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Esorath

Nightmare feedback and next steps

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So, as one of the guys working on Nightmare balance, I would just like to thank everyone for their feedback so far on Nightmare balance. I am personally reading every single  thread and making copious notes about potential changes we can make to Nightmare to make it more fun and more rewarding.


Here’s some of the feedback I’ve gathered so far:

  1. It’s not fun.
  2. It’s too hard.
  3. Insane is easy but NM1 is too hard.
  4. It’s not rewarding when you do complete waves.
  5. It takes too long to do Nightmare runs (also hearing this about other playlists).

Here are a few things I’d like to potentially do for Nightmare next:

  1. Make the difficulty ramp from Insane into NM1 a bit more smooth. Right now the wall is a bit of a hurdle and we'd like to make that better.
  2. Adjust the waves and shrink the “time to complete” down. This could be in shorter waves or in less number of waves.
  3. Make sure the recommended Ipwr is what you need to beat the content with. Right now it appears that you need above recommended Ipwr in Nightmare to stand a fighting chance. If you have above recommended Ipwr, it should make it a bit easier.
  4. Some other minor updates to make solo and 4 player both just as viable options.

How do you feel about these changes? What else would you like to see?
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first of all, thank you. it is a good reminder that you read our feedback. second, i'm happy with approach you are taking. so far this changes look good on paper. great work. also i have a suggestion about game progression, but idea is kinda big and i think i will be opening thread about it tomorrow. 

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I agree with all of the changes listed.  Currently I can't even attempt to solo Nightmare, so I've been joining various groups with each failing.  The furthest any have progressed is partway into wave 2.  There is little possible way to progress at the current rate.  I don't think it should be entirely easy, but I do think it should be doable with gear from insane, and currently it isn't even doable with re-rolled gear from nightmare.

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A serious look into drops would be nice too. The real issue isn't really the difficulty shift between insane and nightmare (at least in my opinion) but rather the extreme difficulty to complete a decent stuff from insane to go into nightmare. This is partially caused by bugs (some bosses don't drop items for example).

And I think overall waves in nightmare 1 tends to be too ... hectic I'd say. The burst of monsters is a bit too extreme, specially those extremly op digging monsters that tears barricades apart. (and they have waaaay too much hp)

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The problem is the reward side.  It's definitely very challenging now, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.  The trouble is that when you finally grind out a bit of success you realize that with what you got out of it you are going to have to keep grinding for a very long time before things get any easier. 

1) Do the things you said you where going to do.  Remove the bosses from wave 1.  Let all mobs drop loot on waves 2+.

2) Increase starting mana, or mana in general.  It would be nice to have enough mana on all maps to completely finish building before wave 1.  It would be nicer to have a little bit of mana left over and decide whether to burn it in advance with upgrades or hang on to it for repairs.

3) Builds made gear progression far far worse.  See: https://www.dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/124435/passives-as-items-to-be-inserted-in-gear-sockets

4) Clarify in your own minds whether you think builds should be required to enter NM1.  We where told repeatedly that the gear reroll wasn't a big deal because we would replace that gear in the first hour of playing.  Do you think people should need a full set of hearty blockade gear to enter NM1?  If no, have you tried NM1 without any? 

5) Mend bridges.  Have an honest conversation with the community about how this happened.  Most people, myself included, can't square this patch with the notion that you have a large QA team and presumable some subset of developers who actually play it.

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@Esorath quote:

So, as one of the guys working on Nightmare balance, I would just like to thank everyone for their feedback so far on Nightmare balance. I am personally reading every single  thread and making copious notes about potential changes we can make to Nightmare to make it more fun and more rewarding.


Here’s some of the feedback I’ve gathered so far:

  1. It’s not fun.
  2. It’s too hard.
  3. Insane is easy but NM1 is too hard.
  4. It’s not rewarding when you do complete waves.
  5. It takes too long to do Nightmare runs (also hearing this about other playlists).

Here are a few things I’d like to potentially do for Nightmare next:

  1. Make the difficulty ramp from Insane into NM1 a bit more smooth. Right now the wall is a bit of a hurdle and we'd like to make that better.
  2. Adjust the waves and shrink the “time to complete” down. This could be in shorter waves or in less number of waves.
  3. Make sure the recommended Ipwr is what you need to beat the content with. Right now it appears that you need above recommended Ipwr in Nightmare to stand a fighting chance. If you have above recommended Ipwr, it should make it a bit easier.
  4. Some other minor updates to make solo and 4 player both just as viable options.

