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Why was DD1 so addictive, while 2 is not?


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@Kyrn quote:


@GummiBear quote:


@Kyrn quote:

There's also the issue of a significant lack of content. People has already mentioned gear, which is part of that. there's also a lack of maps, lack of challenges (themed maps), lack of bossfights, etc. These sort of things aren't exactly stuff you fix in pre-alpha though.

And yet the amount of maps we have no, aint much different from the amount of maps that DD1 had at release, and they already stated they have more maps in the works

I know they've about as much maps, but it's fairly clear that the current set of maps is incomplete, in that they don't feel like the end of a story, but rather the end of a chapter. And of course they do. I just don't see them coming out until we're at least in an official alpha/beta stage.

On a separate note, another issue is simply the usability of the matchmaking system (aka not really usable at all). Right now it's a gamble on whether you enter a map with others, which is very dissuasive to people who like to play with PUG groups.

they said in the last or maybe it was the one before that that they have a couple maps pretty much finished (cant remember the number but they did say a pretty exact number), now they just need to get them implemented in a way so they fit in the world, so you can be sure by the time this game is released, it will have way more maps than DD1 had vanilla

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2,5k hours on DD1, played it more than any other game ever. I love tower defence and RPGs so DD1 brought in my two favourite things together. It's been a year since i played DD1, gave up after selling my stuff. Playing DD2 made me miss DD1, that shows something YET, i understand this is alpha so i expect a lot more fun in the near future. I'm pretty sure when this game is finished, DLCS comming out with new maps and heroes like DD1, i'll have more than 2,5k hours for sure. Just be patient, you guys are playing 24/7 and not enjoying other stuff that actually matters, take a break.

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1. Agree that I like the DD1 loot system better. I liked having matching sets for bonus and running around  looking for the next best piece.

   1B. They are already working on a similar but new system the the builds and passives.

2. Agree that all the challenges and boss fights in DD1 were fun to do. love me some raining goblins.

   2B. They said they have new maps but want to release them in a manner similar to Betsy, so maybe more bosses.

3. Matchmaking, oh you tricky little devil. I hated login in to DD1 and all you see in the whole matchmaking  server that you guys want so bad is; tavern defense nightmare up and rep; Kings game nightmare up and rep.  

   3B. I like the new matchmaking system that is developing. I will agree with @Kryn that it sucks to get into a  group game but be by yourself, but I don't want to go back to the DD1 style.

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@ashram48 quote:

Even if you only played stock maps, that still means you enjoyed a higher difficulty, more classes and (I don't know if you include these into stock maps because they weren't there during classic times but still went under the "classics" [or whatever it was called] tab in the game ) the very awesome Chess map among many others.

Who said i used the new classes, and who said i played on nightmare? My main class i played was squire and i screwed around most of the time in insane lab survival. But either way, their map design took a pretty big step back in terms of how fun the maps are to actually play for this game imo. The fact this game is only early access is irrelevant since the game has maps in it, don't need 20+ maps to have great maps that are fun to play alot. 

This game is still a fun but i don't know how much longer i can continue playing the maps in this game. New ways to build in maps is nice and all but that can only go so far. Would even be cool to add a new playlist that is more of a "for fun" mode rather than for progression that brings back some old fan favorites from the first game.

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The issue I'm having is that the campaign is lackluster and only got me up to level 20ish... and leveling post-campaign feels dreadful.  I feel like it might be an issue of how much gear drops vs. how much is not total crap or has a terrible mix of stats, but I just don't feel rewarded for playing when after 2-3 full runs of a map that I'm under-geared for I only have 2 pieces upgraded between 3 builders.

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@Omm quote:


@Echoplex quote:

Hate to state the obvious but it looks like it needs to be stated once more; The game is currently in a Pre-Alpha build. 

Yeah, good thing we have people here to constantly state the obvious, it's not annoying at all. 

These conversations are great for the devs reading the forums and we need to continue to have them. We all want DD2 to be as great as DD1 and even greater. Which a minority already feels it's greater I'm sure, but it's far from it. It's improving for some and taking steps back for others.  When they make the majority happy, they will have another amazing hit. When they don't, they will have another DDE.  Keeping in mind DD1 still has a lot of active payers, that's pretty impressive.

