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ngoctienvt

The Scavenger

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@Dreizehn quote:

Maybe I'm a bit slow here but I still did not understand the Scavenger's purpose.

Can anybody please tell me what I am missing?

I have been playing some maps and did not pick up any loot. After the map, back in tavern, I have interacted with the Scavenger and all he has is an empty inventory.


From what I have heard the Scavenger is purposed to collect the stuff instead of the TIb, isn't he? So if he was working correctly I would have to claim all the stuff and sell it manually. ...just the kind of action we actually wanted to prevent. Is this the case or am I missing something?

The purpose of why the scavenger was implemented has not been told to us yet. The closest information we have to that is from iamisom earlier in this thread:

Over the past few months of development, we noticed the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways. We observed that this was causing frustration and confusion for players, especially new players. We also assumed these uses were hiding underlying issues with the inventory management system that were not exposed because the TIB was being used to accommodate for them.

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I do prefer the TIB over the scavenger just due to convenience but if the devs insist on keeping the scavenger for whatever reason they may have then I have a couple ease of life suggestions.

  • Let pet food stack already! It would help tremendously for inventory management.
  • Some form of wave clean up where all items on the floor get delt with each wave & disappear. Multiple ways to do this, one would be have the scavenger pick everything up. (This would deal with items that fall out of reach but where the scavenger currently doesn't pickup)
  • Have a option to sell scavengers inventory. Drag dropping all the stuff he picked up into my inventory then selling it is inconvenient.
  • Ability to cycle through drops on the ground, so if there is 2 overlapping items I can simply press a key to change which one I'm interacting with.
  • Ability to quick drag from scavengers inventory to mine, perhaps shift left click a item then it quick drags to my inventory.

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The scavenger is completely worthless, he does nothing useful. I was not a fan of the TIB, but this is way worse.

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Would be nice to have a way to sell on-field items during battle with "V" or something as an easy way of clearing them so you can actually view stats on the more interesting items.  In Onslaught there are sometimes dozens of items in one spot, most of which are too underpowered to be of interest, but they block me from viewing the better ones.

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Still no TIB come back patch? wat? i want all the drugs that you are having. so i can destroy them so you can realise what *** this "scavenger patch" is

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@iamisom quote:

Thanks everyone for all your feedback on The Scavenger!

...

Remove this old [insert bad words] and then ask the community for a solution since you can't come up with one that doesn't break the whole game.

If no dev in your team saw the flaws and zero gains of the scavenger I am really scared for the future of this game.

!!!Stock up on your QA apartment!!!

It seems no one actually starts the game while developing a new patch you just hammer the code into it and then send it out.


The other option is you tried to force more bags onto us by destroying the little inventory managment we had.

I really don't know which option I would prefer.


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@iamisom quote:

Thanks everyone for all your feedback on The Scavenger!

Over the past few months of development, we noticed the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways. We observed that this was causing frustration and confusion for players, especially new players. We also assumed these uses were hiding underlying issues with the inventory management system that were not exposed because the TIB was being used to accommodate for them.

When we created The Scavenger we set out to solve the former set of issues first. Now, we’re looking to tackle many of the problems you’ve brought up since launch. The two major issues we are focused on fixing first are:

  1. Allowing players some way to designate which bags an item they pick up goes into.

  2. Allowing players some way to set an “auto pickup” bag, so they can sort loot after a match.

We are currently looking at how to solve this issue, either through the Scavenger or updates to the inventory.

I, for one, appreciate that yall listen to us promptly and work to figure out solutions. The first issue is my biggest, since I have always been an OCD SOB and need to have organization. haha. Can't wait to see what comes next!

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@iamisom quote:

Thanks everyone for all your feedback on The Scavenger!

Over the past few months of development, we noticed the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways. We observed that this was causing frustration and confusion for players, especially new players. We also assumed these uses were hiding underlying issues with the inventory management system that were not exposed because the TIB was being used to accommodate for them.

When we created The Scavenger we set out to solve the former set of issues first. Now, we’re looking to tackle many of the problems you’ve brought up since launch. The two major issues we are focused on fixing first are:

  1. Allowing players some way to designate which bags an item they pick up goes into.

  2. Allowing players some way to set an “auto pickup” bag, so they can sort loot after a match.

We are currently looking at how to solve this issue, either through the Scavenger or updates to the inventory.

Please explain how "the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways."  I'd like to know what the intended ways were for it, because what I did with it (use it to gather all loot from the ground after each game, sort, then sell), is the only way I really saw a use for it.  I'm not sure how it could be used for anything else.

