Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Esorath

Nightmare feedback and next steps

Recommended Posts

The problem with the current setup is that you are forced to play in a certain way to obtain success.


For example. For NM1+2 you are pretty much forced into playing with at least 3 squires to hold the 3 lanes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Elandrian quote:

Loot

Just one suggestion I can think of, and it might not be the best, but hey it's something.

Make all loot useful in one way or another. Either implement a way to re-roll stats on gear for horizontal progression, or change the way that loot works.

Make loot that drops, part of one of a pre-determined set of gear/build.  I'm going to give examples, but don't hound me if the stat weights are min/max (JEEZ ELAN THIS STAT WOULD BE WAY BETTER FOR THIS CLASS UR THE WURST), just trying to show examples.

For example: Tons of random loot drops in a level, but each piece is itemized to have stats that are part of a predetermined USEFUL set.  You go and look at one item, and it has Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, and randomized squire passives and/or crit.  You think "nice, a piece of cannon gear!"  OR a piece drops with Defense Power, Defense Health, and some aura range bonuses and you're like "ooo, monk builder."...  Maybe the gear isn't the best ROLL of the stats or passives, so you have to search for better, but at least it's useful!

What if someone wants hero hp and defense hp on the same item?


@Esorath quote:

So, as one of the guys working on Nightmare balance, I would just like to thank everyone for their feedback so far on Nightmare balance. I am personally reading every single  thread and making copious notes about potential changes we can make to Nightmare to make it more fun and more rewarding.


Here’s some of the feedback I’ve gathered so far:

  1. It’s not fun.
  2. It’s too hard.
  3. Insane is easy but NM1 is too hard.
  4. It’s not rewarding when you do complete waves.
  5. It takes too long to do Nightmare runs (also hearing this about other playlists).

Please dont make Nightmare too easy. Some times its not a good idea to hear at the community. I quote someone from the steam forum:

@Quentin

People in this thread are the reason there are no hard games anymore. 3 days into the patch and can't farm the hardest endgame mode? Lets cry on the forum. Seriously this community is 90% lazy afk farming noobs who don't want any challenge. Just play on easy for yourself.

Sure it shouldnt take 1 year to finish a nm4 map. But not in 3 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difficulty side is fine.  The problem is the reward side and it isn't about the number or quality of drops, it's about the fundamental design/structure of the gear (though having things drop from all mobs would certainly fix some of the psychology/motivation issues).  It's the same problem the game has had since builds where introduced, just highlighted now that you can't brute force your way around it by steamrolling content.  It was harder to find great pieces in DD1 and yet gearing up was more satisfying.  Plenty of discussion elsewhere as to why that is the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Zuqual quote:

 It was harder to find great pieces in DD1 and yet gearing up was more satisfying.  Plenty of discussion elsewhere as to why that is the case.

Yup,  Legendaries almost drops more than trans did in  dd1 (except later maps in survival nm/mm).

This is what makes the loot boring to me in dd2 compared to dd1

1.  Progression in general was more satisfying since no limited hero deck,  I think I had 15+ heroes, at  least 10  at level 100. I could always find a reason to lvl one more character to fill a certain role, that contributed to my overall build. In most rpg's I  don't  really care that much for alts, but just stick to  my favorite 1 or 2 heroes.  But in dd1it actually felt rewarding to lvl up alts. I can't think of any other game where leveling up many characters made more sense than it did in dd.  So you can imagine my dissapointment when I first launched dd2 .

2.  Supreme/Legendary was much more rare, not lots of people had a legit full supreme/legendary set, so you always had that gear drop to hunt for, not saying there wasn't problems with the loot drops in dd1, but it was  still way more enjoyable. In dd2 it's just get to the highest ipwr map, grind grind grind, not long after you have heroes in full legendary/myth, and the search goes on for minimal stat upgrades and the right passives. The lack of sets also makes it less interresting. 

3. The trading taverns made selling loot very fun, to setup everything for a sale, and talk with random people in your tavern, such a nice change from boring auction houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Esorath

I am just going to comment on the biggest bugs in nightmare right now that need immediate attention.


Throne Room

-Ogre spawning wave 1

-contrary to the lane wisp colors, the map does not have any resistances to magic or physical damage

-none of the mobs have any buffs such as hearty, grounded etc.

