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topler

Liferoot Forest too easy?

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So I find liferoot forest way too easy, especially when you consider it is the 2nd highest item pwr map in any given difficulty. I believe this is horrible because it causes players to gravitate towards this map due to the high rewards & low difficulty. The high du mixed with the low amount of lanes (3) & the simple map layout make this map a joke imo. 

To fix this I would suggest either having quab not as a sub core but also a main or lowing the amount of du so the reward is appropriate to the challange.

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@topler quote:

So I find liferoot forest way too easy, especially when you consider it is the 2nd highest item pwr map in any given difficulty. I believe this is horrible because it causes players to gravitate towards this map due to the high rewards & low difficulty. The high du mixed with the low amount of lanes (3) & the simple map layout make this map a joke imo. 

To fix this I would suggest either having quab not as a sub core but also a main or lowing the amount of du so the reward is appropriate to the challange.

here's a challenge. make everything main core in nightmare! now that will be a good challenge! no sub-cores. only hard-core (get it? hard-core, like hardcore, that was a pun, a puntastic pun. okay sorry).

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There are 4 lanes. If you don't protect secondary, you are not a worthy defender.

@topler quote:

So I find liferoot forest way too easy, especially when you consider it is the 2nd highest item pwr map in any given difficulty. I believe this is horrible because it causes players to gravitate towards this map due to the high rewards & low difficulty. The high du mixed with the low amount of lanes (3) & the simple map layout make this map a joke imo. 

To fix this I would suggest either having quab not as a sub core but also a main or lowing the amount of du so the reward is appropriate to the challange.


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While I agree liferoot 'seems' easy, i think this is only because other maps aren't balanced as well yet. Liferoot can still be problematic if you decide to save quab or even let himf all (wrong mix and both lanes chuting in to 1 can cause a pretty fast wreck.


I believe they stated in the last dev stream that they likely need to go through and raise/lower DU on various maps.

FWIW throne room is my favorite for gear farming.

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I wouldn't say it's necessarily "easy." It's just a very well designed map. The other maps need more DU or some tweaking so it's not a headache to build on some of them. (ie: Forgotten ruins has a stupid low amount of DU makes me hate that map so much.)

I wouldn't say they need to lower the DU on liferoot, but instead fix other maps. At least that's my thoughts.

I'm hoping for new maps in general in the future, though, because their art team is amazing and I've always enjoyed the aethetics of their maps.

I'd say though, Liferoot is probably my favorite map overall due to how the lanes funnel into one, allows for good builds, lots of variety if you so choose to, etc.



I won't disagree with you on the fact that people will gravitate towards maps that are easier to build, though, and will always be the case I feel. 

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The DU on liferoot is fine if you build for 4 lanes. However it is too easy to consolidate two lanes into one and get more bang for your defense buck. Most maps with subcores open up entirely new lanes that we must build specifically to counter. At best you can hope to combine a new lane into an existing lane but its not always that nice. In liferoot one of the main lanes combines with another main lane when the subcore falls and the new lane is just some air that flies directly down the now consolidated main lane. On top of this the consolidated lane actually pours into a rather tight bottleneck that is very easy for a squire to block off. This makes the map actually easier when we let the subcore fall which I think is counter to the intended subcore design.

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I wouldn't say it is easy at all, especially with a lot lower ipwr. At higher difficulties you NEED to have people constantly babysitting the lane, that itself is enough. If it were easy, you wouldn't have to babysit a wall constantly.

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The thing with making liferoot 'easy' as far as exp goes is giving up quab is a significant chunk of exp. I want to say it's a 30k base difference and if you're using exp modifiers thats easily 130%+ and more that you are losing out on.

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@MaximumRico quote:

I wouldn't say it is easy at all, especially with a lot lower ipwr. At higher difficulties you NEED to have people constantly babysitting the lane, that itself is enough. If it were easy, you wouldn't have to babysit a wall constantly.

This would apply to all maps and with that in mind liferoot is again as easy as it comes having the minimum amount of lanes a map can have at three.


@Alabama quote:

The thing with making liferoot 'easy' as far as exp goes is giving up quab is a significant chunk of exp. I want to say it's a 30k base difference and if you're using exp modifiers thats easily 130%+ and more that you are losing out on.

