sphere.

Imo, they only need to get balanced out. 

Also, there will always be a meta that majority play. That should not be a problem. There always is a meta. First, it was Defense Speed. Now, it is Defense Power + Defense Health / boost. 

Meta can't really be a good thing nor it can be a bad thing =) It just exists no matter what. 

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@Syclic quote:

Comparing the current state of DD2 to a game like League of Legends is incredibly silly. League has an extremely long list of complex angles to look at when making balance changes or concept changes to characters. DD2 currently has a very limited list of things you can "customize". Bring this argument back when the game is 4 years released and there is a larger variety in builds.


your argument at this point would equate to "stop developing the game"

I see no  comparisons to LOL?

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We figure out a strategy, a build (a meta), and the Dev's break it.

They create a game where you have to do their build, or you cannot advance.  It becomes a requirement to have a Huntress with trap damage even if you wanted to play Huntress with Ability Power instead.


I bought it, let me play it the way I want to play it.  Don't force me into playing a limited structured defense.

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@Seph quote:

I do not see a problem with a bigger variety of passives (that is exactly what "builds" are, right?). More passives means more ways to build your defenses. Some even change their behaviour. It is like a passive Uber Sphere.

Imo, they only need to get balanced out. 

Also, there will always be a meta that majority play. That should not be a problem. There always is a meta. First, it was Defense Speed. Now, it is Defense Power + Defense Health / boost. 

Meta can't really be a good thing nor it can be a bad thing =) It just exists no matter what. 

Trying to balance passives leads to an impossible paradox.

  • How are arcane barriers going to compete with hearty blockades? Do we balance hearty blockades against the arcane barrier, or the base spike blockade vs. base arcane barrier? If we balance arcane barrier around hearty blockades, that thereby acknowledges that the passives are required. If we balance the arcane barrier around the spike blockade without passives, hearty blockades clearly come out on top.
  • Another example: say for instance you have two sets of gear at 240 item power, one with speedy harpoon passives on each piece and one without. Considering each bolt deals the same amount of damage, do you balance enemies around ballistas shooting once every two seconds or once every 5 seconds? If you balance enemies around ballistas firing every two seconds, that passive is then required to complete content. If you balance enemies around ballistas firing every 5 seconds, having the passive trivializes content.

Basically with the current direction of the game, balance is either a choice of requiring the most powerful passives on gear to get anywhere, or trivializing all content because of the presence of passives.


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@Seph quote:

(...) Also, there will always be a meta that majority play. That should not be a problem. There always is a meta. First, it was Defense Speed. Now, it is Defense Power + Defense Health / boost. 

Meta can't really be a good thing nor it can be a bad thing =) It just exists no matter what. 

Defense Power + Defense Health isn't the "meta": it is the only way to properly increase your item power, at least currently. Same goes for "boost" if it refers to the Frosty Power - you can't call it "meta" if it is the only viable way to gear yourself.

Right after Loot and Survive came I gave my opinion that the "Crit" stats (for Hero and Tower) were useless and inviable, and it still stands as such even after the Phoenix Call introduction (supposedly a defense crit build); the only "builds" that aren't optimally Defense Power + Defense Health on as much slots as possible are the Hero DPS / tanker builds and the Squire Blockade (Hero Health + Defense Health) ones.

Explanation: To have a "meta" you need your players making choices between different options. Without defense range and speed as stats (as they are to be reintroduced on items, if ever, on a somewhat distant future), the only VIABLE option is going Defense Power + Defense Health on ALL the toons (other than the blockade / DPS ones); EACH AND EVERY PIECE that rolls something else (be it resistances, critical chance, critical damage...) is instantly garbage or subpar even if it rolls awesome passive numbers (unless legacy Frosty).

Without Skill Trees and allocable Stat Points the only "choices" are:
1. Picking your toon (this one goes outta the window when you need one of each builder in your deck);
2. "choosing" your... builds.

... "Choosing" a build isn't a choice when the proper/best/only stat combination is just one (as I explained above), each toon has only one passive set implemented, and just one deck combination is powerful enough (frosty + barriers + traps) to get past endgame content without getting into backhanded shenanigans.

... When we get any choice at all, then we may discuss forced meta vs. emergent meta gameplay. Only then.
(but the company seems to be headed towards forced meta, yes. If they want the game to have any longevity, then they really need to create enough options and combinations to allow emergent, non-intended gameplay to come by - and that's impossible when you have all your game design ideas tied to itemization, like they currently have. But I'll shaddup for now.)

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Edit: on a closer look through the thread I saw you already clarified yourself.

@Seph quote:

How is this personal ? 

"OP" could mean either "original poster" (the person who made the post) or "original post" (the message itself).  Using the former interpretation, you said "the person who started this thread could not be more dumb".  I guess your intended meaning was the latter, i.e. "the first message in this thread could not be more dumb".

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@tdb quote:

"OP" could mean either "original poster" (the person who made the post) or "original post" (the message itself).  Using the former interpretation, you said "the person who started this thread could not be more dumb".  I guess your intended meaning was the latter, i.e. "the first message in this thread could not be more dumb".

Oh. Right, could mean poster as well :/ Messed up badly there, lol. Thought OP meant Original Post and the author being the "author". Gotta keep that in mind in the future -_-; thanks [[47548,users]]

Yes, i meant that the original post was very ignorant. 

