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Trendy's Integrity Just went in the Gutter

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Note that I have been a pretty big fan of DD1 and DD2 and am not necessarily against the potential for future wipes. I do, however, have a problem with what we can expect from Trendy, their honesty with the players, and how they constantly think that we are stupid enough to pull the wool over at our expense so that Trendy can benefit time and time again, eking out as much as they can from us to succeed on launch.

First, it is true the game is in development and pretty early stage at that. We can expect wipes but some of us may be interested in only playing once or twice then just waiting until a later stage in development/release while hoping we don't miss out on anything important. Others would like to help but don't have the time to contribute to twenty different restarts from spam wiping. Despite this, if we are warned ahead we can play and plan accordingly. Sadly, Trendy has had a habit of claiming there are no currently planned wipes only to wipe (this is the second time I have seen a 180 on the topic with immediate update of impending wipe/partial wipe which is what this is, in reality, since I started). It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't saying there were no planned wipes only days prior or they were a little more honest about it. Can we expect them to keep their word of no wipes once we hit open-alpha? Beta? Release?

Now, onto the core of the issue which really has wrenched my trust in Trendy.

Two posts related to coming update:

@TrendyBrad quote:

I'm really glad you guys have all chimed in here. Regretfully, we don't currently have the ability to easily just re-scale down everyone's stats on items. We created a system (not player facing) which allows us to "version" items and run logic on the item, like removing a specific stat or re-populating the stats. Scaling the stats based on IPWER gets a little more complicated, however. 

This is a great idea for expanding our item versioning system, and we'll look to add this in the future. However, for this specific re-roll, all stats will be updated just as if the item dropped itself fresh again.

Like one person said, once you get into NM, you'll most likely be replacing that gear pretty quickly, so we're hoping this won't be too painful. That said, we do know this is frustrating, especially with the loss of items that had specific stats you were chasing, or gold invested to grow an item, which is why we wanted to thank everyone for their patience with the 4 exclusive accessories. 

@TrendyBrad quote:

All stats will be re-rolled for an item. It will be updated with stats based on what it could drop with when the item was freshly created.

So you are correct, Primary and Secondary stats should re-roll to new stats based on what's viable for that item type. For example, Weapons can ONLY have Hero Damage as the Primary Stat, so after the re-roll, they will get new values for Hero Damage. However, Weapons can have many different stats as Secondary Stats, and it will randomly pick one. The original Secondary Stat on the weapon today will have no impact on the new one it will get after the re-roll; it will pick from the valid pool of Secondary Stats.

Similarly, items that have a guaranteed passive (like the Betsy Weapon) will still have that guaranteed passive. 

Hope that adds even more clarity! 

As you can see TrendyBrad has gone out of the way to clarify we should be farming IPW 240 and lower gear. The problem, you see, is the claim that they must reroll items as if they were fresh with any potential stat on it. Every single tower builder you have may end up rolling as DPS/AP/random blah blah. TrendyBrad goes so far as to claim that the game does not support simple downgrading... This is an odd statement considering Patch 5.9 (https://www.dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/122584/hotfix-59) has the following:

  • Turned off Item Power downleveling.

This was something complained about so much that they had to disable the feature for maps because people couldn't farm weaker maps with their drastically superior NM gear as it would get downscaled to be worse than or equivalent to the best drops on a given map. This simply downgraded your DP from say 357 to 114, or AP, etc. based on IPW value.

This means some of us will be out of bloody luck because we wont roll reasonable builder stats unless we farm for it before (for an entire set of decent new gear for every character before the patch hits) forcing us to play Insane, or worse Hard/Medium because we lack the gear necessary while others get to start immediately at NM 240 IPW maps. This is just another ploy to collect as much data on balance/changes as they can before we hit beta. I am fine with doing it in a reasonable manner but this is utterly unacceptable, especially when coupled with the deceit here.

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It's possible that item power downleveling can only be turned on or off

What would be required to do here is to turn it on only 240+ ipwr items acquired before the patch and make it permanent so that they stay at 240, and only 240.



Coding things to be functional is tough enough for a one-two person team, let alone coding it to be easily manipulable and work well with additional commands put in after the fact.  It's very likely there's a lot of spaghetti code that wont allow for easy fixes.  Like, telling item power downleveling to

  • permanently
  • alter the ipwr of a specific range of items (240+)
  • to be down leveled to a specific amount (240)
  • for all maps. 

