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gigazelle

The fundamental flaws with current hero combat

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

@Rose quote:

easyliest

It may be a typo, but this must become a new word. :)

yeah if i don't know how to write word i just write it somehow...sometime i don'e even sure that my words exist...but who cares xD (too lazy to use translater every time this happens =\ )

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Yo, just tested my monk build, before gear wipe. Currently with a lvl 13 pet aswell. 
I can get 172k Yellow dps number on a dummy.
If anyone is keen to run some hero dps challenges or anything before the wipe, hit me up. got 3 toons max gear ready to roll, and will bring my 500k cades with me :)

This is with just the Dragon stance right click and pet nuke, no left clicks added in. (while running impact pole)
YOrpgrt.jpg?1

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@ally quote:


 focusing balance is fine, but don't focus on it that much to the point where every hero has to be equal. 

Bring back all the good aspects of DD1. In DD1 you could get a cool accessory drop at any level and end up using it endgame for looks or stats. There was always incentive to play and every time you got an Ultimate++ drop it just made you tingle knowing you may have just made bank. 

Cannot thumbs up enough!   What OP said and what this guy ^ said sum up exactly the reason I haven't been playing DD2 since the first few days I poured 30 hours into it.   No point in writing up a big post since they already said everything perfectly, make hero dmg usefull, and stop making us do less dmg the higher level we are.   When I can handle a lane on my own and feel usefull with a well farmed DPS huntress build, (And I don't mean just when I have my abilities and mana up, I mean consistently) I'll start playing again and recommending this game to my friends

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[[93260,users]] your epeen is marvellous, and your eliteness is grand.  Its nearly too much for me to handle in the monrning. I know you can kill mobs if you have a full bar of mana and your cool downs are up, but the discrepancy of a hero's attack vs hero's abilities is way out of balance. Thank you again for pointing out you need x y items as a dps'r. Having to rely on special items, cool downs and abilities to consistently kill trash mobs that my towers can easily handle gives me no motivation to play as a DPS. Why do I need to go through all that trouble just to kill trash mob? Also, why would I need to conserve/manage my mana when towers can handle the mobs perfectly fine? The only time hero intervention is even remotely required is when a special or ogre shows its face, in which case my mana and abilities are always ready.

Im all for challenging ogres/bosses, that is when your cooldowns and abilities actually matter. At the moment playing a DPS character is not fun and it is underwhelming for me. Yeah you can sit around and blast off those 130k piercing shots or 120k dragon stances, which is just enough damage to take down trash mobs in nm4. Having to rely on burst damage and cooldowns just to take down trash mobs is demotivating when you compare it to towers that can 1 shot them.

I am not here to compare epeens, or how elite I am. Im here to discuss the issue of playing a DPS character and how underwhelming and un fun it is to play. You obviously enjoy having to rely on cooldowns and abilities just to kill trash mobs, but for me I do not enjoy it.

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Hero decks, for solo players, is severely limiting in this aspect. If you play with just one other person that has a waller or traptress, problem solved. For DPS heros, apps and monks are indeed too weak from my playing experience. AP huntress with the debuff bow can do a lot of dmg but still can't hold a lane for the higher tiered game modes. Squires aren't too bad. I can fight/tank a middle mixed res lane without a serenity and maintain 31k dps. All I need is a good wall behind me. Ogres though, when they start coming out with 7and 8 million hp are troublesome though with how long it takes to down them and their leap eventually breaking your mana bank while repairing walls. Provoke works to get their attention and all bosses will focus on the hero first if they are nearby, BUT you can NOT walk any boss away from walls even while taunted. That is what bugs me.


Bottom line, there are some successful builds for a hero dps, but not balanced by any means. Hero dps does need lovin'. At this point in time though, be patience is still best. Trendy is making leaps and bounds on a consistent basis right now. Give them time. Adapt with each update and enjoy the game.

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@cheeseburglr quote:

peekaboss your epeen is marvellous, and your eliteness is grand.  Its nearly too much for me to handle in the monrning. I know you can kill mobs if you have a full bar of mana and your cool downs are up, 

I am not here to compare epeens, or how elite I am. Im here to discuss the issue of playing a DPS character and how underwhelming and un fun it is to play. You obviously enjoy having to rely on cooldowns and abilities just to kill trash mobs, but for me I do not enjoy it.

For starters, I am not here to show off, nor am i here to talk about how grand my epeen is mate. I am here to show you that the build is viable, and the only way i can think of having a voice that is heard, is via personal testing and proof. Those numbers, were my numbers, and im sure with min maxing you could achieve greater results. There are a number of players out there just as, if not more geared than me, it's not about that. It is about the viablity of the build, which it works! 
Just because it's more difficult, doesn't make it any less viable.
Consider Mobas, Spellcasters dominate early game, physical damage dominates lategame. 

I believe i have valid points to the discussion,  i figured i would share my insight on the topic, Using my own tests and numbers because i have the ability to test it from an endgame level. 

