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cheeseburglr

Hero damage and abilities exempt from lane resistance

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I find it somewhat annoying when Im playing on a geared dps character its unable to kill x mob because they have 75% resistance to my damage. Can we get an if statement to the code to check if the damage comes from a hero it takes full damage, or even 70% of hero damage. 



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How so? even when attacking a lane that isn't resistant to my attacks it doesn't make anything any easier. My defenses can get by just fine without hero damage. The only thing resistance does is make the hero useless when they are up against  a lane that is resistant to their damage. 

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Also, whats the point of gearing up a dps hero when it becomes useless against a resistant lane because your hitting enemies like a wet paper towel? To me it just feels like dps hero's aren't powerful.  The only thing they are good for is to kite/stun enemies away from barriers. 

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My huntress can mow down an entire lane of NM4 enemies with 120k damage phoenix. Everyone would just be slaughtering entire maps with AP heroes if magic damage worked on everything. If a lane is resistant to something then you either use a different attack type or move to another lane. Most people would call that sorta thing, "skill."

@cheeseburglr quote:

 My defenses can get by just fine without hero damage.

If this is true then why complain about needing more hero damage? Go back to your solo play. You clearly know nothing about how good AP damage can be. If you do poor damage while on a builder its because that character is a builder.

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I have brought this up in the past as well. It is made even worse when you look at the damage type mix on a single hero. Squire attacks are phys, sword beam and earth smash magic. No matter the lane a Squire is always half a hero. 

Huntress has the clearest example of this disconnect. The large sphere that makes your attacks randomly be a full charge secondary shot. Sounds great until you see that her primary shot is phys and secondary shot is magic. Against a magic res lane those charged shot from the sphere do less damage than the normal shots. Against a phys res lane you are better off charging every shot. The sphere is at best null and against half of the lanes a detriment.

Huntress and Squire can at least jump resist and at least still contribute. Apprentice is severely hurt by magic resist and cannot contribute at all to a magic res grounded lane.

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As it is now we actually have to make strategic plans about which dps hero we should use on which lane. If I have eg only a squire, then I should reinforece the physical resistance lane-defenses and use lesser defenses on the lanes I protect with my hero.

Do I understand the described problem correctly? It is a problem physical resistance enemies get too less dmg by physical hero attacks and the same with magical resistance?

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I know how much overpowered the hunter is to the other DPS specced classes. I do have a hunter, and she can also do a phoenix shot for 126k, but i don't like playing a ranged character.

Skill...Moving from one lane to another because of resistance....ok...that really takes some skill. TBH the skill is in your tower placements. Let me repeat I don't need to be on my DPS character to win the map. I go on my DPS character so I can kill stuff with my character, and have fun. Why must my hero be limited to what it can kill?

I get the whole resistance/strategy for towers, but now I gotta be strategic with what dps character i wanna play? and where it plays? FYI im not a solo player, 99% of my games are public games.

One of the great things with DD1 was gearing up a DPS hero after you geared your builders. Running around and just messing stuff up, that was fun. The way it is now I find zero enjoyment playing a dps hero.

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[[12589,users]] Yes that is the problem. Physical resistance enemies get too less dmg by physical hero attacks and the same with magical resistance. I do not like the pigeon hole of what dps character I have to play on and where I have to play due to the fact I cant kill them. 

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[[54189,users]] Thanks, I wanted to make sure if I understand the complaint right before I disagree anyhow. ^^ Because to me it does not seem that abd. Although I must admit that I did not play nightmare yet, so it might be worse there.

Do you mean the percentage of resistance is too high or is it higher regarding hero dps? Until now I used to use my skills - like the mentioned seismac slam - on both resistance lanes, but mainly to stun/distract enemies so my defenses will kill them easier.


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Guys, just remember days on NM4 before new passives were released.

Any Lines:

1 squire can hold any line ALONE. Without any Defences. Just 2 cades. Even SA doesnt needed if u have vamp ability. HD, AP squire. (15-20k dps multi-target autoattack, or 30-40k multi-target skills.)

Hunt with AC bow. OP everywhere.


PhysRes lines even easier:

Hunt: 150-200k firebird + 20-30k oil = win.

Appi: 20-25k 2ndary fire every 2 sec + skills = win


Result: DPS chars're ok.


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@cheeseburglr quote:One of the great things with DD1 was gearing up a DPS hero after you geared your builders. Running around and just messing stuff up, that was fun. The way it is now I find zero enjoyment playing a dps hero.

So this is what it really comes down to. You don't enjoy having to think about things. You want dps heroes to be easy mode. You want to run around one shotting everything because it feels good. Of course if we get the game re-balanced this way then dps heroes will be massively abused.

NM modes are supposed to be about challenging players to play better. Part of playing better is using your attacks and abilities smarter.

Redline said it right, every dps hero has a huge advantage in any lane even if its the wrong type for their abilities. I would even add that apprentice may be magic damage only but yet he can perma-tornado a lane preventing them from attacking for the mostpart.

