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pressdelight

Well, I'm done until something changes.

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Well, I'm a huge fan of this entire franchise, but at this point I'm so frustrated I'm done for now.  I've been grinding since the alpha patch and trying to get over the Nightmare hump and I haven't gotten a single useful drop in a long time. 


You play a map that claims Ipwr 200 needed and will drop 195-250.  I'm Ipwr 215+ with all 4 toons at lvl 50 and I can barely get past wave 4.  Only a handful of drops every time and I consistently get gear between 193 and 208, and all gear has useless stats compared with what I got pre-alpha patch.  I haven't had a single drop with both tower stats, and nothing over 208.  I'm either cursed by the RNG, or this whole system is so bugged it's just plain frustrating. 


I'm sure I'll be back after the next patch to see if things are better, but whoever is testing this system before releasing the patches isn't playing the same game I am.

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Gear is there, just not as high drop rates as before, which makes it that much more special when it does drop.


Got this off of a random mob on NM 2 Liferoot. So not only are legendaries out there, but good ones. And it finally proved to me that mobs are again dropping gear.

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It took a few tries to figure out Nightmare, but once you get past that initial pounding, it gets easier. I'm still getting rolled in round 1 of NM 3 but I'm still not fully geared on all of my characters in NM 2 yet.








@pressdelight quote:

Well, I'm a huge fan of this entire franchise, but at this point I'm so frustrated I'm done for now.  I've been grinding since the alpha patch and trying to get over the Nightmare hump and I haven't gotten a single useful drop in a long time. 


You play a map that claims Ipwr 200 needed and will drop 195-250.  I'm Ipwr 215+ with all 4 toons at lvl 50 and I can barely get past wave 4.  Only a handful of drops every time and I consistently get gear between 193 and 208, and all gear has useless stats compared with what I got pre-alpha patch.  I haven't had a single drop with both tower stats, and nothing over 208.  I'm either cursed by the RNG, or this whole system is so bugged it's just plain frustrating. 


I'm sure I'll be back after the next patch to see if things are better, but whoever is testing this system before releasing the patches isn't playing the same game I am.


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@Bob Loblaw |Äpp|* quote:

Gear is there, just not as high drop rates as before, which makes it that much more special when it does drop.


Got this off of a random mob on NM 2 Liferoot. So not only are legendaries out there, but good ones. And it finally proved to me that mobs are again dropping gear.

3299BB4BC1ECCD9DCF3C8DD7374F9F85F0F15773


It took a few tries to figure out Nightmare, but once you get past that initial pounding, it gets easier. I'm still getting rolled in round 1 of NM 3 but I'm still not fully geared on all of my characters in NM 2 yet.








@pressdelight quote:

Well, I'm a huge fan of this entire franchise, but at this point I'm so frustrated I'm done for now.  I've been grinding since the alpha patch and trying to get over the Nightmare hump and I haven't gotten a single useful drop in a long time. 


You play a map that claims Ipwr 200 needed and will drop 195-250.  I'm Ipwr 215+ with all 4 toons at lvl 50 and I can barely get past wave 4.  Only a handful of drops every time and I consistently get gear between 193 and 208, and all gear has useless stats compared with what I got pre-alpha patch.  I haven't had a single drop with both tower stats, and nothing over 208.  I'm either cursed by the RNG, or this whole system is so bugged it's just plain frustrating. 


I'm sure I'll be back after the next patch to see if things are better, but whoever is testing this system before releasing the patches isn't playing the same game I am.

You are not wrong as such but it's a fact that the beginning of nm1 is kinda broken. It doesn'tl oot that good items compared to the difficulty. But when you reach end of nm1 the game starts again to be playable, it's just the entrance in nm1 (plus the fact that most of the stuff has been ruined because of the terrible rerolled devs made).


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What really took the steam out guys is that a few days before the alpha patch I was able to start farming NM1.  I had some nice gear that was 243+ and was getting tower stats.  I had finally equipped a couple of my toons with this gear.  Then the re-roll happened.  Not a single piece of gear I had from the re-roll had tower stats, so I was completely screwed.  My Ipwr dropped big time and now I'm dealing with ridiculous grinding to get back to where I had gotten. 

I know the gear is there.  It is just too tedious and to much work for the meager reward. 

It sting more because I had started NM and was enjoying it and then I lost all my good gear to the re-roll. 

