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Esorath

Nightmare feedback and next steps

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@Sombrero quote:


@jokke1989dk quote:

Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

The current 1-5 legendary drops per incusions run needs to be more like 1 legendary drop after every 30+ endgame incursion run.

A full legendary set is something only a player with hundreds of hours of gameplay should have, while mythical should be achievable to gear up in at a rewarding pace when you first reach nightmare.

Green and blues is what you should be geared up in first, and if you're lucky you might even get a mythical while leveling towards end-game.

Mythical should be the next step to gear up in fully to tackle nm3/nm4.

Legendaries should be what motivates you to play those long ass survival runs, while also be a very rare boss/chest drop.

Ofc when legendaries is this rare it can be frustrating to loot a piece with bad combination of stats.

With 10+ heroes at future endgame it's likely you will find some use for it though, but it would be a good idea to make a reroll consumable,  that ofc should also be a rare drop, plus maybe a reward from monthly .


We are not playing the same game.

Since last patch (and despite the event legendary drop weekend!!!) legendaries are way too scarce. I have maximum 2 myythical per map on a 9 wave insane map. It's just ridiculous considering that not even 10% of loots may have the stats you are looking for.

I haven't played any endgame content since last patch, have only been leveling characters. Have ignored loot, refuse to play vacuum simulator :P

Not going to farm for loot/gold untill we get tib back or another decent alternative.

But i've seen PLENTY of legendaries drop though.

But ofc to implement what I suggested before the tiers should be scaled to fit that balance.

This isn't d3 with seasons,  the spam of legendaries makes sense with that games design, but even there you have a legendary+ tier. 

With the current legendary droprates in dd2, I think that future endgame will get boring fast.

It's very possible Trendy already have something planned though,  it's early access afterall.

But the game need more rare loot to hunt.

You think it's ridiculous now that only 10% of mythicals you get is an upgrade, but that is actually not that long with the pace of mythical that drops. 

And like I said before, a reroll consumable would be perfect ( as long as they are rare ofc, so only worth to use on legendary)


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@Esorath quote:

So, as one of the guys working on Nightmare balance, I would just like to thank everyone for their feedback so far on Nightmare balance. I am personally reading every single  thread and making copious notes about potential changes we can make to Nightmare to make it more fun and more rewarding.


Here’s some of the feedback I’ve gathered so far:

  1. It’s not fun.
  2. It’s too hard.
  3. Insane is easy but NM1 is too hard.
  4. It’s not rewarding when you do complete waves.
  5. It takes too long to do Nightmare runs (also hearing this about other playlists).

Here are a few things I’d like to potentially do for Nightmare next:

  1. Make the difficulty ramp from Insane into NM1 a bit more smooth. Right now the wall is a bit of a hurdle and we'd like to make that better.
  2. Adjust the waves and shrink the “time to complete” down. This could be in shorter waves or in less number of waves.
  3. Make sure the recommended Ipwr is what you need to beat the content with. Right now it appears that you need above recommended Ipwr in Nightmare to stand a fighting chance. If you have above recommended Ipwr, it should make it a bit easier.
  4. Some other minor updates to make solo and 4 player both just as viable options.

How do you feel about these changes? What else would you like to see?
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I'm just going to ramble on a bit about things that would make nightmare less of a headache.

Hero DPS needs to be viable, and interesting. All heroes get destroyed if they want to go pick up ability mana and there's any creeps nearby. (Whoever thought it was a good idea to remove dropping mana between rounds... I have some harsh words for them because once you're dry on ability mana, if you aren't using a mana regen pet, good luck with the stupid amounts of HP things have.) I could go on and on about heroes but yeah.

Green mana is way too scarce across all levels. If you want things to be hard, we need to be able to upgrade and repair. Seriously what's the point in having the ability to star anything, if you can't have things starred before the last round ends? DD1 had this perfect, I was able to do a lot of upgrading even in early game. Not waiting for the silly chests between rounds. You want things to have more HP and scale super high? Give us the mana to deal with it.

