Jump to content

(The lack of) Nightmare XP made my Friends Quit DD2


Recommended Posts

"I have friends that are complaining about bugs in pre-alpha and about taking too long to be carried to lvl 50 without playing the game".

I wont miss them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 51
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Free Play is there after you complete Campaign for a reason. 
What reason? To play the game until you hit the max level.
End Game is level 50 content. What use do hero have from XP, besides the skin XP when he is lvl 50? It's your own problem that you want to level heroes in the content that is meant for level 50 GEAR FARMING, not leveling up. Admit that you just want things on a golden platter (because we have everything right now on a silver platter).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel the easy solution is such:

Nightmare/Endgame gives the same xp as the hardest level of normal maps.


This will allow:

  • Non "endgame" maps to still be the best way to level characters, they'll be easier and safer for leveling.
  • It will allow friends to bring lower level friends without crippling their progression
  • It will allow pets/costumes to continue to level

If anyone can identify a downside, please point it out to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Nyo quote:

I feel the easy solution is such:

Nightmare/Endgame gives the same xp as the hardest level of normal maps.


This will allow:

  • Non "endgame" maps to still be the best way to level characters, they'll be easier and safer for leveling.
  • It will allow friends to bring lower level friends without crippling their progression
  • It will allow pets/costumes to continue to level

If anyone can identify a downside, please point it out to me.

The downside being nobody, besides the new players, would play Free Play maps to level up their things.
I have already promoted this idea somewhere, but a different XP system for costumes should be installed so you could level up your accessories while doing end game content. However, i am not too bugged about this, i can level up my accessories in Free Play socializing with new players. It's kinda good twist to the End Game Incurions daily grind. 

I like the current model (End Game = almost no xp while the best XP being Free Play) and remember, we all are on the same boat. N number of players did not have any troubles leveling up their heroes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Seph quote:

The downside being nobody, besides the new players, would play Free Play maps to level up their things.

I fail to see how this is a downside.  What does it matter where people level up?

Is there any upside to separating the XP grind from the gear grind, other than making people spend more time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also...i don't wanna see 1st level useless alts on nm,trying to level up....NONONONONO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@topler quote:

I think there should be the same if not more xp in endgame in general then there is in freeplay, why? Because you need to have a lvl 50 to get there so your by no means are people getting boosted by having xp there, if anything the lack of any requirements on nm content allows anyone to get lvl 50 & hop into a nm4 game skipping endgame & nm1-3 thereby being boosted. 

Having xp would simply allow somebody to play content that is for their ipwr while lvling another character & not be forced to play lower lvl content where they are not rewarded & is just a tedious grind. 

You need to have ONE level 50 to get in there.  After that, you can join end game with any character you want. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for new players, those who wanna play with friends that already reached endgame, i can understand a little bit if they are not happy with the exp situation.

but, like someone said before, otherwise the freeplay maps would stay more and more untouched.  because of that i think the exp gain is ok as it is atm.

for players that already got 1 or even more lvl 50 chars, i cant understand their displeasure.

with 145% exp boost it takes about 4 hours from 0-40 ( done this yesterday with my appster at onslaught/hard  )  now, lemme say another 2 hours to 50 ( after the server down i will see how long exactly it takes )

subtract 35% for each hero u miss from that max possible 3 exp boosting ones and we are still in hours !  not days, not weeks not months^^

imho this is a fair good deal, to keep the whole content alive.

one of the few good changes from dd1/dde where u reached max lvl after 1-2 maps of city in the cliffs for example, and nobody gave a phak to the pre-end content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Icaruz quote:

subtract 35% for each hero u miss from that max possible 3 exp boosting ones and we are still in hours !  not days, not weeks not months^^

Exactly! The level 50 in 5-7 hours is SO MUCH MORE than a good deal. Usually, you don't just reach max level in a mere couple hours. Usually, in online games, it takes AT LEAST a week to do it. Here, players are almost given max level for free. And they are still unhappy. Human's greed is endless:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Seph quote:

Exactly! The level 50 in 5-7 hours is SO MUCH MORE than a good deal. Usually, you don't just reach max level in a mere couple hours. Usually, in online games, it takes AT LEAST a week to do it. Here, players are almost given max level for free. And they are still unhappy. Human's greed is endless:)

Usually games, online or not, give players something interesting to do while leveling.  In SW:TOR it used to take 40-50 hours to reach the level cap with a character.  These days it's been reduced to something like 10-15 hours.  I'm perfectly fine with either, since the game gives me an interesting story to follow like leveling.  It's like I get max level for free!