Are we only supposed to talk about bugs? No! I can understand why people compare it to DD1, I mean, it's called DD2... but we also need to have a fresh prospective and accept some change.

Like me, I am adjusting to no tower speed pretty well. But I feel I still need some kind of map specific rewards to keep me glued to the game. Either way, I will keep playing till it's finally released in it's full entirety.

I have enjoyed the new passives a lot, but I feel the critical stats are a bust at the moment, I overlook them and haven't needed them so far.

"Come back at retail release to see it in all its glory".

Don't do this, you may come back to a game you hate. Stay and provide feedback so the game can change and grow to suit us all.


Being said, I'd love Onslaught to have bosses, BUT don't drop loot like isn't that what rewards after each round is for? to survive those rounds but get close to only Golden Egg at 15. Like the bosses on Wave 3 of each round give more loot then the Round ending. Wish this is changed soon :D

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@-venOm- quote:

how i HATE that excuse. It's just a label to hide under if trendy makes mistakes, and as far as i see, every bad patch/hotfix is followed by that 'argument'. I bough the game, i bought collectors edition, i bought 3 copies for friends. i have high hopes for this game, but i start to think that i wasted lots of money. what trendy needs now are veteran players for testing the game on separate small server and more active community managers. when playerbase is not big, the best way to stay alive is too keep community happy. trendy partially did it about 2 week ago when people started to rage about changes. just please, make this game as fun. not let it become like ***ty sequal of great movie.


TLDR: less bad excuses, more fun.

You think ONLY ONE campaign boss and 12 maps is fit for release or even beta? 
If you think the amount of current content is enough for release... I have nothing to say. I am disappointed and sad. 

Also, they do have a separate server for testing things and people that they do it with. They do test the game before every hotfix and patch that they release. 

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Maps are too simplistic

Only a handful of towers/abilities are fun

Gear progression is too smooth, you never get excited by any drops, you always know the range of what you can expect


A lot of other elements I see improvement on, but these areas worry me.

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I'm kinda enjoying DD2. I didn't at the start way back when, and I still don't know, but I have started to at least play it a fair bit so I am enjoying it to some extent.

I have no doubt whatsoever though that for me also, DD1 was the more enjoyable, addictive game. Whether it's sequel syndrome or something else, I'm not sure. But certainly I find some of the new elements in the game far less appealing:

[1] Fewer towers to choose from. They dropped the real number down to 4.

[2] Fewer real choices between those towers. The addition of physical/magic resistance, while an interesting change, does essentially halve your tower choices from an already smaller pool.

[3] We've lost quirky towers. DD1's lightning tower, DST, bowling ball, and enrage aura for example, offered unique mechanics. Now we have walls (and with the Spiked passives, that's essentially one wall. Dummy and magic wall are very subpar, that's two more towers off the list of reduced towers...), single target damage, and AoE.

Re points 2 and 3... hopefully with further balancing, and the new passives, things might start to get a bit better. If they fixed the other Ubers, too.

[4] Less creative freedom with placement. I've mentioned this point before, but in their eagerness to limit extreme range (fair enough), a by product is that there is very little creative avenue towards building specific maps with creative placement, etc. Games are essentially, build XYZ at each lane, every lane, based on resistances and your preference for traps/towers. The maps change, the graphics change, but virtually all of them boil down into... here are 3/4/5 lanes, now build.

I used to remember thinking up different strategies for different maps in DD1, finding out how best to optimise towers for a given map. Now, it's just all... 3/4/5 lanes, go.

Remember DDplanner? I honestly can't see the value of that for DD2, simply because that level of creativity/optimisation in building, is no longer there. (Mind you, a quick Google suggests someone on here was planning on starting one up.)

[5] Extended range of mobs. Javelin throwers and drakin just make physical towers generally more of a chore than the old game. You can't build towers comfortably far enough away from walls to avoid splash damage from kobolds, ogre stomps. Drakin seem to have a pierce/3 shot mechanic anyway. I spend far more time repairing stuff than I did in DD1, until the shift to auras/traps.

There just feels like there's been a shift from strategic TD towards an action game, which for my play preference, is a step backwards.

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@Decadent quote:

There just feels like there's been a shift from strategic TD towards an action game, which for my play preference, is a step backwards.

This, I agree so much. This game will live or die based on how important tower placement is. The game feels like a grind now. 