How do you feel about these changes? What else would you like to see?
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[quote]Make the difficulty ramp from Insane into NM1 a bit more smooth. Right now the wall is a bit of a hurdle and we'd like to make that better.[/quote]


Yeah, a BIT OF A HURDLE, and the Grand Canyon is a little erosion area.



Try playing the progression as it currently is laid out.

Use only gear that drops in the normal games pre Nightmare.

Then go to NM1 and see just how badly you are geared and how difficult the game actually is.



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And the special drops for this weekend are essentially off limits due to the difficulty levels set by the hotfix.


I've played over 5 hours today and have not seen any loot worth picking up except for its cash value.

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What i'd add to this:

  • Less rerolls, u'd better make enemies a bit stronger/weaker, Not players.
  • Revive Squire as Tank on Nightmare. Seems gear resists were nerfed. Squire cant tank enemies, when oneshoted from anything. + SA heal was nerfed...
  • Give us a chance to play not as DPS char. Cause there's no way to build and farm some specific gear in solo mode.
  • Make a topic with current special weapons (like onslaught rewards  or betsy, malthicus etc) droplist and theirs desription. Many of players dont even dont know about them.
  • Strange when usual maps and Incursions have almost same about bosses per run, But Incursions x2 less waves.
  • Imo avg run should be ~20 mins (like 10 with OP gear from higher difficulties, 15 with required, and 20-30 with lower than required)
  • Would be Awesome to see on each node (mission) how many players there now. Such systems we can see in other games. And it's usefull, when game havent enough players to fill all nodes.

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I'm not a regular poster or anything but this thread got me itching.

This is mostly regarding solo play. 

I think, asides from the step from insane to nightmare the balance between NM 1-4 is simply not there. I've been tweaking my builds and I can literally afk on NM1, yet I do not even stand a remote chance of beating NM2, the gaps are just enormous. This is not a good progress curve in my opinion, this is simply beyond hard or challenging content (that's what nightmare 1). The problem is there is no way to progress on gear, the gear that drops op NM1 simply isn't beating NM2 (I haven't tried multiplayer yet, I normally like the added challenge of solo play).  Overall I think the monster HP in nightmare is just way and way to high, 200k hp on wave 1 in NM2? Good luck beating that with i285!

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Firstly Thank You for tending to our broken hearts and needs <3


Secondly, I feel that an accurate opinion without Trendy's Philosophy on where they would like to see the game in the short term and long term makes commenting extremely difficult. ie.


the People, "Game is too hard" *smash head on keyboard then into wall*

Trendy, "This was our design :)"

the People, "..." *Kappa Kappa*

Trendy, "OK! We've made content easier" *FLEX*

the People, "YAY!"  -- time goes by --

the People, "Now the game is boring because we cleared it too fast"

Trendy, "..."

the People, "..."


Obviously everyone wants a balanced middle ground and I personally have a lot of ideas but without Trendy's Philosophy on where they want this game to be, it's extremely difficult to comment.


Cheers!

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Thanks everyone who commented so quickly!

A few quick notes about a few of the responses so far:

" I don't think it should be entirely easy, but I do think it should be doable with gear from insane, and currently it isn't even doable with re-rolled gear from nightmare." - [[42561,users]]
Agreed, we want you to progress normally into Nightmare 1. You should feel a bit of kick walking into nightmare for the first time (or first few times) but once you get the hang of it, Nightmare should just be the next challenge you are facing. Not a wall you run into a billion times.

"Increase starting mana, or mana in general. It would be nice to have enough mana on all maps to completely finish building before wave 1. It would be nicer to have a little bit of mana left over and decide whether to burn it in advance with upgrades or hang on to it for repairs." -[[38837,users]]

This is def. a good idea. Giving a bit more options to build with and start a better defense is def. something we can look into. 

"Imo avg run should be ~20 mins (like 10 with OP gear from higher difficulties, 15 with required, and 20-30 with lower than required)" -[[87747,users]]

I think this is on the right track. Probably wanna aim around that time for sure. Nightmare is a bit of slug fest at the moment and making it more reasonable time to complete is on the table. 