You know, it's kinda like writing a 30 page essay finishing and then having your hard drive crash and you have to start over doing exactly what you just did, only your hearts not in it.  When things are fixed I'll be back.

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Ya i would agree with the last post.

For the Time Sink this game is its not worth playing. The Dev's don't get it, there to busy Trying to shove there "Builds" down your throat's to really hear any thing we have to say. I don't see this game being anything other then Find the exploit From here on out. 

Just give it a thumbs down in steam and move on.

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@pressdelight quote:

What really took the steam out guys is that a few days before the alpha patch I was able to start farming NM1.  I had some nice gear that was 243+ and was getting tower stats.  I had finally equipped a couple of my toons with this gear.  Then the re-roll happened.  Not a single piece of gear I had from the re-roll had tower stats, so I was completely screwed.  My Ipwr dropped big time and now I'm dealing with ridiculous grinding to get back to where I had gotten.  

Exactly this. All the gear got jigged around, and the only reason most of it was viable was from the nice passives from the weekend events. Now that those are gone (and gear only drops with it on nightmare), we run into the same issue as Mistymire back in the day, needing gear from the difficulty you're trying to get into


In other words


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@Gothraga quote:

Ya i would agree with the last post.

For the Time Sink this game is its not worth playing. The Dev's don't get it, there to busy Trying to shove there "Builds" down your throat's to really hear any thing we have to say. I don't see this game being anything other then Find the exploit From here on out. 

Just give it a thumbs down in steam and move on.


@FuNiOnZ quote:


@pressdelight quote:

What really took the steam out guys is that a few days before the alpha patch I was able to start farming NM1.  I had some nice gear that was 243+ and was getting tower stats.  I had finally equipped a couple of my toons with this gear.  Then the re-roll happened.  Not a single piece of gear I had from the re-roll had tower stats, so I was completely screwed.  My Ipwr dropped big time and now I'm dealing with ridiculous grinding to get back to where I had gotten.  

Exactly this. All the gear got jigged around, and the only reason most of it was viable was from the nice passives from the weekend events. Now that those are gone (and gear only drops with it on nightmare), we run into the same issue as Mistymire back in the day, needing gear from the difficulty you're trying to get into


In other words


oQg7WOv.jpg

These are issues that we're looking into fixing. We want the progression into NM1 and through NM2 and NM3 to feel rewarding without needing builds. From what we've heard, this is not currently the case, so it's a high-priority issue to fix. NM4 is meant to be a challenge for the hardcore players -- something that you'll have to figure out with the community through theorycrafting and build sharing. It's supposed to rely on strategy and build use with a minor iPWR reward bump to show your friends that you've done it. NM4 is not meant for everyone -- it's supposed to be for those who want to rise to the challenge. It'll take numerous balance passes for us to get there, and we appreciate everyone's patience. 

There are only a few builds in the game right now, but in the future when there are a ton of build passives/spheres and you can mix-and-match them together to make your own, this feeling should become more rewarding. We're also talking about changes to the passive system to reinforce that feeling of moving forward instead of constantly feeling like you're trying to find a needle in the haystack, which someone made a great thread about sometime last week.

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@iamisom quote:

These are issues that we're looking into fixing. We want the progression into NM1 and through NM2 and NM3 to feel rewarding without needing builds. From what we've heard, this is not currently the case, so it's a high-priority issue to fix. NM4 is meant to be a challenge for the hardcore players -- something that you'll have to figure out with the community through theorycrafting and build sharing. It's supposed to rely on strategy and build use with a minor iPWR reward bump to show your friends that you've done it. NM4 is not meant for everyone -- it's supposed to be for those who want to rise to the challenge. It'll take numerous balance passes for us to get there, and we appreciate everyone's patience. 

There are only a few builds in the game right now, but in the future when there are a ton of build passives/spheres and you can mix-and-match them together to make your own, this feeling should become more rewarding. We're also talking about changes to the passive system to reinforce that feeling of moving forward instead of constantly feeling like you're trying to find a needle in the haystack, which someone made a great thread about sometime last week.

This sounds good.

However, even with the relatively few available builds right now the chance of getting good gear (i.e. passives and right tower stats) feels unrewarding against time spent trying for it.

Heaven knows I can take a grind but with the current drop rates, introducing more builds and therefore more passives may only make this worse.