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@Rylorn quote:
@Decadent quote:

There just feels like there's been a shift from strategic TD towards an action game, which for my play preference, is a step backwards.

This, I agree so much. This game will live or die based on how important tower placement is. The game feels like a grind now. 

Perhaps, but honestly when playing solo I don't bother with a DPS hero at all. I do sometimes play as a tank squire but only because he's also my wall squire, and most of the time I'd rather be just watching my towers, checking how each part of my defense is faring, and moving parts here and there for more optimization or removal of weaknesses.

A larger concern would be the lack of incentive to play most of the maps, since gear is rather linear. Back in DD1 different maps had special rewards, along with map achievements. Over here, there's only 4 map specific rewards: onslaught golden eggs and Betsy weapon line. Of cause, having map-specific rewards has it's own flaws like no one playing maps which no one wants the rewards for, but there're ways to handle that issue, along with other solutions to encourage playing other maps (The daily has potential, but unfortunately is both re-rollable and only applies once per day).

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@Rylorn quote:


@Decadent quote:

There just feels like there's been a shift from strategic TD towards an action game, which for my play preference, is a step backwards.

This, I agree so much. This game will live or die based on how important tower placement is. The game feels like a grind now. 

I Also agree with both these statements. I want a Tower Defense game with a twist, not an Action RPG with some towers.

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@Kyrn quote:


Perhaps, but honestly when playing solo I don't bother with a DPS hero at all. I do sometimes play as a tank squire but only because he's also my wall squire, and most of the time I'd rather be just watching my towers, checking how each part of my defense is faring, and moving parts here and there for more optimization or removal of weaknesses.


This right here is what made me love DD1. Coming up with a plan to save the crystal and then running around hoping it worked and saving your plan with some player DPS and repairs.

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@Finaldeath quote:


@ashram48 quote:

Even if you only played stock maps, that still means you enjoyed a higher difficulty, more classes and (I don't know if you include these into stock maps because they weren't there during classic times but still went under the "classics" [or whatever it was called] tab in the game ) the very awesome Chess map among many others.

Who said i used the new classes, and who said i played on nightmare? My main class i played was squire and i screwed around most of the time in insane lab survival. But either way, their map design took a pretty big step back in terms of how fun the maps are to actually play for this game imo. The fact this game is only early access is irrelevant since the game has maps in it, don't need 20+ maps to have great maps that are fun to play alot. 

This game is still a fun but i don't know how much longer i can continue playing the maps in this game. New ways to build in maps is nice and all but that can only go so far. Would even be cool to add a new playlist that is more of a "for fun" mode rather than for progression that brings back some old fan favorites from the first game.

There you go buddy, Lab wasn't in the classic game, it always comes down to exactly this whenever someone says I had fun with map xyz for 100's of hours it wasnt in the classic game.

Sure I enjoyed the classic Bosses, sure I enjoyed the challenges. But that really didn't make you play the game more than 100 hours before all the dlcs and everything was introduced.

And even tho I think it's a little unfair to compare an unifnished DD2 with classic DD1, if we do any comparison than to the classic release DD1 and not with any stuff that came a whole lot later (the Lab part especially was  mucho later)

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@Zuqual quote:

1) Gear is boring.  There are far fewer stats on pieces than there was in DD1.  Stat values are fixed to item level instead of rolling in a range.  This means, while it may still feel rare, it is relatively simple to find the perfect piece of gear, and replacing it is usually as simple as moving to the next ipwr map.  In DD1, gear was far more granular and so putting together a powerful set was a more drawn out treasure hunt.

2) Towers are boring.  Bouncing bowling balls where fun, lightning jumping from creature to creature was fun, huge auras where fun, a tower shooting through walls was fun, gattling gun harpoons where fun.  DD2 towers are less interesting and visually less appealing.  The only really fun towers that come to mind in DD2 are the frostfire tower and the blaze balloon.

3) The maps are boring.  Think of the large maps in DD1.  Now think of the largest map you played in the last week of DD2.

this

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It's clear some of you didn't play when high fives had super inflated stats due to broken amount of upgrades. Or that you could negate 100% of all damage, Sounds oddly familiar to some problems on this very forum... But I guess rose colored glasses and all.

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@mokn quote:

The creator and lead designer of the original was fired. He was very hardcore, too hardcore for the rest of the team. The people left are very casual gamers, watch them playing on the dev stream.