That said, the Scavenger has made no sense to pretty much anyone.  I think we had an idea of his intentions, but it was a failed launch for sure, especially since he didn't really scavenge anything (unless you filled up your inventory or a piece of gear fell off the map).  Probably best to make sure that everything works correctly before releasing it to the players and removing the correctly working thing.  Also probably a good idea to explain (in game cause not everyone reads a forum or watches a Devstream) what the intended use is (you can clean up the language in the explanation prior to full launch.  

Since this is Alpha now, you should make every intention to explain the changes, in game, that you are making and what the intended use is of that change.  It may also help to have an FAQ in game (in the ESC menu) that players can read up on things (to prevent pop up bubbles and stuff like that on the UI).  Just some thoughts to consider.

Finally, could you explain the new gear progression a bit more?  I can build all the way up to Betsy Insane with pretty much no problems, but even then, I don't get gear that "upgrades" my current gear and gets me into the 230 iPWR level for NM1.  I'm not going to sacrifice my hero's stats for iPWR just to move into the next level, that's not what should be happening.  But I can't get gear to make it possible...

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@MalenkoMC quote:


@iamisom quote:

Thanks everyone for all your feedback on The Scavenger!

Over the past few months of development, we noticed the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways. We observed that this was causing frustration and confusion for players, especially new players. We also assumed these uses were hiding underlying issues with the inventory management system that were not exposed because the TIB was being used to accommodate for them.

When we created The Scavenger we set out to solve the former set of issues first. Now, we’re looking to tackle many of the problems you’ve brought up since launch. The two major issues we are focused on fixing first are:

  1. Allowing players some way to designate which bags an item they pick up goes into.

  2. Allowing players some way to set an “auto pickup” bag, so they can sort loot after a match.

We are currently looking at how to solve this issue, either through the Scavenger or updates to the inventory.

Please explain how "the TIB was being used in a lot of unintended ways."  I'd like to know what the intended ways were for it, because what I did with it (use it to gather all loot from the ground after each game, sort, then sell), is the only way I really saw a use for it.  I'm not sure how it could be used for anything else.

Their intention is that inventory management is a non-trivial part of the gameplay. Not picking up anything, and then going into the TiB and picking out the items that are interesting, while the rest of it just gets sold, is counter to their plans for how players interact with items both in the world and in their inventory. 

Not picking up items during game play is unintended. Auto-selling 99% of items without user interaction is unintended. 

I know this because these are the two things primarily changed by introducing the Scavenger. And also because they said as much on the stream. 

The intended purpose of the TiB was overflow space. You picked up too many items and had no more room. But those items could be valuable, so you don't want to auto-sell or lose them, so they go to the TiB. 

With the TiB, inventory space was effectively pointless. You just let everything go to the TiB, cherry pick the 10-15 items you wanted from the run and everything else goes to the black void. 


I don't personally believe the Scavenger was the right solution for the problem, but I can certainly see why he was introduced and what kind of behavior they are trying to drive. 

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@antiproton quote:

Their intention is that inventory management is a non-trivial part of the gameplay. Not picking up anything, and then going into the TiB and picking out the items that are interesting, while the rest of it just gets sold, is counter to their plans for how players interact with items both in the world and in their inventory. 

Not picking up items during game play is unintended. Auto-selling 99% of items without user interaction is unintended. 

I know this because these are the two things primarily changed by introducing the Scavenger. And also because they said as much on the stream. 

The intended purpose of the TiB was overflow space. You picked up too many items and had no more room. But those items could be valuable, so you don't want to auto-sell or lose them, so they go to the TiB. 

With the TiB, inventory space was effectively pointless. You just let everything go to the TiB, cherry pick the 10-15 items you wanted from the run and everything else goes to the black void. 


I don't personally believe the Scavenger was the right solution for the problem, but I can certainly see why he was introduced and what kind of behavior they are trying to drive. 

They should have at least waited to add the scavenger when they had the solutions to the problem in place, the flak they are getting over the scavenger wouldn't be anywhere near as bad if they waited until then.

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@anitproton

That makes some sense actually, but I think they went about it the wrong way.  Now, I understand that this is THEIR game and we are just playing it.  But as a player of a game like this, you tend to take a bit of ownership.  Not because it is in Alpha and you are making suggestions to make it better, but because you put time into it to make it your own.

Personally, I do not see a problem with the way the TIB was being used.  There was not a better option out there for people, so they adapted their tools to do what they wanted.  No one wants to fill their inventory with CRAP that they are going to sell anyway.  In the same sense, no one wants to be "that guy" who sorts all of his gear during build waves or even battle waves.  So we did the smart thing (that most players did), we let everything sit til the end of the round, let the TIB grab it and then sorted it in the tavern after the round was complete.