If you don't enjoy relying on cds, try altering your build, using hero damage and crit. 
If you want to maximize efficiency, the above builds i posted is arguably the most efficient way to run them. 
having tested that monk build earlier on today, i was able to stunlock a 2mil hp tuskar from full to 0 without any tower support or a serenity. Now consider the fact, that you cost no DU and you are just a supporting factor to your defences currently, not the major source of damage which you are implying you want the game direction to go. That is some pretty crazy damage. 
Hero damage is viable, it's just not crazy Over powered.

Hero damage in the current meta is SUPPORT, not Carry, It isn't there to carry your game, and nor should it be. drop some cades in nm2-3 on the firsts maps if you wanna feel over powered and solo the whole map, but to face the content at the same level you are at, i think the balance is correct.. instead of sitting back and repairing, why not bring the fight to the mobs and spend your mana upgrading. 

You are compairing everything to DD1 Where hero damage was Over powered, They are taking a different direction with it in this game, and i personally favor it.

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[[93260,users]] thank you for giving a good reply. Yes, I am comparing hero damage from DD1. I liked it and I felt it was good. In DD1 even though your hero's could rip apart the enemy, it was very rare to ever see someone build a map so their DPS could carry.  The only reason you needed a DPS was to kill bosses. 

Maybe I'm lazy, maybe I'm unskilled..I'm probably both, but at the moment I don't like the feel of hero damage. DD2 will be free to play and I don't think it will do any good if it looses players on either side of this discussion. I hope they can compromise somewhere in between, because the way it is now, once I finish all the maps there's no way I'm gonna bother farming if i don't enjoy the dps character.

I think I've replied and conveyed my thoughts enough on this topic.

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When they see 2 stats on a given item is too little then hybrids may be viable, for me personally every one in my hero deck is a builder so I'm screwed. ><

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@Dakkon quote:

When they see 2 stats on a given item is too little then hybrids may be viable, for me personally every one in my hero deck is a builder so I'm screwed. ><

It would be very interesting to see if all gear was dropped as hybrids. Not saying I'd like it, but it'd be cool to at least try it out.

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@Tenatious quote:

When I can handle a lane on my own and feel usefull with a well farmed DPS huntress build, (And I don't mean just when I have my abilities and mana up, I mean consistently) I'll start playing again and recommending this game to my friends

And then you'll take your friends and go blast through NM4 with just hero DPS, skipping all that tedium involved with actually building defenses?  If a hero can hold a lane on his or her own, what need is there for defenses anymore on most maps?

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@cheeseburglr quote:

Peekaboss thank you for giving a good reply. Yes, I am comparing hero damage from DD1. I liked it and I felt it was good. In DD1 even though your hero's could rip apart the enemy, it was very rare to ever see someone build a map so their DPS could carry.  The only reason you needed a DPS was to kill bosses. 

Many maps in DD1 were structured very differently though, with multiple crystals very far from each other and more lanes.  Combine that with the spiders and goblin copters coming from every which way, and winning a map with hero DPS alone was extremely hard.

By contrast, most maps in DD2 have a single objective to defend.  In maps that have two or more, they are mostly so close to each other that a ranged hero could defend all of them from a stationary perch.

I can see how improving hero DPS would make it feel more satisfying, but with the current maps it just wouldn't be good for the game.

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@tdb quote:

And then you'll take your friends and go blast through NM4 with just hero DPS, skipping all that tedium involved with actually building defenses?  If a hero can hold a lane on his or her own, what need is there for defenses anymore on most maps?

That's when you introduce enemies that aim to kill the hero but are weak to defense damage. If you're DPS'ing a lane and you die, you've pretty much cost the entire match.

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@tdb quote:


@Tenatious quote:

When I can handle a lane on my own and feel usefull with a well farmed DPS huntress build, (And I don't mean just when I have my abilities and mana up, I mean consistently) I'll start playing again and recommending this game to my friends

And then you'll take your friends and go blast through NM4 with just hero DPS, skipping all that tedium involved with actually building defenses?  If a hero can hold a lane on his or her own, what need is there for defenses anymore on most maps?

Blast through NM4? Hold up buddy, I said a well farmed build, I'm not talking about being instantly OP, still gotta play the game.... I'm still talking about earning the stats the same way defense build does, but actually getting rewarded for the effort with real hero dmg numbers


Also one of the great things about dd1 was that on most maps there were too many lanes and challenges to hold with just hero dmg, but hero dmg was still viable and could hold a lane with little or no deference for the first few waves while defenses were getting built up.  That felt rewarding and fun and was actually required often times

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People that say that hero dps is fine must be trolls. I have a Huntress with 350 iPWR and there is no way in hell I could handle a line myself even on a map that drops gear with a 250 item level.

My piercing shot does 55k dmg which is barely enough to kill the weakest enemies. All my items have ability power and I even have +215 from the spheres.