@Seph quote:

You think ONLY ONE campaign boss and 12 maps is fit for release or even beta? 
If you think the amount of current content is enough for release... I have nothing to say. I am disappointed and sad. 

Also, they do have a separate server for testing things and people that they do it with. They do test the game before every hotfix and patch that they release. 


1. what? DD1 was same in that matter, it got more maps after inicial release. 

2. they have testing team. and we get hotfixes like this. i dont think they are doing their job.

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Basically I like the ideas behind DD2. It has great potential and is already better than a whole bunch of released games.

Nevertheless... matchmaking. No matter how great a game is: If you don't get a satisfying experience in matchmaking, then you either have to be a solo player or quit the game. 

DD1 has that kind of 'matchmaking' I really want to have in this kind of games: the choice to join a server/game/lobby with a custom name etc. etc. (suggested a hundred times)... the game can be the most awesome ever... as long as non-solo-players won't have a pleasant experience they will live rather soon without having spent a dime.

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I think part of it is that they streamlined the characters and their progression.  In the other games you had a choice as to whether or not you wanted your passive points going towards hero or tower.  Now it's "you gained a level and these are what increased."  The people who liked to make multiple characters now just need different sets of gear and passives.  You need to swap from a dps to a builder?  Just throw on the builder gear and passives then swap back to dps when you're done. 


Add on top of that the fact that there are only the 4 base classes like vanilla DD1 had before they added the alternative versions of each class, the robot, the jester, the barbarian, the ritualist, I dunno if I forgot another one but none the less that's 4 completely unique and 4 alternative versions with different active abilities that are available in dd1. 


Plus they have yet to put in real challenges.  They have those 'equip all mythical' or 'level 4 different characters' but those aren't the same as warping core, kobold assault, etc....like they had at launch of DD1.  The pets also seem lackluster in comparison.  The pets don't seem half as fun as pets like the fairy, genie, companion cube, etc...Now they start off with pathetic passive traits and underwhelming abilities when you 'level them up.'


So for those who miss  true challenges, fun pets, a multitude of class variety, better pets, and a more flushed out plot, I can see all of those being addressed by launch.  However I don't think they will change the streamlined character leveling so the incentive to make multiple types of the same class which I know a lot of people in DD1 liked to do, won't be there.

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I just want my auras to cover the whole map again and attack so fast it crashes the server. Im spoiled like that.  Emoji_Huntress.png

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@ashram48 quote:


@Finaldeath quote:


@ashram48 quote:

There you go buddy, Lab wasn't in the classic game, it always comes down to exactly this whenever someone says I had fun with map xyz for 100's of hours it wasnt in the classic game.

Sure I enjoyed the classic Bosses, sure I enjoyed the challenges. But that really didn't make you play the game more than 100 hours before all the dlcs and everything was introduced.

And even tho I think it's a little unfair to compare an unifnished DD2 with classic DD1, if we do any comparison than to the classic release DD1 and not with any stuff that came a whole lot later (the Lab part especially was  mucho later)

I played several thousand hours on ps3 besides pc version, it was pretty much always classic even after all the dlc came out (which was only 4 maps on console). They were so broke they weren't worth playing. Well, besides raggo...

We still played summit and glitter all the time plus some of the challenges. It took way longer to level up too.

But, that's a really good point to consider. A lot of people would have abandoned it before any dlc came out.

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I am actually really enjoying DD2. In pre-alpha it feels alot like DD1 did upon release and the "build" + UBER spheres really make thngs interesting! 

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@-venOm- quote:


@mokn quote:

The creator and lead designer of the original was fired. He was very hardcore, too hardcore for the rest of the team. The people left are very casual gamers, watch them playing on the dev stream.



@Seph quote:

You think ONLY ONE campaign boss and 12 maps is fit for release or even beta? 
If you think the amount of current content is enough for release... I have nothing to say. I am disappointed and sad. 

Also, they do have a separate server for testing things and people that they do it with. They do test the game before every hotfix and patch that they release. 


1. what? DD1 was same in that matter, it got more maps after inicial release. 

2. they have testing team. and we get hotfixes like this. i dont think they are doing their job.

Most of the hotfixes is a misnomer, seeing that  they USUALLY add content instead of fixing them (at least post wipe, haven't played much at all before that)

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