In DD2 on the other hand, I have to repeat the same bunch of maps over and over and over.  There isn't enough content to reach max level even on the first character!  Repeating maps which I'm overgeared for is not challenging, it's not exciting, it's just mind-numbingly boring.  There isn't even any point in trying out any new builds because I know the enemies will die anyway unless the build is spectacularly bad.

@Icaruz quote:

imho this is a fair good deal, to keep the whole content alive.

one of the few good changes from dd1/dde where u reached max lvl after 1-2 maps of city in the cliffs for example, and nobody gave a phak to the pre-end content.

Sorry, but no.  The XP grind does not keep the whole content alive.  It keeps the one or two maps alive which players deem to give the best XP.  Nobody gives a phak about anything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its not just nightmare.  You'll max out on gear from hard endgame WAY before 50.  Then you have to grind low level stuff over... and over... and over... with no chance at gear progression just to get xp to level.


I'll be honest, I did it and got my characters to 50 and it sucked.  I hated it but I wanted to play and bit the bullet with a RL buddy.  We played other games and hit G to start waves.  How is that a good sign that the exp is ok?


I would have been absolutely fine with grinding characters up with the chance of getting usable gear if it was an option.  This is how the game worked back in the +++ days, you'd play the highest content that you could, and you'd get exp and gear along the way.  What game with XP does NOT give more experience for killing harder stuff?  


Nobody is asking for free rides to 50, but feeling like you're getting gear while grinding levels is not a bad thing, feeling like your xp is going nowhere AND your gear level is going nowhere is disheartening, and playing level 10 content forever because it's way, way faster than endgame content is counter-intuitive.

@Alabama quote:


@NCO quote:


@Alabama quote:[...]

Yeah maybe you are right from a hardcore gamers point of view, and if your suggestions are implemented the remaining 7-9 players will probably really apreciate it.

You're absolutely right I am right. This isn't a complete game and if you were really a hardcore gamer (or your friends) you/they would realize that. Also to think only 7-9 people... you're just being outright silly with your attempts at sarcasm now.


I can't tell what to make of this post .. I mean you do realize how insanely simple it is to level currently, don't you?


@› Rabid Lemming quote:



How about 3.5M xp to evolve just 1 level of a costume. Would be nice that when you are doing NM and higher you can also earn some kind of reward in xp.

That's a completely different problem and what that I'm sure will get addressed down the line. The premise that you cant level friends because they cant get exp in NM is hilarious though.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@tdb quote:

Usually games, online or not, give players something interesting to do while leveling.  In SW:TOR it used to take 40-50 hours to reach the level cap with a character.  These days it's been reduced to something like 10-15 hours.  I'm perfectly fine with either, since the game gives me an interesting story to follow like leveling.  It's like I get max level for free!

In DD2 on the other hand, I have to repeat the same bunch of maps over and over and over.  There isn't enough content to reach max level even on the first character!  Repeating maps which I'm overgeared for is not challenging, it's not exciting, it's just mind-numbingly boring.  There isn't even any point in trying out any new builds because I know the enemies will die anyway unless the build is spectacularly bad.

But did you play SW:TOR when it was in it's early stages of development? No. You were playing the game when it was fully released, most likely. You are comparing a complete product with one that is in early development. How does that make sense? Please... Again, WE ALL are on the same boat here. EVERYONE has to grind that current level gap that has no content yet. WAIT for it and enjoy killing ogres in the meantime =) NOBODY is forcing you to repeat the same map. Do a variety of them for a change of pace. Do Onslaught for the Golden Egg, do Crossroads, do Ramparts - it's increadibly fun with 300k hp skellies, at least for a first couple of times. If you can't enjoy the current content, then nobody can help you - it's your own issue. Level up your pets. 



@tdb quote:

Sorry, but no.  The XP grind does not keep the whole content alive.  It keeps the one or two maps alive which players deem to give the best XP.  Nobody gives a phak about anything else.

Sorry, but no for you. If it does not keep YOU personally playing the content, it does not mean that people are playing it. Not everybody is grinding the same one liferoot for levels. Besides me, i do believe people are doing a variety of maps to level up. Crossroads, Liferoot, Onslaught, Incursions, Throne Room, etc. Yes, people are farming these maps. NOT ONLY Liferoot. 