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I dont really care, usually ppls calling others stupid just do so because they lack other arguments - can we go back to topic ?
btw. my post was no contradiction, just maybe slightly bad english ( no native speaker, sry )

my point was ( imho comparable to what gigazelle also posted ):
a build ( as a general player setup)  made by a single set of specific boni for this build ( like the current whitestats etc. ) is always inferior to a system that just gives access to the tools ( combining tower speed with a %-chance proc for example )  if the items a build is made of are generic enough, every single player is challenged to use his creativity to make a build that is fun for him ( no everyone just wants the fastest DPS, some want CC, some like it shiny, some like it loud etc. )

removing Tower Speed was the first step from the right path, and 'builds' are the first step in the wrong direction... at least in my opinion. Devs have another plan, i hope i just dont see the big picture.

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@gigazelle quote:

Trying to balance passives leads to an impossible paradox.

  • How are arcane barriers going to compete with hearty blockades? Do we balance hearty blockades against the arcane barrier, or the base spike blockade vs. base arcane barrier? If we balance arcane barrier around hearty blockades, that thereby acknowledges that the passives are required. If we balance the arcane barrier around the spike blockade without passives, hearty blockades clearly come out on top.
  • Another example: say for instance you have two sets of gear at 240 item power, one with speedy harpoon passives on each piece and one without. Considering each bolt deals the same amount of damage, do you balance enemies around ballistas shooting once every two seconds or once every 5 seconds? If you balance enemies around ballistas firing every two seconds, that passive is then required to complete content. If you balance enemies around ballistas firing every 5 seconds, having the passive trivializes content.

Basically with the current direction of the game, balance is either a choice of requiring the most powerful passives on gear to get anywhere, or trivializing all content because of the presence of passives.


I dare to argue that. You are kinda missing the point (and what i am trying to explain) :)  

Passives are passives, like spheres are spheres. Passives are there to make your defenses special. Spheres as well. 

It all depends on how special you want your defenses to be. That is where your personal build comes in and the pool of passives / spheres you want to choose from. The more = the merrier. I don't want to be able to choose from only Speedy Harpoons and Shellshock. I want Speedy Harpoons, Splody Harpoons, Speedy + Splody, Splitting Harpoons, Splitting + Splody + Speedy + Multiple Projectiles (Path of Exile reference, lol. THAT WOULD BE HILARIOUS - Multiple Projectiles). Ping Pong Cannon (bouncing), Mushroom Cannon(poison, petrify (stoned (get it?!:D)), Chicken Cannon (pierce) and many more. 

  • Yes, balance base to base (keeping passives in mind). But. IF we want them to compete with hearty blockades, we need a passive for arcane barrier as well (or a set of spheres). It does not have to be extra HP. It could be a 50% on hit taken chance to shield for % amount of <stat>. Or it could be an extra chance for a knockback so strong, that would knock back and damage even ogres, shattering the skulls of small mobs. Could scale with APprentice (get it? AP Apprentice?:D). Or it could be simply HP Increase based on % of <stat>, just like hearty blockade. But that would ruin the variety, right? Would it be more fun to have more varied passives? It would. The Tank in a game is that beefy guy (or lady) with a shield and a sword and phat armorz. Accordingly, phat defensiz. Roar. Sure, there could be a tanky apprentice approach (item-wise, idea-wise, not stats-wise. Like, some sort of shield / relic / protection ward in one hand and a wand of sort / book / beard (!?:D) in other hand, with plate armor, etc.). Would be interesting. That would actually validate a possible equivalent (passive, sphere, anything) for Squire's Hearty Blockades. This is an RPG game, after all. So for the first classes, Mage / Rogue (Hunter) being glasscannon, Squire being a Major General Armstrong and Monk being He Who Can Bend All Elements (Universal class / high support potential - boost, heal, buff)  is kind of unavoidable.
  • Balance enemies around the targeted playerbase (end game = more experienced players, campaign = more new people) and all of the passives in player's disposal. At worst (temporary or not, if it works out), you could balance things around Ballistas shooting every 3.5 seconds. It would pose a challenge for the new guys with 5s cooldowns and guys with 2s cooldowns could feel a progress. It is a balance issue, not the passives. Tripwire is a passive, Amped Up is a passive, Pyromancer is a passive. How come i do not see people saying anything about those passives ruining the game? Because the game was balanced around that pool of passives. Now we have a couple more passives, so the game needs a balance routine once more to now balance not around the 7 (from the top of my head) passives, but around 17 (estimate, again, first try), including Uber Spheres (because they alter how towers work in the same fashion as recent passives). The first ones were just a stats boost (Tripwire, Amped Up, % values, boost aura boosted defense stats instead of hero stats for particular defenses), now we have a variety of new mechanics (Flamethrower, Bowling Ball (is it that how it's called??), Lightning Strikes) and balancing around them will be harder and take much longer.

The current direction of the game is right on the spot, in my opinion and the only issue i see with it, it will be super difficult to balance perfectly. Gonna be a struggle. One defenses will deal more damage, but sower, only a little kick in the Defense Speed to overpower anything else, but leaving alternatives to how you can complete the map. Others will have more dps when boosted by one source or another (assuming we will have several with different mechanics), thriving where high damage, slow speed defenses would get obliterated (Could even have different mechanics when boosted O_o).

In the end, the more options to build a map (passives, in this case) - the more room for creativity and innovation among the community, resulting in a longevity of the game. 

*Wipes off the sweat.* Now THAT'S SOME TEXT for an introvert, lol. Took some time,  getting my thoughts together to knit understandable sentences. Dang. 

Seph.

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