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MaximumRico

New Mage Passives - Utterly broken currently (in a ridiculous way)

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Just a bit of an update. It seems that the Frost Power on armor has built in diminishing returms. I tested on a boost aura and removed a few frost power items that didn't have DP. It seems 1 frost tower only actually has a 20% gain from your items. So with 2677 DP and 134% frosty power, 1 frostbite was providing  717 DP. I removed some to have 86% and 1 frostbite provided 460.

Each of these was 20% of the actual frost power in gains. If I could find more legendary pieces ( and pieces with DP, gg double resist rolls) I could see if it is possible to get 100% but I'm not sure.

The biggest single boost from the new passives is the staff so stacking them to cap defense speed provides the largest boost. After that the returns are less due to the reduced DP provided. It is still quite overpowered in it's current state, though.

Oh and using a boost doubles the DP gained. I suppose that was expected, but still.


EDIT: Actually it seems that the DP provided by a frost scales slightly with the tower level (I think, it's really hard to test). T1 boost was receiving 20% DP, T5 boost was receiving approx. 31%

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@Kyrn quote:

There is technically the other issue of larger traps/auras not synergising all that well with frostbite because you have to place them close to your barriers to get their benefit for mobs on said barriers (hence reducing their effective range). If anything, they synergise best with the other 3 traps and lightning aura because of that. (For that note, lightning aura+geyser is fun again, and synergises perfectly)

This is false. LA has a tiny benefit because it already is so close to ATK spd cap. Blaze balloons are jesus incarnate with this build, and I have them at max range of the frostbite almost. NM4 horde utterly melt to a single balloon. It isn't uncommon for them to do 10-15 MILLION damage in one wave of horde.

Initially I'd put an explosive trap or 2 at barricades,  and closer LSA, but no more. A single LSA that barely touches the barricade after upgrades is the closest and no traps.

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@Kyrn quote:

Wouldn't frostbite not work well for blaze balloon though, since it would increase the balloon regen rate, not the tick rate... or can balloons double-stack their dots?

More like... I don't know, penta stack? I suspect there's no limit but things die after a couple balloon pops usually.

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Barricades aren't needed unless you get a cc resist lane.


for whatever reason, those lanes always seem to keep trucking with survivors.

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Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

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@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

I love that the stacking is intended (and maybe a little overpowered, but I think some diminishing returns wouldn't hurt... maybe 25% less effectiveness on the buff for each tower after the first?) It'd keep it super powerful, but not to where it is now.

I'm looking forward to seeing what is in store for huntress and monk, though!

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Really glad you guys implemented it as is and went ahead and worked this week on the monk and huntress builds. I think there are a large majority of us who would rather just get all the builds out and worry about balance passes after they are all implemented.


The stacking effect is only so bad at end game because of the scaling with gear. At lower gear levels it's not nearly open to the amount of abuse.

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@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

Cool! I always really liked frostbite especially with the large sphere, now it just gives more incentive to have them around. I like the stacking, and think it might even be OK if frosty power stacked, but frost fire stacking seems to put it over the top with capping defense speeds. 

Or, you could leave it like this and add NM6-10 :D

Having maxxed frostbites in onslaught is fun, I keep thinking about ghostbusters when I see beams all over.


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i think its to broken 

if you get nice gear you can get 2000 DP on mage (don't know exactly max DP ) 

witch mean you can get on every set of gear with this passive (witch is broken) (i got epic one with 20% on lvl 27) -> whole build more than 100% of your DP + other passive for speed can probably be more then 50% MOST OP IS CAN BE STACKED AND THIS TURRET IS MEANT TO SLOW MONSTERS NOT BUFF ALL BETTER THEN MONK BOOST.

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@primoz1234 quote:

i think its to broken 

if you get nice gear you can get 2000 DP on mage (don't know exactly max DP ) 

witch mean you can get on every set of gear with this passive (witch is broken) (i got epic one with 20% on lvl 27) -> whole build more than 100% of your DP + other passive for speed can probably be more then 50% MOST OP IS CAN BE STACKED AND THIS TURRET IS MEANT TO SLOW MONSTERS NOT BUFF ALL BETTER THEN MONK BOOST.