[[773,users]] realise that there is a content gap at levels 40-50. Please have patience. New maps are incomming, and i do hope for that gap to be narrowed down to 2-5 or even disappear completely, for some seeking perfection before venturing into Nightmare 1. I am not a fan of that content gap myself, but i do enjoy the game in many ways right now and wait with excitement for whatever Trendy has in store for us :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is ok that Endgame/NM gives less XP because you dont need Xp there!

For new player it is important that you learn the game and the combos, towers, stats swapping charakters and how they interact with each other etc (keep in mind that on a later state from the game there are more stats passives heros and so on)

And maybe here are some solutions for the other mentioned problems:

Costume XP: seperate this XP from the normal XP(mentioned above in this thread)

Solo: lvl 2nd, 3nd Char and so on...: when you hit your first lvl 50 grand a buff or unluck something that gives you bonus XP when you lvl a second Char and when you hit the 2nd then maybe a bonus again(need to balance that it is not to much bonus)

Mentor: You want to bring your friends in the game and play with them and you explain them how the game works. Bring a Mentor system in that gives the new player bonus XP when he play with his Mentor(maybe with some restrictions and a bonus for the mentor(a title or something)). I know it is not easy to implement it but i think it can adress this problem maybe.

sry for my bad english i hope you understand what i mean xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's actually a good idea, Mentor system. That pupils get additional XP in the End Game maps. Mentor could get a better loot chance or something for Mentoring a player. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to hijack this thread but since we are on the topic of the XP grind and NM XP, it may pay to have a look at this thread In which I am positing solutions for both of those problems.

@Medivha quote:

Costume XP: seperate this XP from the normal XP(mentioned above in this thread)

And on the note of costume XP, I'm pretty sure that the devs have said there is a bug with the amount of XP required for leveling them, and that they are working on fixing it but it is proving to be a tricky fix and atm is not a major priority (I assume that means over the build-breaking bugs, and getting the builds for each class into the game)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Rose quote:

Also...i don't wanna see 1st level useless alts on nm,trying to level up....NONONONONO.

simple fix.

NM-Public-req: only lvl 50 in active Deck

Private: no req's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hokay. So. I know it's not just here, but there are several people who keep saying hot easy it should be to fix the issues at hand. A simple solution you may have presented, but with game development, it's never as easy as it sounds on paper.

Coding is very very hard.

Allow me to try and enlighten you with a theoretical scenario.

A big time CEO approaches you with the chance to score a dream job, where you can do what you love and get paid for it. All you have to do is write a speech on the operation of Quantum Computers (this is becoming a real thing, by the way) and how they will replace the modern PC. The speech has to last at least 50 minutes. And you have to write it in Icelandic.

Needless to say, becoming a Code Monkey requires you to study, a whole lot, otherwise it will melt your brain. Expect it to sometimes do so anyway, because it only takes missing 1 punctuation and your 7,000 character long line of code becomes useless.


Tangent Over.


End Game really does need more character EXP. Not the Nightmare modes past 1, but Onslaught especially needs to be more rewarding.

I think it would be fine for Nightmare 1 to give good exp. You're not going to be getting the "uber haxor" gear from there anyway, and it would be a great way to top off your remaining Hero Deck while also getting starting gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Seph quote:

But did you play SW:TOR when it was in it's early stages of development? No. You were playing the game when it was fully released, most likely. You are comparing a complete product with one that is in early development. How does that make sense? Please... Again, WE ALL are on the same boat here. EVERYONE has to grind that current level gap that has no content yet. WAIT for it and enjoy killing ogres in the meantime =) NOBODY is forcing you to repeat the same map. Do a variety of them for a change of pace. Do Onslaught for the Golden Egg, do Crossroads, do Ramparts - it's increadibly fun with 300k hp skellies, at least for a first couple of times. If you can't enjoy the current content, then nobody can help you - it's your own issue. Level up your pets. 

True, I did not play SW:TOR in beta.  I joined the game about three months after release.  I'm getting the impression though that people here want to keep things as they are now, even after DD2 is released.

300k HP skeletons?  The only enemies I've ever seen reach those numbers are ogres.  I'm fairly certain Ramparts on free play hard doesn't even have that.

I can just about reach round 5 or 6 on easy onslaught if the RNG doesn't screw me over with hordes of fireflies.  I've no chance of getting golden eggs, or wyvern tokens, or any other special rewards.

I've tried doing some different things.  So far Crossroads incursion is the most fun I've had, but even that gets boring after a while.  The bottom line is, grinding XP does not feel rewarding in itself.  As I said before, I'd rather do my household chores or work overtime than grind XP in a video game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@tdb quote:

.  As I said before, I'd rather do my household chores or work overtime than grind XP in a video game.