Something for the devs to think about.

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@mkjo quote:\

This sounds good.

However, even with the relatively few available builds right now the chance of getting good gear (i.e. passives and hero stats) feels unrewarding against time spent trying for it.

Heaven knows I can take a grind but with the current drop rates, introducing more builds and therefore more passives may only make this worse.

Something to think about... 

Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

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@iamisom quote:

Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

Personally, I'd love to see these set passives done as item type set bonuses rather than just another stat adding to the RNG.  Perhaps we could see the return of the gear types  from DD1?  So for example the "Pristine" armor types might be a set that does one thing, and the "Chainmail" armor types give another set.  From there you could give map specific rewards another visit, like "Oh, these particular maps drop this armor type, and these other maps drop another type".  This would, however, require that as far as endgame is concerned, all maps dropped the same ipwr, but just different sets, and were balanced accordingly. 

At the end of the day, something that sets these build sets away from the RNG of the loot rolls would go a long way.  The sets are nice features, but their existence makes any gear that doesn't have them garbage.  In addition, it gets worse when trying to gear multiple characters.  An item that is great on my huntress will never be valuable to my apprentice even if they use the same primary stats, so the gear grind gets worse the more characters you have.

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I concur. Currently additional people make the map feel exponentially harder. What I can do with 2 people getting through a few waves, 4 people wipe it on wave 1. I can solo some NM1 maps currently, but add more people using the same build/setup and it's just a wipefest. Every time I've added more people or joined a map that got more people, it's been like banging our heads against a titanium wall. Maybe I just suck now and all my previous adventures in DD2 have been due to luck.

Other than the fact that it seems that only bosses end game still drop loot it's just not fun. Oh, also other than the fact that I played several of both end game and normal over the weekend, I never saw a monk staff let alone more than probably 2 legendaries, total. Maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but the increased drop rate doesn't seem to have existed, and it's felt like this as well on other "bonus" weekends. I wanted hard sure, but this goes beyond hard into not even fun. The risk:reward isn't even close to how hard it is. To put it into perspective, I now have the ogre portion of the monthly done and it wasn't done doing easy easy-insane difficulty (well maybe a few when I was getting some exp on a huntress).

The only option I can think of is to try to farm NM1 for lower ipwr gear and hope I get legendaries with better passives, which is not exciting at all (again, probably mainly going to the fact I've never seen loot off a non-boss in end game, I have a few times in normal free play). 

Oh, and not to mention the map "wins" are also currently pretty useless since it's far too hard to actually win with a group, and I'm not a fan of solo play usually.

I liked, as far as you can like farming, farming liferoot before trying to get drops, and before the wipe xroads/wyvern incursions. Now it just hurts, a lot and isn't fun.

tl;dr

I agree with the OP and don't intend playing much in it's current state, and I have about a dozen people on my friend's list who feel the same.

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Thanks for the response iamisom, as well as the comments from other community members.   I have been reading the comments from other threads and am aware that the discussion is happening and fixes are in the works.

I think the sequence of events that led up to the last patch and how they affect the community were particularly damaging. 

A huge part of the problem is that you have 3 completely different segments of players.  Casuals, Dedicated and Uber Hardcore - I eat sleep and breath DD.

Casuals don't put much time into it and as such don't get too bothered when changes happen.  Little investment and little frustration.

The dedicated players have invested lots of time into the game but aren't usually the ones finding exploits and ripping through the entire game and bragging on the forums about how they finished NM4 in 3 days. 

Then you have the Hardcore guys who often live for finding exploits and ripping through to end of the game in the first week of release. 

Usually it's the dedicated and hardcore guys posting on the forums and the dedicated guys are often pointing out the exploits and bugs while the exploiters are just busy farming while the farming is good.

Trendy steps in and decides that the Hardcore exploiters have progressed too quickly and increase difficulty to help balance.   Problem is that you can't balance the game for guys with ill gotten gear.  It absolutely crushes the guys who are playing the game properly and feel like the progress was reasonable. 

I've got 600+ hours into the game and I haven't used any of the so called exploits.  I was just getting through NM1 before the pre alpha patch.  At the same time I'm reading posts from guys talking about gear exploits and how they are farming NM4 gear, and I check their profiles and they have put half the time I have into the game.  I'm pretty sure I'm a pretty decent builder/strategist and I'm very familiar with build techniques that work.

