Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wieahimmer

Apprentice Builder / Ok or just awful

Recommended Posts

Apprentice Builders are in my opinion too weak. in every game I join, everyone just cry’s: “sell your towers” even though my defense Power is something like 1.600 with lvl 46. No tower of mine seems viable, Flame towers dps is not high enough (aoe just doesn’t cut it in the opinion of the gaming community in game), same with earth even worse, Arcane barrier is just far weaker then barricades, maybe Frost is viable but no one wants him either ^^.

So as an Apprenticebuilder I just stay back upgrade and watch the game while shooting, although my dmg is miserable.

Will there be an Apprentice buff?
Or do I do something wrong (as a builder, I don’t want a hero dps Apprentice). I focus on Defense Power, Attack speed and a little Tower Health.

I would appreciate feedback, if you feel the same or if there is a way to make the Apprentice builder work en par with squire or monk.

Thx, wieahimmer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to say it's just bad stigma from the first batch of endgame players, at least in the late iPWR game. Many of them quickly renounced the viability of Huntress and Apprentice and clung onto the belief that only Squire and LSA + AA can work at that stage of the game. It spread to their friends and viewers quickly.

When I stream I try to whenever possible use Apprentice towers over LSA on standard rounds of Endgame NM4 Incursion. They work just fine.

I can't speak for their viability in solo play pre-50 since I played Traptress solo until that point. However if it's a case of "why should I use x if y is clearly better" then I can sympathize with Apprentice defenses. This map was the first time I used Flameburst towers, only because I was curious of all the naysayers saying it wasn't viable, and for all intents and purposes, finding an Apprentice player to party with was pretty difficult. We had problems at first because the towers were too close to the barricades and taking damage/aggro (and they were built for defense power/DCD, so assuredly they fell quick in this set-up) but we tinkered around with our build until they were in a safe aggro-free spot.

Just a personal record of my experiences with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flameburst is an area damage source and it scales as one. This creates a problem. Magic damage effectively only has access to a single target damaging defense at level 50 after getting an uber. That is far too many barriers to access a defense that does and scales for single target damage. Physical starts with a single target damage defense. People use Cannon because it scales very well and it gets that great scaling because it is single target. Magic needs access to a single target defense that isn't locked behind an uber. Apprentice already has two area damage defenses, lets make one single target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Hecate quote:

Flameburst is an area damage source and it scales as one. This creates a problem. Magic damage effectively only has access to a single target damaging defense at level 50 after getting an uber. That is far too many barriers to access a defense that does and scales for single target damage. Physical starts with a single target damage defense. People use Cannon because it scales very well and it gets that great scaling because it is single target. Magic needs access to a single target defense that isn't locked behind an uber. Apprentice already has two area damage defenses, lets make one single target.

What? if anything, flamethrower scales more like an AoE than flameburst. (in fact, it's the most AoE of all apprentice towers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you two mean by things "scaling like an AoE" and "scaling because it's single target"? 

Scaling means progression, moving forward, etc afaik.  How do defenses "scale" differently based on whether they're AoE or not?  The only way these can "scale" differently throughout the game is if the density of monsters grew substantially towards endgame, which would favor AoE over single target, which would mean AoE towers "scale" better with difficulty.

Do you guys mean the towers scale differently when they're upgraded?  Scale differently with the accumulation of defense power?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When they talk about scaling they are referring to how the dmg is affected by the tower defense power. Aoe towers get a lower factor since they can dmg more targets , and singel target towers get a higher scale as they only hit 1 target at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What, I am playing Apprentice for many months now. App towers have never been more useful than now. They got even more health (before, they really were like glass cannons). Of course, soloing is not possible due to resistances, but that's great. I don't think he's too weak. But being compared with Squire, Squire's Cannonball Tower does too much AoE in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe they are better now, i startet after the Wipe, so i dont know about that.
What i can state, is that in plain comparison, he is weaker in many ways then Monk and Squire.

This does not mean he isnt playable, isnt fun or is useless in a map, it just means he is less effectiv overall.


(but sometimes i think the actuall ingame community thinks he is useless, or a hughe part of it)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Pachipachio quote:

What do you two mean by things "scaling like an AoE" and "scaling because it's single target"? 

Scaling means progression, moving forward, etc afaik.  How do defenses "scale" differently based on whether they're AoE or not?  The only way these can "scale" differently throughout the game is if the density of monsters grew substantially towards endgame, which would favor AoE over single target, which would mean AoE towers "scale" better with difficulty.

Do you guys mean the towers scale differently when they're upgraded?  Scale differently with the accumulation of defense power?