That's 4 additional functions of the original function.  Very possible they're telling the truth when they do not have the capabilities to do it right now.  I've said this before in one of the other reroll threads... and I understand this is tough to really understand for people who haven't had experience with devs being honest about how limited their creativity is :\

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I bought the definitive version of DD1.  It takes more than this to frazzle me.  Be angry if you want, but don't be surprised.


The easiest solution, and it would not necessarily be easy, would be to create a vendor that sells sets of ~240 gear.  Every max level character with an average ilvl over 240 is awarded a token at the time of the wipe, and these tokens can be used to purchase a set of gear of the player's choice (with sets obviously tailored towards walls, towers, player dps, etc).  That's a lot of work though when the goal is just to move forward with game development.

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trendy has stated many times that wipes can occur, but they will do their best to not wipe again. stop playing pre alpha if getting data wiped is not something you can deal with

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@Pachipachio quote:

It's possible that item power downleveling can only be turned on or off

What would be required to do here is to turn it on only 240+ ipwr items acquired before the patch and make it permanent so that they stay at 240, and only 240.



Coding things to be functional is tough enough for a one-two person team, let alone coding it to be easily manipulable and work well with additional commands put in after the fact.  It's very likely there's a lot of spaghetti code that wont allow for easy fixes.  Like, telling item power downleveling to

  • permanently
  • alter the ipwr of a specific range of items (240+)
  • to be down leveled to a specific amount (240)
  • for all maps. 

That's 4 additional functions of the original function.  Very possible they're telling the truth when they do not have the capabilities to do it right now.  I've said this before in one of the other reroll threads... and I understand this is tough to really understand for people who haven't had experience with devs being honest about how limited their creativity is :\

It is a possibility but even with such poor code they could likely produce a mandatory downscaling upon spawning into tavern or first map that downgrades all your IPW for first log in after the patch with a flag checking have you logged in at least once or not for a lazy as heck fix.

Heck, they could even take the core concept of how their downscaling works and reasonably produce a function to have it iterate through every item in the game's memory after the patch before bringing the game live. Not expecting them to solve NP Complete problems or write some amazing tech wizardry.

@Resident decoy quote:

trendy has stated many times that wipes can occur, but they will do their best to not wipe again. stop playing pre alpha if getting data wiped is not something you can deal with

It would likely help if you actually read my post as you are way off from what the post is about.

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Most of other games have free betas and thats ok to be wiped there sometimes.

But if devs sell game as partially finished product that's wrong in anyway to wipe players again and again.

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I learned my lesson after this most recent wipe and kind of figured another wipe or something similar was in the pipes once they mentioned that "Open Alpha" would be the definitive no wipe point. That being said I do feel bad for those that have farmed for hours, but It's no where near the time lost by players in the previous wipe. If these types of wipes do bother you it might be best to do what I did and take a step back from playing long hours and playing casually at least until open alpha comes around(they may change their minds about wiping at that point also).

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considering how much money and time i've spent on this game this sudden change made my last 100 hours of grinding useless, suddenly 4 of my max level builders can and most likely will be useless, as useless as this couple of weekend events. i'm okay even with full wipes, BUT only if game is finished. and now summer vacation is over. me and i believe many others who have jobs or study to attend to, wont have that much time to spend on the game. i'm hoping for the best but this changes makes me thing to go back to other games. my 'awe' for this game is turning into 'meh'

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I think there is a little confusion here on a few different features in DD2 and how they can be used.

The feature you're referencing from the patch was a dynamic downleveling feature we implemented about 1 or so years ago. What this feature does is looks at your current stats, or IPWR in the more recent patch, and what the minimum level is of the specific map based on values in the backend, and dynamically scales all your stats down to the baseline. 

So for example, if the MAX amount of Hero Damage you could have on gear is 40 on Freeplay Throne Room Hard, and you have 200, it would temporarily make the gear have an effective Hero Damage of 40. 

This information is NOT saved to the item, the profile, or is any way permanent. If we were to try and use this system in the way you described, it would scale ALL stats for a specific map/difficulty combo, regardless of where they came from, when you got them, or any other factor. Honestly, the system was a little broken when we made the IPWR switch, because it was designed way before IPWR was a concept. This, and player feedback, was a major reason we disabled it. 


As for the feature we're using for the re-roll - About 5 months ago we started the process of re-vamping all stats in our game. When we did this, we decided to spend extra time adding an item versioning system. The reason we invested this time was to help limit the scope of any wipes we ever have to do, because our mandate as a company is ONLY wipe if we need to, and try to limit the impact of any wipe to only the required areas. With how our item data is saved (it isn't entries in backend database, as some may assume, but a much different data setup that works better for security), this was a pretty complicated set of work, and some of the controls we wanted in how to remove/update/re-roll stats weren't possible at the time. We do have quite a bit of control, but we can't, right now, do everything.