Defenses need to be buffed if you intend on keeping mob HP where it is. Health sponges are not fun gameplay mechanics if you can't chew through the health fairly quickly

To be honest, if you kept mob HP and damage where it's at now, but we had the defenses from BEFORE this patch, it'd feel mostly balanced then. It's seriously sad when people are looking for ways to exploit mobs due to the current state of things.

This isn't directly tied to nightmare, but loot in general is just boring, and bland. It'd be more interesting if things were not as weird looking. "Increase crit chance by 124.56" is just weird as hell. Make stats a little less confusing. What's wrong with "Increase crit chance by 12%" or something?  Life on hit is useless, it should heal more. Stop nerfing things into oblivion. Find a good middle ground. Things should feel fun. Not mind numbingly boring.

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Once again more great ideas and updates we can make to nightmare. Just wanted to post again that I'm still looking through these threads and getting all the feedback I can.  It's great to hear concerns as well as what you guys would like to see!

Keep at it and I'll keep reading and taking notes. 

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Loot

Just one suggestion I can think of, and it might not be the best, but hey it's something.

Make all loot useful in one way or another. Either implement a way to re-roll stats on gear for horizontal progression, or change the way that loot works.

Make loot that drops, part of one of a pre-determined set of gear/build.  I'm going to give examples, but don't hound me if the stat weights are min/max (JEEZ ELAN THIS STAT WOULD BE WAY BETTER FOR THIS CLASS UR THE WURST), just trying to show examples.

For example: Tons of random loot drops in a level, but each piece is itemized to have stats that are part of a predetermined USEFUL set.  You go and look at one item, and it has Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, and randomized squire passives and/or crit.  You think "nice, a piece of cannon gear!"  OR a piece drops with Defense Power, Defense Health, and some aura range bonuses and you're like "ooo, monk builder."...  Maybe the gear isn't the best ROLL of the stats or passives, so you have to search for better, but at least it's useful!

AND, depending on the rarity of item, you can add/take away passives.  So green items of these sets will only have 1 lame passive, Legendaries have three, etc.  But again, the stats are still useful.

Some set ideas (DP = Defense Power, DCD = Defense Crit Damage, DH = Defense Health, HD = Hero Damage, AP = Ability Power, HH= Hero Health, etc.)

Builds:

Builders:

Cannon Squire: DP/DCD - Projectile tower range on helm, crit on some pieces, etc.
Barricade Squire: DH/HH - Chance on hit to repair barricade health, healthy blockade, etc.
Harpoon Squire: DP/DH - Splody weapon, ballista speed, crit, etc.
Traptress: DP/DCD/DH? - Increased trap size, crit, tripwire bows, etc.
Blaze Balloon Traptress - DP/DCD Trap size, Blaze passives, 

Heroes:

BoomNade Huntress: HD, AP - Meant for stickynade uber, hero crit, piercing shot damage increase passive, etc
Angry-barian Squire: HH, HD - hero damage squire bonuses, hero crit, etc
Seren-e-monk: HD, HH, DP - Serenity aura passives, hero crit, tanky monk style

These are just some examples... I'm sure people could come up with a bunch of "builds" for each class that's currently in the game that they feel would be useful.

Maybe it makes loot too boring to use this system, but maybe it's something to just brainstorm off of to improve the loot system in some way.  It would still depend on RNG to get the better ilvl/rarity rolls on gear, but at least the gear that would drop would be useful to someone's build.  

Another way to combat the feeling of not progressing would be to implement trading, even if it just starts out similar to WoW and Diablo 3 where you can trade loot that you just looted with people that are in your game for 4 hours or whatever, it would at least allow people to have some other way to get upgrades and promotes being social within the game.  More people = bigger chance of getting something you need.


These might not be the BEST ideas, but I was just looking for ways to keep players feeling like they're advancing their character in some way, all the time.

(shameless plug, let's talk about end-game and improving it on my stream tonight at 8 pm EST twitch.tv/elandrian)

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I was finally able to walk away from trying to climb into NM2 and go buy another game instead when I had the following thought process (in the shower, where all great thinking happens):

This patch wasn't so much a step backwards as it was a step towards nowhere.  Even if the balance of nightmare had been perfect, it would still be a mediocre experience.  The hero deck, the design of the items, the useless heroes, the boring stats, the escalation of difficulty being just a matter of +hp/damage... I don't always agree with his desired solutions, but this is pretty much the stuff [[31834,users]] has been talking about for a long time. 