Yes. Not every tower gets the same increase in dmg per each extra point of Defense Power (and others stats). Cannonball tower is single target, and therefore scales better with at least Defense Power (dunno about the other stats), while Flamethingy scales less.

With the exact same gear stats, one tower has more than than the other, because one can only dmg 1 target at a time, and the other damages enemies around its target.

Now, I like that they both work that way, but there should be an alternative. Just like there is no good way to physically damage air units (ballista is pretty bad atm from what I've seen) while in terms of magical air damage Sky Guard Tower is awesome. If you want to deal high single target magical damage you must build Lightning Strikes aura.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Skalli quote:

What, I am playing Apprentice for many months now. App towers have never been more useful than now. They got even more health (before, they really were like glass cannons). Of course, soloing is not possible due to resistances, but that's great. I don't think he's too weak. But being compared with Squire, Squire's Cannonball Tower does too much AoE in my opinion.

Just to be clear, squire cannonball tower does absolutely NO AoE damage, which is why they are totally useless in NM4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could we just stop with "so and so tower is useless" because really that is just either people who have not properly tested that defense themselves or have tested/geared for it improperly.

The make believe issue surrounding the Squire, Traptress, and Apprentice builders comes down to this: 

People worship the Monk's LSA because a Monk only needs to stack Defense Power (and get gloves with increased Aura Attack Rate) to be viable due to LSA having very poor Crit Damage scaling. This poor Crit Damage scaling negates the need to obtain both stats Crit and Crit Damage which makes a Monk much easier to gear. Therefore, decreasing the base damage of LSA and increasing the Crit Damage scaling could be something to look for in the future, but getting the numbers just right without breaking LSA could be tricky. 

HOWEVER, for the other three builders, Squire, Traptress, and Apprentice, you need to have more than just Defense Power for them to really shine. Once you are able to get some Crit Chance and Crit Damage as well as maintaining Defense Power on your non-Monk builder they become more than viable. Side note, it is also very highly recommended that you get a "Vector" (increases the range of projectile towers by x percent) secondary roll on your helm for a Squire or Apprentice builder to be able to both place your defenses in a safe spot as well as out range those pesky Necromacers and Spear guys.

I feel that just because the non-Monk builders are "harder" to gear for and may require a little more effort in finding the right positioning of the defenses themselves, people just jump to this non-existent belief that they are useless or not viable. That said, this also makes the leveling and gearing process much harder for the non-Monk builders before the proper stats are obtained.

@Saintone quote:

When I stream I try to whenever possible use Apprentice towers over LSA on standard rounds of Endgame NM4 Incursion. They work just fine.

I was a part of this stream and we tested running Endgame NM4 Incursion Liferoot using Zero LSAs and instead using Explosive Traps and Flameburst Turrets as the main defenses. I have also been in games (on that same map and Endgame NM4 Onslaught) using a Squire Cannons for the MR lanes and they work just fine as well.

Sorry for the long rant. This stigma that Monk LSAs are the only viable defenses is just killing me though.

TL;DR - Squire, Traptress, Apprentice builders are viable endgame but are "harder" to gear for than a Monk builder. This causes them to have a more difficult time during the gearing up process and are often called useless builders or not viable because of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't think stacking crit really makes that big of a DPS change on either of those guys - there's a nice analysis of it on traps + flameburst/earthshatter done by a guy last week: here

What do you think of that OP in light of your experiences?

Because it's all flat rates, it's really just a function of a towers base crit and tower attack speed.  Base crit values are really low compared to the huge # we can get from high iPWR gear so that's really meaningless in comparisons between towers.  The OP's results there were done with low iPWR gear so the towers that had inherit large crit bonuses would suffer more down the line next to the faster attacking counterparts.  So, it comes down to just tower speed in how effective crit builds are on a tower.  I'd agree LSA probably benefits least from crit but those other towers aren't that much faster.  Maybe some interesting tests could be done with crit dmg/chance on towers that attack really quickly (like poison dart, or blaze balloon maybe) but otherwise I doubt it'll be any more than 10% increase in DPS even with superduper generous crit damage/chance rolls on all the gear


I think it's more about your first point and it's just a made up sense of what's good or not based on what people have heard first.  Some people get really defeatist about certain builds/strategies and get a huge ego about trying to defend their claims

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't talk for the endgame, since I'm only lv 43 right now, but I'm playing every then and when with a good buddy, who made an app-builder.

From what I have seen, it is pretty strong, specially the flameburst-towers. He usually places 3-4 next to each other, combined with 1 frost + 1 earth, maybe 1-2 barricades and (at least so far) we are doing pretty good.