This is something I agree on & can understand. However in endgame xp shouldn't be a issue by then but gear more so & then the three lane liferoot shows its ugly side by handing out some of the best gear while being one of the easier maps.


@Underlander quote:

There are 4 lanes. If you don't protect secondary, you are not a worthy defender.

I'm only putting quab out of his misery, after all we broke his claw & shoved a cannon on his back. Should at least let him rest in peace :)

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@topler quote:




@Alabama quote:

The thing with making liferoot 'easy' as far as exp goes is giving up quab is a significant chunk of exp. I want to say it's a 30k base difference and if you're using exp modifiers thats easily 130%+ and more that you are losing out on.

This is something I agree on & can understand. However in endgame xp shouldn't be a issue by then but gear more so & then the three lane liferoot shows its ugly side by handing out some of the best gear while being one of the easier maps.



End game in general is broken on several levels. It's not just liferoot that pays out easy gear for low effort. They'll be fixing it over time though.

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They'll fix it? Yup they did.

The bosses on liferoot have 20k HP and drop 850 item power gear, waves 3-5 didn't give any loot.

They fixed it this patch, the low HP bosses now give loot on all waves.

Great fix....

The game once again will have no true end game they should of done progressionary survival mode.

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@mokn quote:

They'll fix it? Yup they did.

The bosses on liferoot have 20k HP and drop 850 item power gear, waves 3-5 didn't give any loot.

They fixed it this patch, the low HP bosses now give loot on all waves.

Great fix....

The game once again will have no true end game they should of done progressionary survival mode.

Did you not watch the dev stream? Nigtmare is going to be completely retooled. They are implementing an insane level/tier between hard <-> nightmare.. My guess is the gear we're in nightmare with atm will be the new insane lvl gear, and that nightmare will get bumped up to a higher ipwr level with the new changes coming in the next week or two.


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Not to mention EVEN if you let Quab fall, all it does is open a kinda weak air lane. Weak as in it may as well not be air, since it just travels straight down the center.

Also I disagree that Liferoot is better designed. For one, air lanes are again, not really air lanes at all, since they follow normal lane pathing EXACTLY. Secondly, the north and northwest lane is VERY buggy; The north lane is way too wide, and even then enemies sometimes leak past the right side despite being clearly blocked thanks to the steep slope. The north west lane also has an issue of Malthius simply camping the spawn entrance because it decides to aggro the defenses on your north path, and it's not something you can do about because of how close the north path is to the northwest path.

I'd argue that Liferoot is in fact the WORST designed map. (the second worst being Siphon Site D because of the stupid air lane being so close to core). If you want to see how to design a good 3-4 lane map, Gates of Dragonfall is very well done.

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Liferoot Forest isn't bad as a map, but the enemy difficulty and recommended iPWR don't match up.  On endgame hard I can beat it solo with iPWR 140 gear despite the map recommending 191.  The situation is similar across all modes and difficulties.  Consequently the loot it gives is way out of proportion and it allows short-circuiting the normal progression.

@Alabama quote:

Did you not watch the dev stream? Nigtmare is going to be completely retooled. They are implementing an insane level/tier between hard <-> nightmare.. My guess is the gear we're in nightmare with atm will be the new insane lvl gear, and that nightmare will get bumped up to a higher ipwr level with the new changes coming in the next week or two.

From the upcoming patch notes it looks like they're only renaming the endgame difficulties so free play normal = endgame normal.  The "new" insane difficulty will be the same as current endgame hard.

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@tdb quote:
@Alabama quote:

Did you not watch the dev stream? Nigtmare is going to be completely retooled. They are implementing an insane level/tier between hard <-> nightmare.. My guess is the gear we're in nightmare with atm will be the new insane lvl gear, and that nightmare will get bumped up to a higher ipwr level with the new changes coming in the next week or two.

From the upcoming patch notes it looks like they're only renaming the endgame difficulties so free play normal = endgame normal.  The "new" insane difficulty will be the same as current endgame hard.

Yea, I see that they put out notes last night. That doesn't really jive with how they described it in the stream, but looking at those notes, a few things are different as well. 

Guess we'll have to wait til patch day to see what really happens ;)

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I don't think the current NM gear will become insane gear but I think by squeezing a tier in the middle they can tack more tiers of gear on the end and make what we currently have become mid NM gear.

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