It isn't broken. At least not like you think. Did you read any replies? Even with 124% frosty power from armor, defenses do not receive that much DP. Not even half of it. Approximately 31% to a T5 tower.

And if anything it makes monk boost EVEN BETTER because it adds DP to them which then buffs more around them.

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but still its main purpose it to slow not to buff. Now almost every build is focusing on getting enemies slowed (because of lacking DS ) , and still 31% is a lot for turret meant to slow.

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I don't really see the issue since almost no one even used the frostbites before, let alone any app towers. In their current state they are a bit much, true, but when adjusted I think they will be fine.

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@MaximumRico quote:

I don't really see the issue since almost no one even used the frostbites before, let alone any app towers. In their current state they are a bit much, true, but when adjusted I think they will be fine.

Some of us did use frostbite towers before the buff because we knew they had a use :( 


Getting people to see or try it though just wasn't worth the hassle after a certain point. 

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@Alabama quote:

You did(im 99.9999% sure unless there is another active poster with a K name) and it was in response to me discussing ranking up frostbite towers before the new passives were added. The post is buried somewhere and I'm not even sure which one it was in any more. It was a post or two from last week.

Also, the towers stack so you can spend the DU to cover both sides of a lane if you feel the AoE is too small but ime I've never had an issue there...

I did talk about ranking up and how they had limited benefit, but what does that have to do with this at all? I'm not talking about the range of frostbite, but the radius of AoE itself.

And the issue is not about covering both sides, but of covering the spot beyond the barriers. LSA and Blaze Balloon are usually placed so that the edge just barely touches the barrier, and enemies who are at the barrier wouldn't be close enough to said aura focal points for the frost to buff them in that case; they now have to be placed closer to the barrier, causing a "wasted" overlap on the barrier, and hence reducing the effective range. Again, it's not about the range of the slow (the AoE's large enough for that, since the slow auras generally cause enemies to bunch up anyway), but of the buffing radius.


@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

Other suggestion: other than reducing the speed buff (which is really the core issue here, not the power bonus), possibly increase the speed cap for slow defenses or reduce it for faster defenses so that they're not disproportionately buffed. In short, the buff should be reasonably lower than that of hearthy harpoons, especially because it's using an offensive stat, and it buffs a group of towers at once (all of which in future may also be getting their own speed buffs).

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@Tristaris quote:


@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

I love that the stacking is intended (and maybe a little overpowered, but I think some diminishing returns wouldn't hurt... maybe 25% less effectiveness on the buff for each tower after the first?) It'd keep it super powerful, but not to where it is now.

I'm looking forward to seeing what is in store for huntress and monk, though!

I'm pumped to see what they'll do for Monk :D

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Aha Frost-Tower gives better buff then Monk Boost-Aura, I don't see the logic behind to buff one decent tower (slow was already decent) to a OP-MUST-HAVE-SLOW+BUFF-STACKING-Tower where the Monk Boost-Aura is pretty useless and now even more unused.

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@Carrylex quote:

Aha Frost-Tower gives better buff then Monk Boost-Aura, I don't see the logic behind to buff one decent tower (slow was already decent) to a OP-MUST-HAVE-SLOW+BUFF-STACKING-Tower where the Monk Boost-Aura is pretty useless and now even more unused.

I mostly used monk boost just for the extra HP to blockades anyway. :P

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@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

Yeh you trivialized "end game"(implemented wrong again) and made it afkable again, boring.

No matter what you do, you'll never have complete balance in the game, new towers, new classes should be coming into the game constantly after release, accept you can never have 100% balance and design game modes around it.

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@MaximumRico quote:


@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

Cool! I always really liked frostbite especially with the large sphere, now it just gives more incentive to have them around. I like the stacking, and think it might even be OK if frosty power stacked, but frost fire stacking seems to put it over the top with capping defense speeds. 

Or, you could leave it like this and add NM6-10 :D

Having maxxed frostbites in onslaught is fun, I keep thinking about ghostbusters when I see beams all over.