IMO there is a big problem right now in implementing balancing patches based off community feedback for progress and gear drops etc.  I think it's fair to suggest that the casual and dedicated players make up a better percentage of your average DD 2 players.  These will also be the players who are less likely to go on the forums and complain.  When a set of players go on the forums complaining that they are on NM4 and the game is way too easy this is not the set of players that make up the majority of players who are trying to enjoy the game.  So you patch and balance to Hardcore players and exploiters and the other players get squashed and frustrated just as they are finally making headway.

I play solo as well as with my 2 sons who really enjoy the game.  I think we all felt a little betrayed when we lost our good gear and progress because exploiters and ridiculous hardcore players complained that it was too easy and Trendy quickly pandered to that set of players by implemented an update that set us back and made the game unreasonably hard. 

I look forward to future hotfixes and updates.  I know this stuff is getting addressed.  My concern is that Trendy is not filtering the feedback properly or in a way that makes sense to the majority of players and not just a small set of players who are ripping through the game due to exploits. 


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I don't remember who or on which topic exactly, but someone commented on the possibility of removing passives (or at least some of them) from equipment rolls and moving 'em to a separate item, socketable into armor for example. They could be a new type of drop, stay nightmare-only, still roll values and be a "apply once per item (like "enchants" in other games) or be permanent / movable (like FFVII "Materia", for example).

The point is, and you guys already noticed: if you get 10% chance for a good drop, then 5% chance to roll the wanted stats, then 5% chance to roll the passives that you want, all this on the same item, then you end up with 0.025% (!!!) chance of getting the "perfect" item... for that map and that slot. Now try doing that for all slots, with maps that take 1h+ to finish, and with waves that don't give much when you fail... and you get a taste of what you've put us through. If you add passives and new stats, the result is watering that chance down even more.
(then repeat the process for the next upgrade in iPwr... for at least 4 characters... Suuuper fun!)

... to try and stay positive: there are many, many ways to split that one random roll into other systems. Dunno, take a look at Dragon Nest, maybe.

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@iamisom quote:


@mkjo quote:\

This sounds good.

However, even with the relatively few available builds right now the chance of getting good gear (i.e. passives and hero stats) feels unrewarding against time spent trying for it.

Heaven knows I can take a grind but with the current drop rates, introducing more builds and therefore more passives may only make this worse.

Something to think about... 

Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

My suggestion is to ditch builds being passives and add them as spheres. There is no possible way to make getting the gear we want with the passives we want satisfying down the line when we have a dozen or more different builds without forcing us to do modes we don't care for. The core parts of builds (aka the ones that dictate how the build works) should be spheres, the effect of a particular part of a build would determine which size sphere it is, like sploody harpoon would be an uber and something like speedy harpoon would be a large or medium. Passives would be what they were previously before builds as well as new universal build passives that would affect all builds which would basically be the power of  what is in said sphere slots rather than the power of a singular build part. 

Basically spheres would determine our build specialty while passives determine the power/effectiveness of those spheres, each sphere would have it's own math built on that determines how much the passive would affect said sphere. For examples it could be two passives, one that affects "offensive" tower spheres like the harpoon or blaze balloon, and another that affects "defensive" tower spheres like the serenity aura or blockade.

This would once again allow us to hand down gear to our other builders as we upgrade something since it would be universal passives rather than class/tower specific passives and also allow us to use a dps hero and still get gear for our builders, and finally make it far easier to get gear that we can actually use since it doesn't have to roll through a pool of a dozen or more different passives. The same sort of thing could be applied to hero "dps" focused builds once those start getting added.

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iamisom


how about this. it just hit me. what if we, players choose what stat we want before starting the map, lets say there is new menu added to the game, it would work like this.

1. i select ipwr map i want to play. NOTE: everyday, map you can to this changes, so you wont be able to abuse system by doing easy maps.

2. after that i get to choose one gear. for example lets go for helmet.

3. if i choose epic helmet, map is not too hard to complete. but if choose mythical or legendary it gets significantly harder.

4. after choosing helmet tier i get to choose what stats i want or leave it at random. NOTE: if i leave at random, difficulty stays same but if let's say i want specific stats on items, it gets even harder. 