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@› Rabid Lemming quote:


@cheeseburglr quote:One of the great things with DD1 was gearing up a DPS hero after you geared your builders. Running around and just messing stuff up, that was fun. The way it is now I find zero enjoyment playing a dps hero.

So this is what it really comes down to. You don't enjoy having to think about things. You want dps heroes to be easy mode. You want to run around one shotting everything because it feels good. Of course if we get the game re-balanced this way then dps heroes will be massively abused.

NM modes are supposed to be about challenging players to play better. Part of playing better is using your attacks and abilities smarter.

Redline said it right, every dps hero has a huge advantage in any lane even if its the wrong type for their abilities. I would even add that apprentice may be magic damage only but yet he can perma-tornado a lane preventing them from attacking for the mostpart.

I disagree, I think only squire and monk have huge advantage in any lane over apprentice and huntress. Monk and squire can push enemy back where as apprentice and huntress has to slow them down as much as possible.   And beside, a tornado can't knock the enemy up if they have the trait of no knock up.

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I dont care about being able to 1 shot enemies. Im complaining about coming up against a lane that your character is gimped because of resistance. I dont see the difference with removing hero damage resistance and switching to appropriate DPS character. Either way, if i switch to appropriate DPS character then I AM doing full damage, the only difference is the character I HAVE to use. 

The only thing resistance does is restrict what a dps hero i have to use, and where it has to stay.

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A dps character is meant to kill things. I can very much easily kite/stun/slow mobs on a builder character, so whats the point of a dps character?

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@cheeseburglr quote:

A dps character is meant to kill things. I can very much easily kite/stun/slow mobs on a builder character, so whats the point of a dps character?

To dps enemies. Just need to stop being a moron and targeting the wrong ones with the wrong attacks. Its called playing the game. Quit being dense. You want easy mode dps for NM mode. That's all this is about.

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I know how to play the game. I know what skills to use on what mobs. I know where i need to stay if i want to be the most effective, but I find it annoying and boring having to be on a certain character and be stuck in a certain position. You obviously fail to see how this restriction will hurt the game in the long run.

Your name calling fails to add substance to the argument.

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My Huntress and my Monk are both fully capable of supporting both physical and magical resistant lanes, and therefore aren't really trapped in a 'specific position'. Squire and Apprentice have it tough since their off-damage type is really... bad (or in the case of the Apprentice, fully non-existent). Maybe if those two had real off-choice damage skills it'd make for a more resounding argument.

If heroes were exempt from resistances, everyone would just roll Monk ultimately, since he has the highest sustainable DPS over time in a clean AoE against no resistances, or Huntress if you're lazy and just want to one-shot an entire lane on a 16-20 second cooldown and/or are DPSing an Ogre (since hybrid Monk can't tank worth a damn and can't really get in to properly DPS without getting smacked).

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@Saintone quote:

My Huntress and my Monk are both fully capable of supporting both physical and magical resistant lanes, and therefore aren't really trapped in a 'specific position'. Squire and Apprentice have it tough since their off-damage type is really... bad (or in the case of the Apprentice, fully non-existent). Maybe if those two had real off-choice damage skills it'd make for a more resounding argument.

If heroes were exempt from resistances, everyone would just roll Monk ultimately, since he has the highest sustainable DPS over time in a clean AoE against no resistances, or Huntress if you're lazy and just want to one-shot an entire lane on a 16-20 second cooldown and/or are DPSing an Ogre (since hybrid Monk can't tank worth a damn and can't really get in to properly DPS without getting smacked).

Yep without resistances certain dps would just stomp all over the hardest maps. Dps heroes would become a requirement since they would do so much better than towers. I'd support certain characters like apprentice getting more variation (not huntress as argued previously). Sadly that's not what this whole thread is about. Its about bad solution to something that is hardly a problem.

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If they did remove the resistance they would obviously need to rebalance the dps of hero's which I am fine with.

You say by removing the resistance the hero will stomp all over the hardest maps. As it stands now, if I am on a hunter and I stand at a physical resistant lane. I use my oil then phoenix. Guess what? I am doing 100% of my damage with those skills. Therefore i am "stomping" all over that lane. If i stick my monk in a magical resistant lane he can also "stomp" all over that lane. The only thing resistance is doing is restricting what character I have to be on and where I have to stand.

I agree a monk and squire can hold any lane, but by "holding" all you are saying they can stun/slow/knock back the mobs so the towers can kill them. I've said this before, I can do that perfectly fine on a builder character.

You are thinking too much on the lines of if they remove resistance the DPS hero will be overpowered, but that is easily fixed with hero damage scaling. People have stated, if you stand in the correct lane you can 1 shot/mow down mobs, but to me that looks like the hero needs to be nerfed, mainly hunter. All I want is a constant hero damage output, so it doesn't matter where I stand or what character I play I am doing the same damage.

I would like to point it out again. I do not need my dps hero to complete the map. I jump on my dps hero to have fun, it is not fun when I am restricted. I can stomp all over the map regardless if i am active or not.

