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tonyb

Frost Towers and the Upcoming Wipe

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Is Trendy going to fix frost towers prior to the upcoming wipe?  It seems kind of pointless doing a wipe and run through of the new nightmare when I can drop +1000% DP on a trap or LSA.

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I take it you're not a fan of reading patch notes.


This was from 5.18: 

  • Fixed an issue where the Frosty Power passive was providing an increase to Boost Auras at double the expected rate.

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@Alabama quote:

I take it you're not a fan of reading patch notes.


This was from 5.18: 

  • Fixed an issue where the Frosty Power passive was providing an increase to Boost Auras at double the expected rate.


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You can't really say a whole lot right now. 

We don't know how much harder tuned the new NM1-4 will be after the patch.

I fully expect to see a jump in difficulty, and hope so as well, where we'll probably want to use powerful builds, rather than it being nerfed into oblivion. 

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@Alabama quote:

I take it you're not a fan of reading patch notes.


This was from 5.18: 

  • Fixed an issue where the Frosty Power passive was providing an increase to Boost Auras at double the expected rate.


Yes. I don't understand why you needed to bolden the text? They made changes to address some of the issues. So what are people stacking to now that boost rate has effectively been halved? The boost aura + frost aura stack was how people were able to achieve such stupid, gimmicky numbers.

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@Tristaris quote:

You can't really say a whole lot right now. 

We don't know how much harder tuned the new NM1-4 will be after the patch.

I fully expect to see a jump in difficulty, and hope so as well, where we'll probably want to use powerful builds, rather than it being nerfed into oblivion. 

On this note, im still waiting for people to actually put up numbers since the 5.18 fix was put in. I haven't had as much time to play/read forums last week so have been reading everyone else's info/tests.

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@Alabama quote:


@Tristaris quote:

You can't really say a whole lot right now. 

We don't know how much harder tuned the new NM1-4 will be after the patch.

I fully expect to see a jump in difficulty, and hope so as well, where we'll probably want to use powerful builds, rather than it being nerfed into oblivion. 

On this note, im still waiting for people to actually put up numbers since the 5.18 fix was put in. I haven't had as much time to play/read forums last week so have been reading everyone else's info/tests.

Oh, you mean numbers in regards to how NM may be after the September patch?

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Tristaris No, numbers in regards to the frost nerf/correction yesterday in patch 5.18 so the boost to Boost Aura's is effectively halved in the time it is applied... making boost auras roughly 50% less effective with the stack spamming. At least, that's how I read that change to be - had hoped someone at this point would have had the numbers on it.


tl:dr how effective is frost aura + boost aura today from what it was 3 days ago in current content. What was the total dps loss.

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@Alabama quote:

Tristaris No, numbers in regards to the frost nerf/correction yesterday in patch 5.18 so the boost to Boost Aura's is effectively halved in the time it is applied... making boost auras roughly 50% less effective with the stack spamming. At least, that's how I read that change to be - had hoped someone at this point would have had the numbers on it.


tl:dr how effective is frost aura + boost aura today from what it was 3 days ago in current content. What was the total dps loss.

Ohhh! Right, my apologies. I'm not sure how it'll be. I just never bothered using boost in the first place, sadly. 

I hope the new monk build they release gives boost some love though, specifically to towers. Or something along those lines. I want to use towers a lot more than I currently do lol. 

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Fixed an issue where the Frosty Power passive was providing an increase to Boost Auras at double the expected rate.

I never used boost auras... and it is still broke.  I can hit well over 200k with traps and aura stacking. 

NM4 with 2 traps per lane and a bunch of frost towers.   Unless they buff Projectiles to be capable of 200k, or fix this I still believe it is broke.  No point in revisiting NM flow if it is still broken

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@tonyb quote:

Fixed an issue where the Frosty Power passive was providing an increase to Boost Auras at double the expected rate.

I never used boost auras... and it is still broke.  I can hit well over 200k with traps and aura stacking. 

NM4 with 2 traps per lane and a bunch of frost towers.   Unless they buff Projectiles to be capable of 200k, or fix this I still believe it is broke.  No point in revisiting NM flow if it is still broken

I think Frost towers should buff nearby towers (such as Projectile) in a similar manner to Monk Boost Aura when they are actively chilling a target thus they would gain a similar benefit as Traps/Mines. The alternate option would be to make Boost Aura have similar scaling as the Frost Tower but used for projectile/walls instead and have weaker overlap with traps/auras + Frost combo.

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They already have adjusted frost bite a lot. Speed doesn't stack, and there is an actual physical barrier of having too many stack. 

I don't think there's any need usually to call for nerfs to things until we see how the new nightmare is.

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@MaximumRico quote:

They already have adjusted frost bite a lot. Speed doesn't stack, and there is an actual physical barrier of having too many stack. 

I don't think there's any need usually to call for nerfs to things until we see how the new nightmare is.

With their range being so massive there is no real physical barrier to stacking. If they don't resolve the Frosty issue before the wipe it will, effectively, require another partial wipe at the least to further balance them, drastically. It also enforces brute force and devalues tactical builds. :/

I would like to see projectile towers not so inferior to traps/auras due to Frosty passives before the patch hits or we miss out on a big chunk of the reason for the partial wipe/reroll.

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There definitely is a physical limit. I don't know who wants to decide what "a lot" is but on most maps, we can use liferoot as an example, 5 is the magic stacking number. It can jump to 8, but with fliers it is really hard.

Small goblins have a tiny "aura" of the frostbite, so it doesn't go as far. Large orcs are huge, but they also are huge and take up area so not as many things pack.