Makes me think of phasers!! less the orange :)

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@Hover Tower 2000 quote:


@MaximumRico quote:


@TrendyBrad quote:

Everyone DID say they wanted bigger numbers, right? ;)

I kid! We actually talked about what you're observing before the patch went up, and are talking about this even more now. We really like how fun it can feel to stack the buffs, but we also think the current behavior is just maaaaybe a little tiny bit out of control at the end-game. ;) 

We talked about removing it before the pathc, but instead our thought was to put the buff out into the wild while we iterate internally on changes and also get in the first builds for Huntress and Monk. We were hopeful the community's input would help lead us to coming up with the best solution. 

Expect there will be some change, but we're really trying to keep the "cool" factor of the stacking in (pun intended?).

Cool! I always really liked frostbite especially with the large sphere, now it just gives more incentive to have them around. I like the stacking, and think it might even be OK if frosty power stacked, but frost fire stacking seems to put it over the top with capping defense speeds. 

Or, you could leave it like this and add NM6-10 :D

Having maxxed frostbites in onslaught is fun, I keep thinking about ghostbusters when I see beams all over.

Makes me think of phasers!! less the orange :)

Considering I'm using NM3 gear to semi-afk NM4 incursion (granted it's liferoot, but then again could probably afk the other maps better if I had ele chaos mines), they'll need to bump the difficulty by quite a bit.

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I can not disagree more with this statement for both my app and my squire.  I have tried equipping ilvl 700+ items to replace level 27 legends with high % rolls, and it is a loss in both boost dps for app, and wall hp for squire.

The passives are blowing regular stats out of the water.

@Alabama quote:


@tdb quote:


@Alabama quote:

Yea, that sounds about how it should work. though there are a lot of things wonky currently in the patch. Dropping DP/dmg/attack/etc to add passives to increase overall DPS is a standard mechanic in many games. 

Sacrificing some stats for special attributes?  Sure.  In this case it seems like stats don't matter at all though - you can entirely replace them with the passive.  That doesn't sound right.

(Note: Haven't tried it myself, so I'm going by numbers others have posted on the forums.)

You go on out there and go with just passives and lackluster stats and tell me how you do ;) 


The passives are only stupidly over powering once you're able to snowball your stats.


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@Corebot quote:

I can not disagree more with this statement for both my app and my squire.  I have tried equipping ilvl 700+ items to replace level 27 legends with high % rolls, and it is a loss in both boost dps for app, and wall hp for squire.

The passives are blowing regular stats out of the water.

@Alabama quote:


@tdb quote:


@Alabama quote:

Yea, that sounds about how it should work. though there are a lot of things wonky currently in the patch. Dropping DP/dmg/attack/etc to add passives to increase overall DPS is a standard mechanic in many games. 

Sacrificing some stats for special attributes?  Sure.  In this case it seems like stats don't matter at all though - you can entirely replace them with the passive.  That doesn't sound right.

(Note: Haven't tried it myself, so I'm going by numbers others have posted on the forums.)

You go on out there and go with just passives and lackluster stats and tell me how you do ;) 


The passives are only stupidly over powering once you're able to snowball your stats.

This... Hard...


My squire has 200k HP walls with all lvl 27-29 legendarys on.  His ilvl is around 190 or something, and he is my waller for NM4.

Have an App that is built the same way.  He is in all lvl 27-29 legendarys and he does my freeze towers.  I don't have a new legendary staff with the speed ability, but I just place freezes and watch them add 25% dps/damage to my traps from his passives.

All passives for both are on absolutely garbage gear, just with high passive %'s.  That's not the way I would like to gear and dominate, but it's the path presently presented and with marks easy to hit.


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Exactly you are using at the least 2 characters with passives to boost 1 geared huntress. This is what I have already said. Several times. The passives have no diminishing returns. They have what seems like unlimited stacking. Traps are also scaled stupidly high right now which is making the frost passives even stronger.

This is not an issue at lower level play. It's magnified at higher gear levels because of how well the passives scale. This is not new news.

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