And a few mentioned making sure loot that drops gives that "AWWW YEA GOT SOME NIGHTMARE LOOT YO!" feelin'. 

Again, thanks for all the feedback. Keep it coming guys!

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Here you go. An entire post dedicated to everything I can possibly conceive about what's wrong with nightmare (and difficulty in general), and how you can solve it.

Also, the thread on hero combat is another one I'd highly recommend taking into consideration as well.

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As of the moment how this works. You can abuse this. I feel that either this should be changed, as of now the NM3 and NM4 modes even the lower ones can be abused due to this. If you start a wave as a solo player there is only one threat lane. The more players the more threat lanes. you can physically block the lane with walls at the gates and kill the ogre on the first wave. The Ogres need taken off the first wave and put onto the 2nd wave for all maps and modes. This is extremely ab-usable. Test it for yourself. Also once you start the wave with one player you can invite friends into the game without the difficulty going up, but once that wave is over. It scales to 4 player difficulty.

Nightmare Balance

  • Added a specific difficulty rating for two players. Nightmare now has difficulty ratings for 1, 2 and 3-4 player buckets.

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The spearmen can destroy walls too fast, their damage is way out of proportion with everything else. Dragonkin have too much hp to damage ratio.

Solo play is easier but hero DPS doesn't work very well as lane resists hampers hero dps and when playing solo you only have one hero to dps. Hero dps should not be resisted. In co-op also It's not fun at all to be hero restricted to a certain lane, boring. Hero damage in general needs to be increased.

When doing 4 player co-op the game adds many harder creeps

Example solo has 4 lanes of goblins and one lane of goblins and dragons and another of goblins and healers. It's pretty easy.

4 player has 2 lanes of goblins, one lane of 9 different creeps another lane of 7 different creeps etc The patch notes said it was only suppose to increase their levels, but instead adds many harder creeps, it's better to solo or duo, but 4 players is a waste.

BTW, you took away farming ogres but now what people do is beat wave one and then do the ogre farm on wave 2. What you did it just made it more tedious. 

The biggest complaint i hear is the randomness of lanes. One time you get ogre with goblins and the next time it's ogre with spearmen, healer, dragonkin and goblins. It's better to just do onslaught as theirs less randomness and more mana to rebuild the entire defense each round.


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one thing that could help nightmare is some more du like 200 would do wonders it feels like there is not enough du, some more mana and boom  I also noticed that a few times I failed it was because there where 4 crystal dogs healing every thing plus troll blood. I'm a solo player. thanks for this thread made fell like we were being heard.:) orc hp was also a problem 195k  an orc it seemed by the time I got one or two down there were 3 more right on the walls.


to the OP great ideas I like all of them.

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Wow, look how well this "NM mega-thread" is going :D 

We need more "mega-threads", then the devs would see what they need to prioritze and see it presented in an organized manner.

That being said, all those things you have addressed already are exactly what NM needs, especially the NM1 jump from Insane.


EDIT: grammar

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[[48993,users]] Thanks for the feedback thread. As you can see everyone loves directly talking with you guys.

I think you are on the right track with these changes especially with the wall of entry into NM1. After the reroll I can stomp Insane easily but I get squished in NM. Just absolutely destroyed. Perhaps my build isn't perfect but it's not that bad either considering I could do NM 1 pre patch. 

Also I can only +100 to what everyone else has said in this thread instead of repeating it :)

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@drag7399 quote:

Orc hp was also a problem 195k  an orc it seemed by the time I got one or two down there were 3 more right on the walls.

This.

Orcs ... and lanes of 30 warboars just destroyed my 65k walls in like 30 seconds. Also, any lane with witherbeasts was just impossible ... turns trying to defend a lane with a pointed stick into trying to defend it with a toothpick. Ideal solve for witherbeasts (at least in part) would be to have hero health such that they could stand in a mob of creeps for more than 5 secs before biting the dust ... and also having enough damage output to actually kill some of said creeps. DD1 felt glorious in this regard. DD2 feels like sending a toddler into the middle of a pack of velociraptors. Maybe leave hero health and damage as is for all difficulties prior to NM ... then for all content NM1 and beyond, buff both by x2, x3, x4 ... not sure?