If the game is AS IS right now with just a wipe, I could agree with you. From how they talk though, it is going to be super hard. If that is the case, we're talking about (hopefully) 15+ mill hp ogres in NM4, and it may be less of an issue. I also personally suspect they will tone down the stacking amount in the balance pass.

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@MaximumRico quote:

There definitely is a physical limit. I don't know who wants to decide what "a lot" is but on most maps, we can use liferoot as an example, 5 is the magic stacking number. It can jump to 8, but with fliers it is really hard.

Small goblins have a tiny "aura" of the frostbite, so it doesn't go as far. Large orcs are huge, but they also are huge and take up area so not as many things pack.

If the game is AS IS right now with just a wipe, I could agree with you. From how they talk though, it is going to be super hard. If that is the case, we're talking about (hopefully) 15+ mill hp ogres in NM4, and it may be less of an issue. I also personally suspect they will tone down the stacking amount in the balance pass.

I misinterpreted what you meant. You meant ability to hit number of mobs before it becomes redundant. Fair point. Granted, I don't think this is all that great of a limiting factor as the core thing it prevents is upgrading fewer towers that are multiplied. You are still seeing a roughly 10x boost or greater in DPS.

I agree with your point about 15+ million HP Ogres. If we have crazier scaling similar to DD1 it would be beneficial to have controlled stacking similar to Buff Beam + Spider Web + Monk Boost of DD1. I think the issue with ranged projectiles is the biggest concern, atm, and must be resolved before the wipe goes forth. Further balancing Frosty isn't as great an issue if projectiles can be brought up to par. I am certainly in agreement with concern about the current state of the game.

Quite curious why they feel NM4 will be so challenging. I'm hoping for the rules to change to some degree like in DD1 Insane->NM. NM, thus far, has been kinda disappointing as a raw stat wall in DD2.

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Theyve already said several times that the re-done NM modes are going to be pretty sick (specifically the last NM stage). There's just no real point calling for any thing though until those new modes are put out for us to test. The 4-5k hp ogres have been confirmed over and over that those were bugged and the new ones are going to be a substantial increase (so yes I think we'll be seeing the DD1 scaling finally incorporated).


I've said it a few times but we need to wait until they push out all these new builds before we can really justifiably call for any buffs/nerfs. When these new MM modes come online, who knows, they might have had all these numbers right from the get go and we might be asking them to bump the values up to where they were previously.


We just gots to be patient ;D

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I don't think there's any need usually to call for nerfs to things until we see how the new nightmare is.

I never called for a nerf.  I called for a Fix.  It doesn't matter how difficult they make NM.   The issue is not with how quickly frost kills monsters now.  It is that there is no point in using any other build.   For the same DU, my cannons can get maybe 60k single target.  My double trap build pulls over 300k AOE when it matters.

That isn't even in the same ball park.  I don't mind if they leave frost towers alone.   I like bigger numbers.    I want other viable builds.   If we are going to restart NM without either tuning frost attrition builds, or tuning projectile builds... we are stuck with the same frost/attrition builds everyone used to cheese into NM4.   That is why I asked, what is the point of doing another pass without address the frozen elephant in the room.

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@tonyb quote:

I don't think there's any need usually to call for nerfs to things until we see how the new nightmare is.

I never called for a nerf.  I called for a Fix.  

I never claimed you did. Other people in the thread did though. The comment was a generalized comment. You need to quit taking every post made in the thread as a direct quote to you because you started the conversation :) It was more of a comment towards Xen, but even then it was still a general comment

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He said he said aside I have to agree with tonyb.  Break in to 50 with my squire with quality blockades but even geared for it my harpoons, cannons don't cut it.  So right back to freeplay, its huntress or monk for their uber, app for frost towers seems really to be only options.  So 3 30+ alts, just pushed huntress 50 so I can be at least somewhat effective.  App for frost, Monk for AA (we'll look at his new build..).


tl;dr range towers dont work with frost, frost is a great buffer, range towers cant compare of at variety (too close = crushed)


Stuff like splody harpoon doesnt even make sense to me, would crumble

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@Alabama quote:


@tonyb quote:

I don't think there's any need usually to call for nerfs to things until we see how the new nightmare is.

I never called for a nerf.  I called for a Fix.  

I never claimed you did. Other people in the thread did though. The comment was a generalized comment. You need to quit taking every post made in the thread as a direct quote to you because you started the conversation :) It was more of a comment towards Xen, but even then it was still a general comment

I never called for a nerf, either, but a buff to projectile towers being brought up to par. O.o At current, there is no reason to deviate from Frost towers + Traps/Aura + Sky Guard. This is a problem. I also said I hope NM will be more interesting in NM4 since they seem so hyped about it when before it was the same crap just with higher stats which was disappointing compared to how NM in DD1 modified the rules of the game and was thus far more entertaining, like a new game all over when you hit NM. People can repeat about the bosses/Ogres till they drop but that was a moot point. The glitched bosses never determined who could run NM4 Incursion or not as the mobs were ffffffaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr more lethal then the silly bosses and if they think making some tankier slightly stronger Ogre will increase the difficulty then they will fail with NM4 all over again when a single Squire or Monk holds it off or you reserve some mana for wall repairs while focusing on the real threat, mobs. DD1 had mass Ogre spawn/pile up and brutally scaling Ogres. This is why they were a threat in addition to all the other factors.

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you know what they should do? just take away the frostbites ability to boost stuff in the first place! i have no idea why trendy can't do the simple yet effective thing of boost aura gets to boost stuff, and frostbite gets to freeze stuff

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