This leads us to today. We have the ability to re-roll an item's stats, or sub-set of stats. So we can say "remove this passive and replace it with another passive from the list it can roll with," or we can say "re-roll all passives based on the passives it can roll with." We can have it re-populate it's Secondary and Primary stats again. We can only update specific sub-sets of items, like a specific IPWR range, or items with a specific range of stat on them. But sadly, we can't re-roll a specific stat to be a lower version of itself, even after investigating if it was a straightforward add to the versioning system. 


Our stance on wipes still hasn't changed - we really have no planned wipes, and we try to avoid wipes if at all possible. The reason you heard about this wipe a little late is because we had been working for almost a week trying to find a way to resolve the problem without executing a wipe, but nothing seemed to work. 

Hopefully that adds a little more clarity into what's happening. We've been trying our best to be up-front and honest with you, even going into technical details, so you, the community, can understand how DD2 is developed during this Pre-Alpha phase, and beyond. We know it can be frustrating at times, being involved with a game this early, what with all of the changes and issues that can crop up as we are developing, and really appreciate the feedback and support you've given us. 

Please let me know if you have any other questions and we'll do our very best to answer them. 




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@TrendyBrad quote:

I think there is a little confusion here on a few different features in DD2 and how they can be used.

The feature you're referencing from the patch was a dynamic downleveling feature we implemented about 1 or so years ago. What this feature does is looks at your current stats, or IPWR in the more recent patch, and what the minimum level is of the specific map based on values in the backend, and dynamically scales all your stats down to the baseline. 

So for example, if the MAX amount of Hero Damage you could have on gear is 40 on Freeplay Throne Room Hard, and you have 200, it would temporarily make the gear have an effective Hero Damage of 40. 

This information is NOT saved to the item, the profile, or is any way permanent. If we were to try and use this system in the way you described, it would scale ALL stats for a specific map/difficulty combo, regardless of where they came from, when you got them, or any other factor. Honestly, the system was a little broken when we made the IPWR switch, because it was designed way before IPWR was a concept. This, and player feedback, was a major reason we disabled it. 


As for the feature we're using for the re-roll - About 5 months ago we started the process of re-vamping all stats in our game. When we did this, we decided to spend extra time adding an item versioning system. The reason we invested this time was to help limit the scope of any wipes we ever have to do, because our mandate as a company is ONLY wipe if we need to, and try to limit the impact of any wipe to only the required areas. With how our item data is saved (it isn't entries in backend database, as some may assume, but a much different data setup that works better for security), this was a pretty complicated set of work, and some of the controls we wanted in how to remove/update/re-roll stats weren't possible at the time. We do have quite a bit of control, but we can't, right now, do everything.

This leads us to today. We have the ability to re-roll an item's stats, or sub-set of stats. So we can say "remove this passive and replace it with another passive from the list it can roll with," or we can say "re-roll all passives based on the passives it can roll with." We can have it re-populate it's Secondary and Primary stats again. We can only update specific sub-sets of items, like a specific IPWR range, or items with a specific range of stat on them. But sadly, we can't re-roll a specific stat to be a lower version of itself, even after investigating if it was a straightforward add to the versioning system. 


Our stance on wipes still hasn't changed - we really have no planned wipes, and we try to avoid wipes if at all possible. The reason you heard about this wipe a little late is because we had been working for almost a week trying to find a way to resolve the problem without executing a wipe, but nothing seemed to work. 

Hopefully that adds a little more clarity into what's happening. We've been trying our best to be up-front and honest with you, even going into technical details, so you, the community, can understand how DD2 is developed during this Pre-Alpha phase, and beyond. We know it can be frustrating at times, being involved with a game this early, what with all of the changes and issues that can crop up as we are developing, and really appreciate the feedback and support you've given us. 

Please let me know if you have any other questions and we'll do our very best to answer them. 




No, player feedback was the SOLE reason you disabled it. There were more than a dozen threads on the issue and they were high volume threads compared to a generally slow moving board after the wipe patch. The complaints lasted for several patches until it was disabled. It also devalued the feeling of growing stronger. Don't treat us like we are stupid.

You can easily modify it to save the data scaled down so that is non-issue, I don't even need to see the code to make this claim. It doesn't matter WHERE It came from with the current reroll method Trendy intends to employ, either.