5. and last part of choosing are the passives, but lets make it even more difficult. i can choose passives i want but with every choice it really nightmare, which is nearly impossible to handle. 

6. when the map ends we get that reward from chest. 

(0. to make this more 'special' how about player must pay X amount of gold to enter this mode)


another note: chance of getting tier you chose is 100%, chance of getting stats are 50%, chances of getting first passive is 20%, second 10% and third 5 or even less. so there is still RNG required to get what you want. just to clarify it must be nearly impossible to choose everything and get what you want. i think it added challenge to the game and one that actually gives you feeling that you are progressing.


ANOTHER suggestion:

making onslaught more than just 6 hours of collecting pet food.

what if we can make our gear stronger by playing the game?

got that nice passives on weapon but you don't want to sacrifice them because other items gives you +20 more DP? no problem. because in this onslaught you can upgrade you gear with every wave.

what if there was new system, when we start playing onslaught we can choose one equipment we have on us. after every 5 wave is completed you weapon grows stronger, it's ipwr grows, it's stats grows, passives become stronger. speed of this growth is depending on how hard onslaught is. how will it work:

1. choose onslaught, choose difficulty. harder the game is, greater the stat gain is.

2. after map is loaded you get to choose what gear you want to upgrade.

3. you choose how many waves you're going to do.

4. let's say you said 20 waves. if you complete 20 waves you increase you gear, (lets just say random number here) by 10 ipwr. BUT if you lose and can't complete 20 waves you lose gained stats. also you can choose to continue if you reach chosen amount of waves. but this is high risk high reward situation. if you go for more waves, you get more power but difficulty level of the game is increased even more. if you lose, you lose stats, even stats you gained while reaching wave 20. (by waves i meant rounds).


Both of this suggestions are meant to bring more challenge. both of them are for endgame content and i think with this system player will feel progression. players can choose to play on hard and EARN what he wants, instead of praying for RNGesus. i repeat, this must be hard, really hard. iamisom if you or any dev is reading this please let me know how you feel about it, if you are afraid of saying anything about in on forums, please PM me. I'm really curious how devs would feel about it, even if it's bad suggestion.


OPENED THREAD ABOUT THIS

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@-venOm- quote:

iamisom


how about this. it just hit me. what if we, players choose what stat we want before starting the map, lets say there is new menu added to the game, it would work like this.


I think the problem here is although we all have a love/hate relationship with RNG it also rules out a completely different element of abuse.  For the guys that find progress exploits, you still can't beat the RNG.  If you could start picking your stat and upgrading gear you wouldn't be farming gear anymore.   It would get very boring farming. You would just find a piece of gear you like and start grinding the stats.  Loses any excitement in a new find.

I actually have so much a problem with passives and gear.  It has been pointed out that it never feels as rewarding with the current minimal drop and numbers.  I know it's all relative, but in DD1 and DDE it really did feel like you were gaining exponentially due to the higher number of drops and currency inflation values.  Yes a penny that buys a penny worth of candy achieves the same thing as a million coins buying a candy worth a million.   It's all relative, but it feels so much more kick ass than the small drop and set value of items. 

I don't think they need to reinvent the gear stat wheel.  Just make it more rewarding and stop punishing the dedicated players who are using exploits.

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@pressdelight quote:

-snip-

that's why i said that it is a choice. you can choose to and try to upgrade your gear, also as i've said, both suggestions are for endgame. do you know that chance of getting perfect drop is 1/90000 (some guy did calculations on forum a while ago). what would be more fun to do, playing same maps 90000 times or challenging game and yourself? i will clarify that system i suggested MUST be very hard. possibly HARDEST the game has to offer. true nightmare mode. where one mistake can mean death of crystal. i'd enjoy a game like that. you might don't agree with me, and that's fine. i respect your opinion.  

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@harry4550 quote:


@mkjo quote:

Heaven knows I can take a grind 

lol o really????

There's a huge difference in "grinding" and the entire system feeling unrewarding, and tedious. I play hours in diablo 3, at times without finding an item I *need.* That doesn't bother me though. Because on the journey to looking for those specific pieces, I at least accumulate enough power to feel like I'm making progress and the game getting a bit easier.