-ability to put blockades in the spawning circle where the "curtains were fixed"

-auto kill function is not working as intended; mobs that are delayed long enough are getting murdered mid-lane


The spawning circles need an additional area where you cannot build, as currently you can completely block them off and bunch up the mobs so bad that only a few can attack at a time and hard core delay tactics are being used that trigger the auto kill function. You can sit there and heal your cades for long enough that all the enemies will die.


In regards to the Ogre spawning wave 1.. Put the ogre back to wave 1 for all maps, but just remove any gear drops from him completely. This way he serves as a gear check for the players, and keeps extremely low iPWR equipped players from "failing forward". If you can beat wave 1 with the ogre, you truly deserve to collect any loot that may drop on wave 2, regardless of if you complete it or not.


*EDIT

In regards to the gear checks from the ogres, if you don't want people failing forward too much, you could implement a system where, say, myths can only be obtained from wave 4-10, and legendaries only on waves 8-10. Or at least make it so only the highest iPWR items can be obtained from those final 3 waves to make completing a map more rewarding.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't make it too easy or too rewarding, it will kill any longevity in the game. Increase gold a bit where we can actually upgrade gear to progress. I don't want to get to nm1, farm a map a few times and move on to nm2,3,4.... then what? I would love to eventually see challenges on ever map just like DD1 had.

Definitely down for cutting the time to complete some maps back. Also the inactive timer is too short. I finished the last wave last night on a map, had to get up to take the dog out, came back and I was in my tavern. Didn't get to grab any loot (which was gone because of the stupid scavenger) and I didn't get to open my chest... Terrible! I hate the scavenger right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Trendy! so if you ask me, besides this balance, we need you to kinda balance the maps a bit, right now the first map is usually not worth playing since it's too hard, compared to liferoot it's hard, but liferoot is much more rewarding. I agree to your suggestions from the start of this thread, but instead of scaling everything down, maybe it could be better to scale the early maps down quite a bit, but only scale the later maps a little bit, so we can get a smoother progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually we need loot from all mobs, not only special on NM. So far every run is challenging is fun, but there are only few drops from special/ogres from which 95% is trash. Make it like DD1, tons of loot from there you pick what you want, rest autosell at beginning of next wave. Goblins with almost impossible chance, fat mobs like orc/drakis with average chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found boots today. Dropped from a usual monster. 

So it works. The chances are messed up though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

after 4 days of trying to bet any nm1 map I cant. I have the stats but as a solo player. I mean how are you suppose to kill the 4 orcs that are at you cades with 95k hp no dps, because I cant fit one in. Average defense of all my toons is at 1700 only do 976 so it would take 2 to 3 mins to burn down one orc and they take 1/3rd of my cades In one hit I cant repair both cades fast enough.

1. Drakin I have tried every thing I can think of 2 drakins will drop my cades of 96k in two hits or there breath weapon I just don't see how it is to be done. 

2. wereboars/ the pig guys well they are so tough you cant even kill one before they hit both cades for almost 22k to both

3. Spawns how are you suppose to burn down 4 orc's who seems to have an extended range 4 orc's get to  your cades are gone almost after the first attack. they are cracked with white light coming out of them. my point being is for example 4 orcs spawn get to you cades and have 90% on one and the other 3 have full. they hit your cades you start repairing them you see the second wave of them coming 1 orc dies the rest are at 75% and you get 4 more.

the same goes with the 8 to 10 wereboars that spawn. same with drakin 3 to 4 spawn at a time.

4. if you manage to stun or group up any of the above the will start walking over your cades the goblins will push others over them.

5 ogres lets talk about these snot ball your defense slow way down one swing cades are gone. they hit your towers behind and they are gone. walks to your core 1 hit its gone cant tank them at all they just destroy

okay so there are some of the things I had to say now how to make it better maybe not some many spawn maybe more du and starting mana. Don't get me wrong I don't want to steam roll over everything or make it not hard to do but right it seems impossible. there are those that have done it but I haven't heard of any solo players most will say use 3 squires. thanks for reading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Drag, 

I run solo and can beat most 230 and 242 NM1 maps (though its a struggle to get through the first few waves on all but a couple).

Explosive Traps, Elemental Traps, Frostie Buffing Towers, and Barricades (and Of course AAs).

Once each trap is at 2 chevrons, the frosties will push them each close to 10k when I got 3 or 4 beams going.   With Freeze sphere they bottle neck on 3 to 4 traps which is deals 30k to  40k DPS.