My biggest worry is that you've reached the point of no return with respect to your vision for the game.  Maybe you would be better off if people weren't coming at this game having played DD1, but they are, and you can't escape that.  I wonder if most of the community wouldn't be happier with a reset DD1 than with a balanced DD2.

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@Sombrero quote:


@jokke1989dk quote:

Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

We are not playing the same game.

Since last patch (and despite the event legendary drop weekend!!!) legendaries are way too scarce. I have maximum 2 myythical per map on a 9 wave insane map. It's just ridiculous considering that not even 10% of loots may have the stats you are looking for.


@jokke1989dk quote:

I haven't played any endgame content since last patch, have only been leveling characters. Have ignored loot, refuse to play vacuum simulator :P

There's a weekend event going on where Legendary items are dropping at twice the normal rate in Free Play but not End Game, which is why you're seeing that, [[61968,users]].

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@iamisom quote:

There's a weekend event going on where Legendary items are dropping at twice the normal rate in Free Play but not End Game, which is why you're seeing that,

when we can wait for the next fix? Serenity aura does not slow down. how we can play without it...

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I like the difficulty of insane > nm1 > nm2 in general. Nm1 is twice as hard as insane, and nm2 is twice as hard as nm1. What I don't like is the difficulty vs reward. 

The loot is just way too weak in relation to the time and effort spent. I can easily clear 2-3 maps or 4-5 rounds of onslaught and not get a single useable item. Broadly speaking, I am only looking for two types of items. Either a hero item (ability/herodps/(herohealth) or a builder item (defense power/defense health/(defense crit damage). Anything other than this is immediately discarded. The item has extra resist? Useless. It has hero crit? Useless. It has ANY other combination than those? USELESS. 

To add to this, I am increasingly annoyed that I can't gear up any other character than the one I'm currently playing in terms of weapons and passives. It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to bring a hero dps character to nm2. At the same time, if I play an apprentice as magic dps, I will not be getting the crucial upgrades for my squire blockade builder or the huntress trap builder. 

Making things even worse is that you are now telling me that I am in fact required to find "trifecta" items with great stats and great passives in order to conceivably progress into nm3/nm4. Having played maybe 20 hours since the patch, I have not yet found a single item that I would consider great.


To summarize, the way you handle loot:

1) Items with a useable combination of stats are rare

2) Items mostly drop for the character I'm playing, which makes gearing up secondary characters difficult when DPS heroes are needed.

3) In order to progress into nm3/nm4 I feel that items need great stats and great passives. These are practically unheard of in the new patch.


These three steps make looking at loot feel extremely non-rewarding.


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@iamisom quote:



There's a weekend event going on where Legendary items are dropping at twice the normal rate in Free Play but not End Game, which is why you're seeing that, jokke1989dk.

So you are dropping legendaries for folks who are leveling, but those who are working hard to get into or through NM modes get no benefit?



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Being able to adequately gear up numerous heroes in a reasonable amount of time would definitely improve the situation and "possibly" make nerfing the NM difficulties unnecessary. Gearing up heroes is called progression. Not being able to gear up heroes to take on the next level of difficulty prior to rage quitting is called zero progression.

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@iamisom quote:


@Sombrero quote:


@jokke1989dk quote:

Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

We are not playing the same game.

Since last patch (and despite the event legendary drop weekend!!!) legendaries are way too scarce. I have maximum 2 myythical per map on a 9 wave insane map. It's just ridiculous considering that not even 10% of loots may have the stats you are looking for.


@jokke1989dk quote:

I haven't played any endgame content since last patch, have only been leveling characters. Have ignored loot, refuse to play vacuum simulator :P

There's a weekend event going on where Legendary items are dropping at twice the normal rate in Free Play but not End Game, which is why you're seeing that, jokke1989dk.

I realize that

I'm curious,  how are you planning to handle the endgame? 

Are you just going to go with a gear treadmill and increase ipwr with a new map from time to time?

How are you going to keep people playing?

Because with the current legendary droprates, when game is released, it won't take that long for people to reach max gear, combined with very little motivation to max out more than 4 heroes with the limited hero deck.