Right now the game feels completely unrewarding, for the difficulty. And the stats on the gear is so damned insignificant, it feels like an entire waste. Who gives two ***s about 2-5% on something? I sure as hell don't. What makes gear systems like diablo feel rewarding, is the massive jumps in power you can accumulate if you find really good stuff. I found a DP/tripwire bow when this patch launched, and laughed because I don't give a damn about such low percentages, and it honestly isn't going to change all that much.

If people enjoy the current state, that's fine, keep playing to your hearts content, but there's a reason this is a HUGE topic among people, and why I hardly see anyone on my friends list playing DD2 right now, and that says a lot because there's some pretty hardcore people that play on there. 

[[4370,users]]

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@iamisom quote:Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

One quick way to help is to change the relative frequency of weapons/relics to armor. We have 4 armor slots to fill and only one weapon slot, one relic slot and possibly a shield slot. Armor should make up 2/3 of the drops. Also, more than one costume chest per map is tremendous overkill.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:


@iamisom quote:Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

One quick way to help is to change the relative frequency of weapons/relics to armor. ***We have 4 armor slots to fill and only one weapon slot, one relic slot ****and possibly a shield slot. Armor should make up 2/3 of the drops. Also, more than one costume chest per map is tremendous overkill.

so much this... tired of seeing 90% weapon + totem drops, and 10% armor... it literally just does not make sense.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:


@iamisom quote:Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

One quick way to help is to change the relative frequency of weapons/relics to armor. We have 4 armor slots to fill and only one weapon slot, one relic slot and possibly a shield slot. Armor should make up 2/3 of the drops. Also, more than one costume chest per map is tremendous overkill.

Lockboxes should only come out of the chest, every special enemy kill dropping one is annoying.  I end up getting just as many lockboxes as armor pieces a good chunk of the time thanks to the whole weapons and relics dropping much more often than armor. Special enemies often drop a lockbox and 2-3 weapons/relics, occasionally a pet box/ egg and if i am lucky a single armor piece. The weapon and relic drop rates wouldn't be so bad if they were even remotely useful. I have yet to get a single item for any slot that has been an upgrade since the alpha patch when doing runs 50+ ipwr over my current gear and none of my gear is even upgraded.

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@iamisom quote:


@mkjo quote:\

This sounds good.

However, even with the relatively few available builds right now the chance of getting good gear (i.e. passives and hero stats) feels unrewarding against time spent trying for it.

Heaven knows I can take a grind but with the current drop rates, introducing more builds and therefore more passives may only make this worse.

Something to think about... 

Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

Maybe do more with the whole sphere system? maybe even add more slots for passives for new builds and make spheres drop from bosses only (or even major bosses like betsy), so that once you have them, you have them forever, so theres not a major increase in fishing for good loot which causes an overkill of grinding.

edit: i see someone already mentioned adding more spheres for the passive effects:)

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Get rid of all these passives and just make them all spheres.  All these passives and spheres are making things so convoluted and it just seems WAY WAY OVER ENGINEERED.  It just seems as though the idea is to add complexity with "builds" with passives on gear and modifiers with spheres, but it's causing more frustration than anything.  How is it decided what becomes a passive and what becomes a sphere?  It just doesn't make any sense.  Please please please get rid of all the passives and just make them spheres.  

I also don't understand why the attribute point system got ditched.  Attribute Points + Spheres and things would of be fine IMO.  

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@iamisom quote:


@mkjo quote:\

This sounds good.

However, even with the relatively few available builds right now the chance of getting good gear (i.e. passives and hero stats) feels unrewarding against time spent trying for it.

Heaven knows I can take a grind but with the current drop rates, introducing more builds and therefore more passives may only make this worse.

Something to think about... 

Yeah, that's what the "needle in the haystack" thread hit on very well. How would you suggest we address this? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

To me there are a few ways to adress this and also sugessted b4 me by others:

Reroll passive kinda like in d3 only for the passive. So maybe re roll one of the passive stats or one main stat ala d3 so you can get almost the exact item u want and then work on rerolling the stat you dont want for the one you want.

Or you could lift the passives out and have them be socket items that you can get from drops and put into items. With the different passives beeing one specific item each.

Or have them work like socket items (drops on map and such) but instead have sphere slots and not slots on items. Having them drop from mobs and not buyable and then have something like the sphere slots for them to be equiped in. 

Also on a sidenote,Im probably most for either of the socket options, also the socket item/sphere option gives the possibility to have other passives like hero/tower crit be among the possible passive drops.

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