So you claim the newly developed system can not dictate the type of stat? How is this a problem to resolve before the patch? You can even brute force it easily enough and have it check if stat is same type as previous type and keep rerolling until it gets a matching flag. You could, otherwise, use a more desirable method and simply code it to reroll within the given type. Don't act like no one here is familiar with programming, else you clearly haven't been paying enough attention to the boards with all the coding talk that has gone on on these forums. I haven't even gotten around to complaining about passive rerolls which is another degree of issues all on its own.

By all means clarify on my points. This is looking like another case of Riot games makes 1 billion revenue a year and still can't afford to fix their disaster of a client/bug infested game simply because... they can get by without it as long as player's don't make large enough noise.

Note that I would actually have welcomed this upcomming patch if it didn't put such an uneven playing field between players who got lucky on their reroll and simply stripped all gear or Trendy handled it more appropriate and also with the lack of honesty. I like how the map order and some other changes sound (enforcing us to try some of the more interesting maps, etc.) and giving us something to do. I also would love to hear any unrelated, but noted as such, communication regarding the goals for the state of projectile towers/frosty/dealing with the sheer amount of passives that can drop when farming a specific active character's gear, etc. but this is not a priority point to discuss as the main topic is (only mentioned because the lack of communication regarding these issues from Trendy). Goals/intention is valuable information even if it is not set in stone. Feedback becomes infinitely more valuable when there is active communication, as well.

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@MaximumRico quote:

Why are you making complete assumptions about things when you have absolutely no idea? Feedback wasn't the only reason it was disabled, and also and you pretend like the posts were back to back, not before things were developed and changed. You also have no idea how they are developing the game or the processes they are using. I also don't really see where he is trying to pretend no one is familiar with programming. You just seem upset and are trying to pick any way to rag on them.

How can you make so many incorrect assumptions in one post and provide nothing to the discussion? The one making assumptions here is you, and without any informed basis at that.

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I didn't assume anything, he stated right there and you chose to ignore the fact and say something is another way, like feedback being the reason downscaling was changed.

I read the posts, but I don't feel like getting in a flame war with someone who is clearly upset and wont listen to reason, so I will not.

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@MaximumRico quote:

I didn't assume anything, he stated right there and you chose to ignore the fact and say something is another way, like feedback being the reason downscaling was changed.

I read the posts, but I don't feel like getting in a flame war with someone who is clearly upset and wont listen to reason, so I will not.

Stated what exactly? The only thing he stated was that they could not do so and so and I disproved this and even showed examples where it was done in the past to further validate my point. The feedback being the reason downscaling was changed IS the reason it was changed, period. Unless you have worth while evidence to disprove this point you are making assumptions. If what he said was true why do you believe IPW downscaling was in the game for several patches post wipe patch? It doesn't match up. Look at my reply to TrendyBrad. Clearly I am being reasonable and willing to listen. You are the one being unreasonable and making baseless claims here. Please, do not post again in this thread if you aren't going to make a worth while post. I don't mind if you disagree so long as the post is not further nonsense that you have been putting forth.

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@TrendyBrad quote:

... can understand how DD2 is developed during this Pre-Alpha phase, and beyond. 

Please let me know if you have any other questions and we'll do our very best to answer them. 

While I appreciate the fact that you even take the time to respond [[59260,users]], it still infuriates me that you and everyone in this community continues to refer to DD2 as being in "pre-alpha" phase. I have been working in technology for nearly 20 years and I suggest you look at the software release lifecycle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

  1. Pre-Alpha

    The software is still under active development and not feature complete or ready for consumption by anyone other than software developers. There may be milestones during the pre-alpha which deliver specific sets of functionality, and nightly builds for other developers or users who are comfortable living on the absolute bleeding edge.

  2. Alpha

    The software is complete enough for internal testing. This is typically done by people other than the software engineers who wrote it, but still within the same organization or community that developed the software.

  3. Beta

    The software is complete enough for external testing -- that is, by groups outside the organization or community that developed the software. Beta software is usually feature complete, but may have known limitations or bugs. Betas are either closed (private) and limited to a specific set of users, or they can be open to the general public.

Let's stop the smoke screens and illusions and call DD2 what it is, a paid open beta and consider sharing a development timeline with your PAID community. 2,3,4 more years of development... what actually is the plan? If you really want to get down to the heart of the issue, i believe transparency with the timeline is what is needed. I, and others that get frustrated with the repeated 180's by development might be able to take them more in stride if we understood that we were still 1 or 2 years from release. 

Blix

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@MaximumRico quote:

Well, so are we basically just ignoring everything TrendyBrad posted? If so then yes, they are assumptions.