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@jokke1989dk quote:

Because with the current legendary droprates, when game is released, it won't take that long for people to reach max gear, combined with very little motivation to max out more than 4 heroes with the limited hero deck.

Gotta realize that we currently have only one campaign boss. I expect AT LEAST 2 more bosses at the start of release and some more being added afterwards. That would mean approximately two more continents to explore.

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How about some loot?  That would be nice.

I have 4 Tower builders, and 4 DPS classes.  All sitting at or around 240. 

I spent 6 hours today in NM1.  I was playing well above my IPwr range so every piece that dropped should be technically an upgrade (obviously I need the correct stats on the gear).

The challenge was sufficient for me, certain times it was hectic, other times I almost lost a lane or two.   It's nightmare... I can handle that.

The Loot was insulting.  It took 6 hours to fill all my bags with 250-290 gear.  My total take for the 6 hours spent.  I gained around 10 DP on 2 builders, 2k health on my barricades, and 2% Serenity slow.   It is pretty much not worth playing at all at this point.

Can we drop loot from normal mobs again?  Please?  This is horrible.  One of the awesome things about DD has always been the gear explosions all over the place.   Now we get next to no gear for so much effort put in.   

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Been farming NM1 just like you, with ipwr 260-280 (varied by hero) builders. Spent around the same amount of time, i was content. Found a number of upgrades to my current gear as well as farmed gold, leveled up my pet. 
Most importantly, i had fun. I was not bored, unlike in the pre-patch Liferoot NM4 Incursion.

In my honest opinion, the difficulty is good. Just on the spot. The problem is, loot dropped from NM1 could be all the way up to 340-ish ipwr (something along those numbers - a one tier higher than we have now). The same with NM 2 and 3 and 4 being left as it is or a little beefed accordingly due to NM1-3 slight ipwr boost. 

8/10. Will probably do it again. 


Edit: I didn't even farm pre-patch for items in advance to have a head start.. Like, spent something around 5 hours in total during the loot weekend before Alpha. I had to farm my items at Insane in Alpha. Gearing up for Nightmare 1 was fairly easy, i had around 4 items in total scattered throughout all heroes with useful builder passives. 

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I agree with this.  I like the idea of have the ability to re roll your gear similar to the pet re roll function.   Use the enchantress.  Add another window for reforging.  Put in the item you want reforged.  Add the gear that has the passive on it you want.  Select the passive to be replaced if needed. Then using gold, reagents or??? reforge the item with that passive.  Depending on the cost (how much you put into it, up to a point.  Put a cap on the cost.) the passive will transfer over but might have higher or lower percentages.

 

@Elandrian quote:

Loot

Just one suggestion I can think of, and it might not be the best, but hey it's something.

Make all loot useful in one way or another. Either implement a way to re-roll stats on gear for horizontal progression, or change the way that loot works.



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I solo Nightmare 1 using the same defense setup prior to the patch and with little hero interaction.

I could not at first, though, as all of the gear I had farmed from Nightmare 3 was reduced to 240 item power  and it was far worse than the gear I had fortunately saved from my Hard mode Free Play games while leveling before the patch. Hearty Blockade and Frosty Power reductions, or their removal from gear,  were the main issues.

Currently, Nightmare 2 for me is impossible with the gear that I have and with the gear that I have been getting from Nightmare 1. This will be the next issue as soon as players leave Hard/Insane mode and start to comfortably complete Nightmare 1. They will try to do Nightmare 2, but the gap between the two feels really steep at the moment.

I do like the new Monk weapon though!

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@Schiwing quote:

Currently, Nightmare 2 for me is impossible with the gear that I have and with the gear that I have been getting from Nightmare 1. This will be the next issue as soon as players leave Hard/Insane mode and start to comfortably complete Nightmare 1. They will try to do Nightmare 2, but the gap between the two feels really steep at the moment.

Exactly what i am experiencing! Imo, NM1 is balanced just right and Insane -> NM1 is at the right spot. However, moving beyond that is somewhat broken and too steep. 