The problem with the scavenger... he didn't pick up everything that WE thought he should pick up and therefore, people lost out on selling unused items for needed Gold.  If this game moves to a pay for gold way of life, I will ask for a refund and not play anymore.  What I do with the items I am given in game should be my choice.  Whether that is how it was intended or not.  If I am more worried about gaining gold to buy items and enhance weapons, I should be able to sell everything I gather.  But having to piss off other players and make them wait on me to do it, is NOT the way to go.  Since the release of the Scavenger, I've been kicked from a game twice because everyone G'ed while I was sorting (no sound or warning that they had G'ed), so I kept going thinking others were doing it too.  This is a MAJOR pain and needs to be fixed...

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Even if they keep the part where you have to manually take the stuff from the scavenger's inventory, they should at least have him collect everything so you can sort later. As I said before, we should not be required to do inventory management during a match and making it so we either do that or lose money on all the non-upgrades is just unacceptable, especially because the prices for things have been increased again.

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@ngoctienvt quote:

The Scavenger

  • Your TIB has been replaced by a homeless man. Egads!
  • You’ll find the Scavenger in the Tavern. If you run out of inventory space, The Scavenger will hold onto anything you pick up when you have a full inventory. He'll also collect items that fall out of the world, but you'll have to make space in your Inventory to get them back!
  • Items that are not collected from the map are not sent to the Scavenger.
  • Items that expire in the Scavenger's stash are taken by him and you will never get to see them again! They are not sold.

Is it only me not understand the use of this system? It's like 10 step backwards....

Thank you, been wondering why nothing was going into his grubby coat.

I miss the TIB, didnt think i would, but I really do. 

Bad decision boys, inventory needs a massive rework but this has so many negative effects it ruined what was already pretty broken.

Sorry to be all salty, but we needz inventory fixed (beyond this as well).

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@antiproton quote:

Their intention is that inventory management is a non-trivial part of the gameplay. Not picking up anything, and then going into the TiB and picking out the items that are interesting, while the rest of it just gets sold, is counter to their plans for how players interact with items both in the world and in their inventory. 

Then they should design items to present us with non-trivial choices.  If 95% of items only require a half a second look at them to decide that they're junk, I bloody well don't want to be forced to spend any unnecessary time managing them.  With the TiB my process was approximately this:

  1. Pick up any blues and above as well as pet items.  Anything else is automatically junk.
  2. Sell everything from the TiB, since it's all junk.
  3. Go through the decent-quality items and move any with good stats into storage bags.
  4. Sell the rest from the item collection bag.

I haven't played with the scavenger yet (I'm planning to soon after writing this post), but I imagine the process will go like this:

  1. Pick up everything from the map.
  2. Curse as the heaps of junk overflow my item collection bag and spill into storage bags.
  3. Waste a lot of time separating the greens from the blues, since some of the icons make it kinda hard to see the background color.
  4. Move any decent-quality items with good stats into storage bags.
  5. Sell all of the junk.

What I'd like it to be like:

  1. Run up to an item on the map and look at its stats.
  2. Decide if it should be picked up or sold then and there.
  3. Map stays clean as I can deal with all items on the spot.
  4. Go through the small pile of good items and see if they're upgrades for any of my characters.

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max is 12 bags atm... wich it wasnt enought, but now that eggs worth ***, i can use those 2 extra bags to pick and sell everything..

this new things they add come from bad to worse.

@jokke1989dk quote:


@todaz quote:

yeah. da *** trendy. how about we go forward in convenience than backwards?. You literally made us HAVE TO PICK UP EVERYTHING


Which means you are not gonna have any space in your bags.  which means most of your bags will be dedicated to trash bags. and then scavenger will be the new TIB(with way more inconvenience. Thank you autohotkey so i don't have to press e a billion times).


why do i have to pick up everything you ask? Well play onslaught and then try to get to the item you want to check out without picking up any item.

Trendy want us to buy more bags


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you can do what i do.. i leave 2 empty bags, at the top, so everything you pick goes there... 

that works great for onslaught... so once you end wave 3, you can pick, selet what you wanna keep, and sell the rest,.. 

either way, this is gonna be the "way" to do it after each 1-2 waves... 

scavenger - 1000  USELESS !!!!

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@antiproton quote:

Their intention is that inventory management is a non-trivial part of the gameplay. Not picking up anything, and then going into the TiB and picking out the items that are interesting, while the rest of it just gets sold, is counter to their plans for how players interact with items both in the world and in their inventory. 