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I think Hero dps needs some love, but I don't think a hero should be able to hold a lane on his/her own.  Maybe hold down a lane til help arrives, but that would be pulling out all stops.  That being said, I think a dps specced hero should be significantly more powerful than any single tower.  Maybe have their basic attack worth 2 towers or so with their abilities adding even more damage.

Also, having enemies die quicker as your level increases is fine, but only if the level of the enemies remains static.  My feeling more powerful as I progress doesn't have anything to do with how quickly I dispatch enemies, but rather with the difficulty of the content I can complete.


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@gigazelle quote:


@Dakkon quote:

When they see 2 stats on a given item is too little then hybrids may be viable, for me personally every one in my hero deck is a builder so I'm screwed. ><

It would be very interesting to see if all gear was dropped as hybrids. Not saying I'd like it, but it'd be cool to at least try it out.

Actually, I'd prefer if DPS gear dropped with only DPS/Survivability stats and Builder gear dropped with only Builder stats.  Then we'd all be a little less susceptible to the RNG gods...


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@gigazelle quote:What are your thoughts on hero combat right now? ¹
Does it feel satisfying once you leave campaign? ²
If it is or is not satisfying, what is your reasoning behind it? ³

¹ I main a huntress. Combat feels... slow. Like you've put it, leveling up makes the hero feel weaker thanks to the "harder, healthier, faster, stronger" approach to monster difficulty^. Attacks are lackluster. The "heal" ability is quite useless - it's better to simply die & respawn or rely on a serenity instead. Picking les threats up is quite messy (punching or shooting those whiterbeasts is sometimes impossibru, as other ranged mobs like to hang around on the exact same distance / overall spot at the same time). I personally dislike combat being obligatory on all the modes (really miss that "strategist" feeling that survival had on DD1, as a "build and forget" mode with optional interaction).

² Nope.

³ By the point when all enemies are already introduced, you can count on pretty much every wave being a mess and having at least some of everything all over the place (read "floaty healers everywhere"). It becomes "same old, same old" way too soon. This could potentially be fixed with the introduction of new enemy types, addition of enemies specific to certain maps and overall removal of this "everything will end up appearing at least once on every game" thing that we have going on currently... as I wouldn't mind something like a "Gates of Dragonfall" NM3 map with just small critters, but in really really high quantities... instead of 10+ drakins.

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As long as dps don't get to DD1 levels i'm fine cause after i learned how to build a dps hero most bosses and ogres were just high hp mobs that died in 3 secs =/.

Take the desert map from DD1 even tho it had lanes everywhere i could be where i needed i could run to the lane i needed without the carpets and kill ogres before they were even threats, till this day idk even know if the boss there can even attack cause it just hops from lamp to lamp before it can do anything. 

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Maybe not one-shotting bosses like in DD1, but there is something to be said about one-shotting goblins with your bow. I feel like I'm straight out of Lord of the Rings going full-on Legolas killing goblin after goblin with a single arrow.

Right now that requires me doing free play easy with an ipwr 300 bow, but still, I enjoy it.

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well.

i believe everyone enjoyed the game a lot playing through the campaign.

Cause the balance between the hero and his towers seems just right.

But suddenly when you enter free mode you have to start stacking DP or AP or DH  and later harty blockades and frosty power etc - else you won't be strong enough... suddenly builders appear so you drop all your mana to them  and you play your dps hero and as you progress throughout the game, your heros actualyl regress, from being all arounders they turn to specialized one trick ponies due to the hero deck, so it is better to stack DP with one hero build stuff and switch to your DPS - this should never ever ever ever be a possibility  :( but even worse the game is more and more balanced around just that.

and while the shared DU etc does encourage teamplay... the green mana treasure boxes contradict them.
and whats the point of playing a 4 player game when you usually have one person building while the others fall asleep.

my experience showed me that it was the greatest fun to play campaign, solo but even more so multiplayer. but as soon as you enter free mode suddenly soloing becomes more enjoyable. simply because builds have to be perfect and specialized and people can mess up your game hard... and they do so quite regularly. Not because they are bad at the game but because the game suddenly changes to the worse and it takes about 30 hours of playtime to notice what's happening -> which translates to: stop playing your one hero and start leveling up your other 3 because your one hero has become useless and you need all 3 even tho if you don't want to you have to!


the TLDR:  

allowing to bring more than one hero to the match is silly, the game should be balanced around campaign mode where you only have one hero available all the way through - trust me on this one !!

complementary to the above remove shared DU points and give each player his own DU points according to the map size.

This gives each player his very own style and capabilities to contribute to a given match.

go full hero dps be a full time builder , become a tank  or a hybrid between both. not a problem if the game is balanced just around the fact that there is only one hero per player.

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The thought of the game having to be balanced around just one player, on one hero, is ridiculous at best.

No, no, no, and no. It would be absolutely silly to try to do that. I was able to beat the campaign and progress through free play pretty easily using only an apprentice. Once I start pushing into harder difficulties it should need a bit more. End of story.

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