My cades are only 95k, and they can take getting beat on by Drakins so I am not sure how yours are getting 2 shot.  Usually when the Drakens aren't frozen I need to Repair them but you should always be looking to repair your barricades.

Also, I always run my Monk Builder as DPS.  In the early waves (0 to 1 chrevron) the Traps can't usually handle Drakins and Orcs.    The Monks Poleslam 1 shots anything frozen.  With 3 to 4 frosties per lane you will Freeze 2 to 4 Orcs or Drakin at a time and can smash them to tiny ice bits.  So with 0 Hero gear he can 1 shot thanks to the freeze sphere.

That being said, it doesn't matter.  Upgrades are ***.   Spent all weekend, I think I broke 14 hours.  I am maybe up 30 DP on my builders.   Don't bother doing Nightmare till they address the Loot, or tone it down a little bit.

On another note: I cannot see a non-frost attrition build working using the suggested IPWR for the maps.    We pretty much have only 1 build option at this point.





Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've found that it wasn't too difficult to break into nightmare, it wasn't easy though. The only issue was that the gear that drops is mostly useless to me.  I can't replace my lower iPwr gear with new higher stats gear because it doesn't have the passives I need. Gear rarely seems to have both the stats I need with the passives I need. I still have some gear on my squire thats just for the hearty blockade with trash stats. If gear dropped from all mobs after wave 1 like everyone wants, then that might alleviate the issue somewhat. However, I'm starting to agree with others that passives going into special sockets in gear is a better idea than the current system. It would be much less frustrating than getting a tier 4 item without any stats you can use. I'd rather get a tier 4 item with good stats and three empty passives sockets. 


@RedL1ne quote:
  • Give us a chance to play not as DPS char. Cause there's no way to build and farm some specific gear in solo mode.

I don't have a dps character but I'm farming Liferoot Forest NM1 solo and can use any of my heros to (hopefully)  get the corresponding weaps and passives. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think NM1 is that bad but jumping into NM2 with all 340 to 350 IPWR and getting smoked on wave 1 on first stage of NM2 is wrong.  the stats on the gear just needs to be raised or the mobs lowered please.


You guys are doing a great job keep it up.  One more thing can we get an option to see what games are in progress like in DD1, that way we can find matches a lot faster!!!


Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

about the time to finish. Would it be able to make a spawn timer that starts when the wave dies and having a maximum amount of time aswell so that its not just going to be a wall of frost towers keeping it blocked for spawning:) lets say wave spawns and there is set timer before the next spawn but if killed faster they spawn faster. dont know up this would make it harder because of the full on pressure it would give you ( but then put a 10 sec delay timer in there)

on having items scale better / rewarding to get atm the boost for Hp blocks are a set amount from all the gear i have seen from 240 to 600 IP green 0-2% blue 2-3% purple 3% and legendary 5% it seems abit broken its the same on every ip we progress throw. and when you say it recommended should match the difficulty i guess you all so mean Nm 4 req ip900 but highest to get is 700 atm ^^

but most of all the wall of progressing in nightmare its the same for EG Nm1 to IN nm1 or EG nm2. i have seen same problem ppl ease throw nm1 going IN nm1 and getting flushed on the first wave. and this is really one of the killers in my book, and why i do think this is what needs a fix super fast.                                  (EG=EndGame IN= Incursion)

of the top of my head i see a fast fix would be scale down difficulty down on the first pair of maps and the items to be something in between. so you in fact do those maps instead of liferoot to you puke. and having special items on each map like the broken bow from ramparts. i think that would make the maps a bit more go to. 100% sure liferoot still will be the farming spot for gear to progress into next tier unless betsy get a proper fix

hope it gives some meaning early morning and not that great at spelling 




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Nelly quote:



Please dont make Nightmare too easy. Some times its not a good idea to hear at the community. I quote someone from the steam forum:

@Quentin

People in this thread are the reason there are no hard games anymore. 3 days into the patch and can't farm the hardest endgame mode? Lets cry on the forum. Seriously this community is 90% lazy afk farming noobs who don't want any challenge. Just play on easy for yourself.

Sure it shouldnt take 1 year to finish a nm4 map. But not in 3 days.