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Decent drops

Increase likelihood of passives rolling with the correct primary stat. So you don't get hearty blockade with hero damage you DO get it more likely with defence health. Please cut down on trash loot in NM. 

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I've run into the issue that I flat out cannot get defense power to drop.  Maybe RNG just hates me, but NM1, three bags full of loot across two and a fraction maps (I 'm grudgingly vacuum cleaning) and the ONLY occurrences of defense power are on relics, where they are required.  It seems like EVERYTHING is AP, which Isn't what I need to progress.

Its not just that the values of DP are bad, its that nothing outside of relics is dropping with it at all.  Defense health is also exceedingly rare.  I have several bags full of shiny new DPS hero loot, and nothing at all for my builders. 

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Reduce the quantity or at least the HP (by a ton) of the following enemies:

  • Javelin Throwers ('ve seem 20+ on a wave, destroying entire lanes)
  • Dark Mages (6+ on a wave, then summoning skels behind walls everywhere?)
  • Witherbeasts (just one on a wave is hard enough to get rid of... 've seem 5+)
  • Drakins (10+ per wave? they have crazy HP and spit from the mid of a lane to the crystal!)
  • Warboars (15+ on a wave?? They push each other over walls, have crazy HP...)

Currently, comparing with the original Dungeon Defenders, it is like each and every wave (including Wave 1) is spawning 30+ Dark Elf Warriors, 30+ Dark Elf Archers, 20+ Dark Elf Mages and 15+ Djinns, all of 'em on steroids.

... and the Kobold damage. PLEASE nerf it. They 1Hit-K.O. heroes with 7K HP that aren't even hit directly by the explosion - just caught in the blast radius. You can throw 200+ goblins and bomb goblins on us per wave, okay, but throwing pretty much ALL of the above on us, each wave, on crazy quantities, with x10 HP and crazy damage when our defenses got nerfed to the ground (walls with 100K+ HP now have what, 30K?) is... unbalanced, to put it politely.

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im not a dev or anthing but y dont u just make more passive gear or more ubers then work on balances then game content or other way around or atleast tell us more of what u working on so we can see ur ponit of view

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My friend and I did the toughest end game Insane and got mobs that were around level 50.. End Game NM1 on the easiest map and they were level 88 mobs.. Scaling at it's finest.

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Seems like Rampats wasn't tested.
It still have ogre on 1st wave.People farm first boss for gear...."meh".
Also Rampats inc still have bugged Malthus. (insane have 130k hp - seems like ok with 350k ogres,nm1 have 90k hp with 1mil hp ogres - seems like not ok.)

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Mostly a reiteration of what many have said already.

  • It would make sense for gear iPwr to increase as you progression though each wave. This way it would encourage people to complete a map and if they want to farm the first wave, that's in the right direction to progress to the next waves.
  • final chest reward should be dropping highest max iPwr for that map, if not higher than that map
  • definitely need more "usable" stat combination quality loot to drop
  • remove all the rubbish items that don't make sense
  • RNG should be set on value ranges (perhaps for passives/main stats) rather than perfect combinations of stats

Cheers!

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I fell in love for DD1 because of Replay ability (1700+ hrs of game play and counting). Being able to get familiar with a certain map and play the same map 100 times, always creating new builds, silly builds, different towers and heroes builds... Amazing! For me it was always about specializing a hero for something, having 2, 3, 4 of the same class hero, each one for a specific task. Gear up so many heroes is not an easy task, takes time and lots of gear to sort, but the result is very rewarding.

Atm I have 6 lv 50 and upping a 7th hero on DD2. But I'm having such a hard time not being able to bring all 7 to the battlefield.

Example: Squire blockade, App freeze, Monk crowd control Tower damage, Huntress Hero DPS. That's it. Locked, no 5th hero can be picked :*(

What about my Huntress Tower Damage, my Monk Uber Sphere Tower Damage and my 7th hero that will be a Harpoon Specialist?

It's also weird that I'm paying for the extra 7th hero slot that I can't even use at the current version of the game. Call me idiot and all I can say is: I have faith in the future to be able to use all my heroes building a map, not only 4.

I heard more than once Devs saying "We support build variety..."

Well, atm I can't use all the build potential variety bringing a limited number of heroes to the map I want to play.

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