Not picking up items during game play is unintended. Auto-selling 99% of items without user interaction is unintended.

I know this because these are the two things primarily changed by introducing the Scavenger. And also because they said as much on the stream. 

The intended purpose of the TiB was overflow space. You picked up too many items and had no more room. But those items could be valuable, so you don't want to auto-sell or lose them, so they go to the TiB. 

With the TiB, inventory space was effectively pointless. You just let everything go to the TiB, cherry pick the 10-15 items you wanted from the run and everything else goes to the black void. 


I don't personally believe the Scavenger was the right solution for the problem, but I can certainly see why he was introduced and what kind of behavior they are trying to drive. 

Good Points there.

The unintended part is because thier itemsystem dont work with this kind of Scavanger.

Funny is that it would work with the old DD1 Item System.

If they want to keep the Scavanger how he is, they would need some old Features:


1. Items on the ground getting autoselled at the start of the next Wave.

In DD1 we had way more drops of Items every wave just because everything on the ground got selled in the General Manapool. Even normal Mobs droped a good amount of items because of this.

This would fix the too many Items for the world and with less items on the ground its easier to look through. It also kills the trash items overflow in the bags.

Not to forget that we fix the current problem of DD2 that we have always the feeling to lose cash if we dont picking everything up.


2. Items can be checked from a big distance.

If we are forced to look trough the items while we are on a map, we should be able to check the items fast without running 10 min around on the map.


3. Items have an Indicator that shows if the items are better or weaker then the equiped Items.

In the old DD1 you where able to check from the big distance and also see an indicator on all items (red, green, grey) if they are even worth to look at.

This makes it even easier to sort the items on the fly.


With this 3 points the "Scavanger" would only be needed for that what he currently is used. Just to hold your Stuff that you cant carry anymore.


And if they want to change the Scavanger... just make him to the old TIB...


Just my 2 cents ^^


ps.: Sry for my bad english T.T

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I've always sorted all of the "keeper" items and pet stuff in the last bags... Basically, first 4 bags were free-for-all, next 4 were eggs and pet related crap, then a bag for each specific class. It worked well until my lazy ass had to pick everything up. hehe

@ķΐnĢ ƒΐ©ĸ€® quote:

you can do what i do.. i leave 2 empty bags, at the top, so everything you pick goes there... 

that works great for onslaught... so once you end wave 3, you can pick, selet what you wanna keep, and sell the rest,.. 

either way, this is gonna be the "way" to do it after each 1-2 waves... 

scavenger - 1000  USELESS !!!!


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I would say if the issue is that we're supposed to interact with loot more that this is a core gameplay issue. This is the third time the devs have made the same game, expecting it to play differently by putting in the same core gameplay is misguided.

There are a number of ways to address the issue such as:


Make the core game more challenging ... scale properly for multiple players ... require that defensive players be actively interacting with defenses not just building an AFK or everyone switching to DPS. This encourages hybrid builds and gets everyone moving around the map. It actually gives players other than the builder a reason to have build stats. - Give an aura of tower boost to EVERYONE based on their tower stats, etc. Give passives like tower repair to spheres


Have the fusion system take the item TYPE into account ... give more weight to the same item type (e.g. fusing a helmet with another helmet) than just to rarity of item level. This encourages people to chase specific item types rather than loot/sell everything


Get the sort options from eternity in pronto ... being able to sort and lock what you want to keep was a still slightly clunky but much easier way to mass-sort items after a match


Put in another way to get gold ... don't make loot/sell the way to make money. Give match money based on kills, upgrades, repairs, Tower kills would be weighted between the builder, anyone who upgraded that tower and anyone who repaired it for a significant amount. This also screws AFKers ! Imagine a system that makes people engage with the game !


As im not being paid to design the game i'll leave it there, but there are tons of ways to make people engage more with loot that aren't just screwing everyone by leaving their stuff on the ground.


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Well... I'm really going to miss the TIB but I've been rolling with this for a bit and it's not terrible. Just not as convenient. People are making it out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is. 

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the mechanic as it is isnt actually too bad.  the only thing i believe would make it better is more item stacking *cough* pet food *cough*, the scavenger having a different icon above his head when he has stuff, and a bit more inventory space.  

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Once we're able to lock bags so they can only have items manually dragged in there (as in picking up items on the ground won't be placed in locked bags), *then* I'll consider it on par with what the TIB used to be.

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FOR ME once they added auto looting I think they achieved their goal.  It is kind of annoying enough to make you want bags but doesn't take away from the fun of the game. I have to agree with [[31834,users]] locking bags would land this right back to as good as it was.

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