I agree that nighmare should be a challenge HOWEVER you should feel like you're making some progress while doing so.  I can tell you when I've run nightmare, either solo or with a friend, I don't feel like I'm making any progress.  If anything it feels like it's RNG based on what mobs spawn in the lane determines how far I go into the first round...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@GettinCawky quote:

I agree that nighmare should be a challenge HOWEVER you should feel like you're making some progress while doing so.  I can tell you when I've run nightmare, either solo or with a friend, I don't feel like I'm making any progress.  If anything it feels like it's RNG based on what mobs spawn in the lane determines how far I go into the first round... 

It's probably ALL RNG fault, but still. I feel like making progress, doing NM1 the last couple days. I find Legendary items fairly often, but not too often so i'm quite excited when "Lego" drops. I think the rates are good for Legendary items. Just the chances of dropping a legendary ring or hero-focused gear are what gets on your nerves sometimes :c

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you look at removing split res from dual lanes, also, flying lanes that follow walking lanes with different res, also bosses that have different res to the other walking stuff.  These things increase the difficulty beyond what is the recommended ipwr level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have a friend who managed to get ipw345 but he still cant beat nm1

@Hugeau quote:

I'm not a regular poster or anything but this thread got me itching.

This is mostly regarding solo play. 

I think, asides from the step from insane to nightmare the balance between NM 1-4 is simply not there. I've been tweaking my builds and I can literally afk on NM1, yet I do not even stand a remote chance of beating NM2, the gaps are just enormous. This is not a good progress curve in my opinion, this is simply beyond hard or challenging content (that's what nightmare 1). The problem is there is no way to progress on gear, the gear that drops op NM1 simply isn't beating NM2 (I haven't tried multiplayer yet, I normally like the added challenge of solo play).  Overall I think the monster HP in nightmare is just way and way to high, 200k hp on wave 1 in NM2? Good luck beating that with i285!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@garadios4 quote:

i have a friend who managed to get ipw345 but he still cant beat nm1

He MUST be doing something wrong, lol. 
Seriously, been farming NM1 for a few days straight now, getting more and more upgrades and it's going easier and easier with each upgrade. Maybe your friend doesn't have builder heroes? 
I don't know... with ipwr of 320-330 (something around those lines) i can beat NM1 Incursion maps now. Hard, but doable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ipwer Locked off Nightmares suggestion.


Admittedly this would come in after the curve has been sorted out but here goes.

You've complete insane mode (yay) Time for NM1. In order to "unlock" NM1 there should be an ipwr requirement. If you have an ipwr of I don't know lets say 230 then you can get into NM1 if your ipwr is lower than 230 then you should not be able to get into NMs. So its kind of like a gear check.

Once finally into NMs the item power of weapons should steadily increase as the maps get higher. so 230-235 gear NM1 first map to ipwr 330 for nm1 Betsy. Then you repeat the process. Have NM2 locked off until you have an item power of 330+, and so on and so forth until NM4. This way...those people who do have characters who can play NM4 cannot boost lower friends too much. Forcing more people to play through the game for themselves and learn the way most of us have had to.....by playing the game.

So yeah as mentioned it just an idea, and on paper it would work but in practise time would tell. Thats one thing I can say for Trendy is taking everything on board and your willingness to implement new ideas is great....on paper. But it does seem so hap-hazard sometimes...it just seems like you throw things into the game without really thinking about it or testing. :/

To borrow a quote from Dr Ian Malcolm out of Jurassic Park:

Ian: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot for this proposed changes: we really need them.

At this point, even if i like this game and spent like 400hrs in it, i had to stop play waiting something like that.

I was unable to end a NM1 match after last update and this was so frustrating that i switch to another game. 

I was following forum waiting for some initiative and i apreciated to know game will be again playable at some point in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, [[83330,users]] , that idea is already implemented. Half of it. Nightmare 1 maps are divided into 3 tiers now:

  1. 230-250
  2. 245-290
  3. 285-350
  4. 300-340 (Incursions only. All of them)
The same goes for Nightmare 2 and 3. They are 340-475 and 460-600 accordingly. The half that is not implemented, is ipwr restrictions. 

Nightmare 4 is another dimention, lol. Followed by the idea of "THE hardest content in the game", it is at 580-700, but the monsters are way tougher than in NM2 and 3 (Scalling-wise. Their HP / damage scales up much more inbetween tiers. Heck, even the first tier is a task to be proud of).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...