For all those who are saying it is fine. Please try this out. Go play on NM4 with a monk or squire. Go to a physical resistant lane. Fight the mobs away from any towers. I know what you are thinking. It is stupid to fight away from defences, but the thing is, no matter what character you use wether it be a DPS or a builder as long as you fight within the defences you are given the illusion you are killing them. All the heavy work is done by the towers. The only thing you are doing is slowing/stunning and adding that extra bit of damage, the truth is if you stood afk the towers can handle things perfectly fine on their own.

The main reason for farming for gear once you've reached decent builder stats is to gear a DPS'r. In no way am i saying as soon as you make a DPS character it should 1 shot everything, but with time, upgrading and farming for appropriate gear you should eventually get close to it. I am one of those 2000 hour players in dd1, I know what drove me to continue to farm those countless hours of akatiti, skycity, boss rush, kings game etc, it was to get dps gear for my characters. Higher and higher damage so I could destroy enemies and bosses quicker.

As the game stands with its current build, I have pretty much finished the game. I have no desire to farm and gear up my dps characters due to the current restriction. For me, end game is gearing up a DPS character to make him/her powerful. There is no point to farm for tower gear if my towers already 1 shot things, and no point farming for more health on my blockades when they hardly dip below 50%. DPS character farming is the only reason why I would bother farming countless hours after finishing the game. 

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Huntress and Monk are perfectly viable at killing. They are fun (read: RELATIVELY) to play if you build them right, because they can roam to any part of the map and deal with any type of enemy (Monk doesn't do so hot physically vs. flying enemies, but that's an exception) with no issue. Huntress can focus all of her damage in physical or magical, and thus is better, but Monk is decent too, despite the strongest DPS build for it splitting the damage types in half (hence, why I say it's the strongest class against no resistances). 140K damage Stickynades on a 4 second cooldown, or 200K damage Piercing Shot on a 16 second cooldown on the Huntress is outrageous for either damage types. Monk can put up a constant 100K DPS +- 20K, but since it's reduced to 62.5% power vs. resistances it's never fully efficient in higher difficulties.

Apprentice gets dumpstered when against Grounded or Magic Resistant enemies and Squire cannot DPS worth a damn, especially against Physical Resistant. Those classes are immensely boring because they have little to no roam capability, besides for Squire just to tank (read: BORING).

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@RedL1ne quote:

Result: DPS chars're ok.


I won't lie that some of the abilities do hit hard - but to say that DPS characters are "fine" is a flat out lie. DPS characters in general are boring as hell to play. Not to mention if you're not using phoenix fire on a huntress, you're stuck with hitting like a wet paper towel. It's seriously bad. But I know that DPS in general does need some love, so I'm hoping to see things like multiple projectiles back, and whatnot. But in the meantime, it's.... very boring. Very quick, regardless of how hard an ability hits. 


DPS  (specifically huntress abilities) are fine, but I can't help but feel that auto attacks in general need a LOT of love lol. 

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Saintone I know a Hunter and Monk can kill things, I never said they couldn't. I know if you play in the right lane killing is somewhat easier. Any character can be effective in any lane purely because of their CC abilities,  but I can CC perfectly fine on my builders. Let me put it this way. If you were to play as a pure dps character. Hold 1 lane that is your resist. Have zero support from blockades or towers. Would you find it fun? I know it is extreme, but it is to point out the issue.

Playing a dps character within the tower defences masks the issue of how useless a dps character can actually be. You can be just as effective using a builder character.

Tristaris I agree auto attacks is probably the main issue. Having to rely on character cool downs to actually kill/damage anything leads to a pretty stale and boring gameplay. Activate skill, wait x seconds, activate skill, wait x seconds. I can throw in an auto attack, but it only makes me laugh.

I am only focused on end game play, which is the 75% resist.  Your DPS character will only ever be able to do 25% of its damage if it were to go up against its resist. The current DPS hero is so restricted and a joke to play. If players haven't figured it out yet they eventually will.

ideal fix:

- hero damage and abilities are exempt from lane resistances.

- hero damage and abilities are reduced by a percentage according to difficulty level. This way I can play where ever i want, and not feel like I'm trying to tickle the enemy.

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@Tristaris quote:DPS characters in general are boring as hell to play.

Well i thought that im playing Tower Defence game, not "one more shooter with towers..."


@cheeseburglr quote:

 If you were to play as a pure dps character. Hold 1 lane that is your resist. Have zero support from blockades or towers.

You can do this right now. Or?...

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[[87747,users]] no its pretty much impossible to do. It's to amplify and demonstrate how useless a dps character is as a dps'r

My take of the DPS character and what I loved about dd1 is that its something you create after you are able to lay down solid defensive towers.  A dps character should not be needed if it were a true Tower Defence game, but thats not what dungeon defenders is. We have the option to create one, and at the moment they are lacking.

End game for me is playing on a dps character and farming for gear. If I don't find it fun to play, then there is no end game. 


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