I guess you are missing the part about lying, integrity, and his assumption that we are too stupid to know what is and is not true. You also missed the part where I explained how easy it is to make the reroll non-issue even with the new IPW system they have developed. You also missed a lot of other issues... From this point forward I will no longer reply/pay heed to your replies if they are not constructive to the thread topic. You have, once again, failed to add to the discussion in any meaningful way, no thoughts, argument, or basis for your comments.

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@Blixer quote:

 ...

I feel like the introduction of Early Access has really distorted what alphas and betas are supposed to be. It's not just DD2, plenty of other Early Access games are largely incomplete with a astonishing amount of core features missing when they're "ready" for Early Access. In fact, it's quite worrying that there are Early Access games that are much worse than DD2 with devs barely responding to the players and sometimes they just go completely quiet, never to be heard from again. I know people are willing to pay for it and all, but providing the option for customers to pay to playtest your game doesn't really sit right with me.

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@Banzaiguy quote:


feel like the introduction of Early Access has really distorted what alphas and betas are supposed to be. 

Oh you are sooooo right and I completely agree with you. What's sad is that some steam customers are for the most part completely happy with getting 1/4 completed games, marketed as "early access" that never get completed further, ie CASH GRABs. I don't think this is at all what Trendy is up to... but I do think they have taken a more lackadaisical approach because they have money coming in via early access and they can hide behind the banner of "pre alpha/early access" as far as accountability of deliverables and a timeline to its customers. 

I recall waiting for 2 years for WoW to be released, but DD2 is no WoW. It's not redefining a genre like wow did. It's a follow up to an amazing co-op tower defense game, a genre that has a huge following of loyal fans and not enough games to satisfy their thirst. It seems to me they have a MAJOR issue with prioritization and to be honest they seem to lack any sense of urgency.

Publish a development timeline and If their manpower is split because they are focusing on porting dd2 to console, update the timeline/community. If they find major game breaking bugs due to the PAID beta that we are all participating in, update the timeline/community. If they decide new stats that are released one weekend, the following weekend were a complete gamebreaking mistake and they need to erase them... update the timeline/community.

My experience with DD2 to this point has been "Binge, Binge, Binge - wipe - huge multi-month break from the game return binge, binge, binge - wipe" and rinse repeat. This is not a bad thing... we do keep coming back to check on the status of the game, but I'm not going to lie, while I have enjoyed playing dd2 post wipe, grinding for gear, learning the build intricacies of new heros/new maps... it's really not THAT different from pre wipe. The UI is still the same barely usable UI, matchmaking still sux horribly, stats rolling/rerolling seem to be an afterthought, teamwork and balance seem to change as often as a new qq post is added to the forums about the current strongest build classes and I still see NO WAY for them to fund this game as "free to play" via microtransactions for vanity items (Do you really think a few costume purchases and a couple of bags are going to pay for these sloooowwwww developers to continue to improve this game...)


tl:dr - steam early access is the bane of PC gaming for customers. Dev's need to post a development timeline and be far more transparent about long term plans/goals. I use the term long term sparingly because if they follow the same model as they have to this point, they will just be considering DD2 to be entering beta status in 3 years from now.

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i TOTALLY agree about early access, i've seen other games worse than DD2 and they are available for the public, of course they lose some people since they will join and get bored / leave due lack of a huge ammounts of mechanics, content, etc etc etc


I also agree, this is paid open beta, not pre alpha - maybe they have their own terms in the meaning of these words (like they explained) , but still.

i don't complain about early access though, but idk i'm wondering myself if it was a smart move buying a game that made me lose hrs and hrs of my time for nothing, and will be f2p at the end, cause literally i got nothing that will make me feel proud of being pre - alpha - tester, not even a title

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@Omm quote:

Can't help myself when I see a wiki link, it always reminds me of this...

I tried to find a dumbed down version for fools like you that have defense council as a tag and think they are in some cool club. 

Let me make it easier for you and your club members: 

Software Release Cycle


ps - i love Michael Scott

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Like others stated, i also need a timeline - some sort of ETA for the different stages. In my opinion, DD2 is not pre-alpha anymore.


I don't mind a partial wipe, but if my heroes are reset to level 0 again, i'm gone for good.

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If you don't like it then leave and come back in open beta. I think i speak for ever single person who has been around since the first game when i say i would rather they occasionally reroll/wipe gear if it means the game will not turn into what dd1 turned into.

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I've been around since day one, so you don't speak for everyone. So have a lot of my DD friends, and they feel the same i do.

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