Cool thing about dd2 is you can do both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@In.Session quote:

Cool thing about dd2 is you can do both.

Not really.  My iPWR is not high enough yet that my wave 1 build would last the entire map, so I have to spend half a minute doing repairs and upgrades between waves.  And since each wave only lasts about two minutes, I can't really concentrate on my work or chores.  I guess I could go into a public game and afk leech XP, but that doesn't seem like a very polite thing to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@tdb quote:


@In.Session quote:

Cool thing about dd2 is you can do both.

Not really.  My iPWR is not high enough yet that my wave 1 build would last the entire map, so I have to spend half a minute doing repairs and upgrades between waves.  And since each wave only lasts about two minutes, I can't really concentrate on my work or chores.  I guess I could go into a public game and afk leech XP, but that doesn't seem like a very polite thing to do.

Try dropping down to easy mode on a map like throne room and finding something that will hit G for you, then u got about 15minutes before u have to come back which is enough time to prep dinner, fold washing, make food. u can always check TIB later ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fail to see how "This is fine - you can just afk it and browse the web or play another game while this one mindlessly grinds for you" is a good recommendation for how it currently works.

Are we really saying the right thing to do is use other games as a crutch to not fall asleep during the leveling process?  And we are ok with that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@stretchyalien quote:

I fail to see how "This is fine - you can just afk it and browse the web or play another game while this one mindlessly grinds for you" is a good recommendation for how it currently works.

Are we really saying the right thing to do is use other games as a crutch to not fall asleep during the leveling process?  And we are ok with that?

I don't /think/ that was ever said. I think the premise was that people shouldn't be exping in NM (for levels - not discounting pets/costumes b/c that's a separate issue entirely that has been addressed by Brad in a different thread).


A lot of people /do/ agree that leveling sucks in general and it's not a rewarding or has something that's just /missing/  I have several 50's but hated leveling each one (at the time Betsy was the only thing people exp'ed on and I initially hit the gear wall when they had just removed loot off a lot of mobs in end game due to heavy abuse by early 50's. At 50 though the game is fun and you can really toy with builds a bit more freely because of stats (and now passives).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to respectfully disagree.  It's been said a large number of times, not just in this thread, but in the threads about this all over the forum.  Take a look back at everyone's advice - it's to put the game in windowed mode and do something else.  Someone had even posted that they made a "g" macro so they didn't have to click back from their other game.


Perhaps there's other priorities right now, and I get that.  To stubbornly insist that XP and leveling isn't frustrating, boring, and unrewarding is baffling.  It needs to go on the list of things to fix - simply so it can be assigned a priority and make it into the queue.


I know you, in particular [[7649,users]] have been suggesting to remove leveling entirely.  That's a potential solution, although I suspect there's more complication involved in that than it seems.  Leveling does serve a purpose, the balance on it right now is hugely skewed.  I shouldn't get to the end of free play and be obligated to afk-grind for another 15 levels (on my FIRST character), then come back and do it all over again for each of the others.  Maybe that means there needs to be one more tier of difficulty in free play, or some other solution, but the bottom line is that when I open up the game and realize all I have available to me to do is grind levels, I'm distinctly unmotivated to play. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think adding another tier of difficulty to Free Play would be an amazing idea. I just got my first 50 earlier this morning and I plan on writing out a more in-depth opinion on the leveling experience, but the general feel of it is 35 to 50 is very unsatisfying. Why is that?

Be aware that this opinion is based off someone who has done 100% solo farming, never grouping once.

There is a gear drop off. By the time you hit 35 you have acquired the best gear you are going to get before hitting 50. At least that was my experience. I started doing Life Root - Hard early on and the gear came easy. The max level for that gear is no higher than 35. That leaves 15 levels of what feels like pure grind. There is little to no progression outside of unlocking your next tier of play.

The grind is tedious. I love Dungeon Defenders but even I couldn't facegrind it. I would have to do a level or two a day and go do something else. It's hard to play when you don't feel like you are really progressing. My only goal was to get a 50 so I could start progressing again, and that created a need to grind massive amounts of experience. That needs to be smoothed out. 

End Game has too many difficulties. I went straight from doing Free Play - Life Root - Hard to doing End Game - Life Root - Insane. You could lower down some of the difficulties out of End Game and put them into Free Play for a more smooth transition. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...