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@mokn quote:

BTW, you took away farming ogres but now what people do is beat wave one and then do the ogre farm on wave 2. What you did it just made it more tedious. 

Exactly! I like the idea of "breaking" into nightmare. I don't want to be able to do all of nightmare with insane gear. I don't mind getting steam rolled IF I get some loot that will help me do better next time. Loot should drop wave one. That loot helps you beat wave one and so on. You just have to control the quality of loot that drops so farming it is only good for a bit before you need to move on to get better loot. 

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Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

The current 1-5 legendary drops per incusions run needs to be more like 1 legendary drop after every 30+ endgame incursion run.

A full legendary set is something only a player with hundreds of hours of gameplay should have, while mythical should be achievable to gear up in at a rewarding pace when you first reach nightmare.

Green and blues is what you should be geared up in first, and if you're lucky you might even get a mythical while leveling towards end-game.

Mythical should be the next step to gear up in fully to tackle nm3/nm4.

Legendaries should be what motivates you to play those long ass survival runs, while also be a very rare boss/chest drop.

Ofc when legendaries is this rare it can be frustrating to loot a piece with bad combination of stats.

With 10+ heroes at future endgame it's likely you will find some use for it though, but it would be a good idea to make a reroll consumable,  that ofc should also be a rare drop, plus maybe a reward from monthly .


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Heroes are in a TERRIBLE state at the moment in regards to mobs in general. Even my squire gets his ass handed to him on a silver platter, whereas before he would take a beating (not ***ting you, we had guys using their squires at like level 40 in NM4 because they were tanky enough to handle it at times.)

Now? Well good luck with your hero to do any semblance of damage to the extreme health pools nightmare has. It's like slapping a brick wall with a wet paper towel. 



@jokke1989dk quote:

Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

The current 1-5 legendary drops per incusions run needs to be more like 1 legendary drop after every 30+ endgame incursion run.

A full legendary set is something only a player with hundreds of hours of gameplay should have, while mythical should be achievable to gear up in at a rewarding pace when you first reach nightmare.

Green and blues is what you should be geared up in first, and if you're lucky you might even get a mythical while leveling towards end-game.

Mythical should be the next step to gear up in fully to tackle nm3/nm4.

Legendaries should be what motivates you to play those long ass survival runs, while also be a very rare boss/chest drop.

Ofc when legendaries is this rare it can be frustrating to loot a piece with bad combination of stats.

With 10+ heroes at future endgame it's likely you will find some use for it though, but it would be a good idea to make a reroll consumable,  that ofc should also be a rare drop, plus maybe a reward from monthly .


1 legendary per 30+ incursions? Are you absolutely MAD? That's the worst thing you could even suggest.

If they changed legendaries to be that rare, they had better be damned near perfect. And we know that's not going to happen. 

I for one disagree with anything in this post, so damned much. This isn't an MMO, this is a tower defense/rpg and loot is an important aspect of it. You play to feel powerful and overcome things. If legendaries dropped once in 30 runs in diablo 3, you think people would play that like they do? Hell no. Nor would they here.


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@jokke1989dk quote:

Current loot drops is what makes the game boring quick right now imo.

Legendaries drops like it was dirt. What makes you pump countless of hours  into RPG's is usually that rare tier of loot. Legendaries needs to feel ... Legendary ..

The current 1-5 legendary drops per incusions run needs to be more like 1 legendary drop after every 30+ endgame incursion run.

A full legendary set is something only a player with hundreds of hours of gameplay should have, while mythical should be achievable to gear up in at a rewarding pace when you first reach nightmare.

Green and blues is what you should be geared up in first, and if you're lucky you might even get a mythical while leveling towards end-game.

Mythical should be the next step to gear up in fully to tackle nm3/nm4.

Legendaries should be what motivates you to play those long ass survival runs, while also be a very rare boss/chest drop.

Ofc when legendaries is this rare it can be frustrating to loot a piece with bad combination of stats.

With 10+ heroes at future endgame it's likely you will find some use for it though, but it would be a good idea to make a reroll consumable,  that ofc should also be a rare drop, plus maybe a reward from monthly .


We are not playing the same game.

Since last patch (and despite the event legendary drop weekend!!!) legendaries are way too scarce. I have maximum 2 myythical per map on a 9 wave insane map. It's just ridiculous considering that not even 10% of loots may have the stats you are looking for.

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