There might be problems post lv50, but (at least for the midgame), the app is imho one of the strongest builders. (except AA, but well, i kinda like it, that the app isn't a one-char-wonder).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a mixed resistance lane with flameburst towers and cannonball towers that do roughly 2x dps. My flameburst towers will have done more dmg at the end of the map 90% of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apprentice is shi.et.
Just use to it (or wait for buff buahhahaha).
You can at least go full ap/damage on physical lane and spam that w+m1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the app's defenses are fairly well balanced. Earthshatter is a bit underpowered in terms of utility and damage for its DU cost, while the arcane barrier having downtime means it loses aggro on enemies so they walk past then get launched further behind your defenses when it goes back up. Frostbite is a great utility defense and flamebursts are quite viable in terms of magic output. Sure, they're no LSA's, but LSA's deserve a nerf anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@๖ۣۜPhoenixX quote:


@Angelatic-Birdy quote:

Try the AP mage with 5 mana sphere and the 25% cdr on your abilites

You will hurt with enough AP equiped!! ;)

I was plannin to work on one.. is 25% max you can get on it ?

do you need crit or mainly just ability?

Well you can also buy another cooldown sphere to get 45% less cooldown on your abilities

But I think the extra 20% is kinda useless because where are you gonna get all that mana from?

You need to be able to spam your abilities mad mage, which is hard to do

If you have zero mana after spamming a couple of abilities...


That 5 mana per second wlil help you a ton with spamming your abilities at your enemies!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Pachipachio quote:

Don't think stacking crit really makes that big of a DPS change on either of those guys - there's a nice analysis of it on traps + flameburst/earthshatter done by a guy last week: here

Yeah I dunno what I was thinking in my math there. I mean it's right, but I arrived at those answers in a hugely roundabout manner lol. If you want to calculate your dps gain from crit stats, it is simply: (Crit Dmg * Crit Chance)/Attack Rate. For total dps, it's just: [Dmg + (Crit Dmg * Crit Chance)]/Attack Rate.



@๖ۣۜPhoenixX quote:


@Angelatic-Birdy quote:

Try the AP mage with 5 mana sphere and the 25% cdr on your abilites

You will hurt with enough AP equiped!! ;)

I was plannin to work on one.. is 25% max you can get on it ?

do you need crit or mainly just ability?

Honestly the biggest problem with AP Apprentice is the fact that his best damage ability is worthless in a grounded lane, grounded onslaught round, or against nearly all bosses. If it can't lift the target, it doesn't deal any damage at all, except for Betsy for some reason. Since magic missile is just about worthless, and Mana Bomb is on a long CD, this means that in those cases an App just can't put out much dmg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

arcane barriers are crap, and from what I've seen over and over they do more damage than good with throwing mobs behind the defenses they're supposed to be protecting. Which just further adds something you need to micro manage on solo play.

Flame towers, I said it back when they announced the shifting of defense stats around and I still stand by it. Putting the flame tower buff stat on trinkets is a huge FU to app. Getting a good trinket with a good pyromania % on it is borderline requiring an animal sacrifice to RNGesus. Which makes it harder to get your flame towers to their full potential. There's no passive (I can think of) on pants, why not just put it there instead? Flame towers are a victim to the wave spawn. You get a ton of them little gremlins running around, flame tower can hold its own if not better than say a cannon. But the less targets and bigger the hp of the mobs, I'll stick with my cannons even if it means eating a 35%-55% damage loss they'll still out perform flames. And they're still the most expensive "common" tower out there.

Frost tower lacks especially when you start to add ranged mobs into the mix it encourages them to stay that C hair out of your towers range while popping your barriers. 

Earthshatter I honestly haven't used in I can't recall how long, it's just a slower, slightly weaker ground based flame tower. Sitting in the same sad boat as the ballista you can get better from cheaper options.


saddens me but my app is seeing less and less action and that sucks cause I really am a huge fan of the apprentice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@EviLGreeNPenguiN quote:

Flame towers, I said it back when they announced the shifting of defense stats around and I still stand by it. Putting the flame tower buff stat on trinkets is a huge FU to app. Getting a good trinket with a good pyromania % on it is borderline requiring an animal sacrifice to RNGesus.

Preach it brother. I literally used this relic for about 22 levels before finding an upgrade: QA2Zyyl.jpg

Even then, it was an upgrade in the most technical sense. I gained 1 DPS... lol. I could find dozens of the DHP relics with pyromania on them, but never found a good actual DP relic with it. Or if it did, it was a low value, like 8%.

I ended up just leveling to 50 to use the relic I had purchased at the beginning, when for some reason the shop was selling lvl 50 items to my pre lvl 10 apprentice. Just my last match I found a lvl 45 legendary relic that was an improvement, since it rolled 18%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apprentice doesn't suck, it's just that their total dmg output isn't always worth that 40 DU.

The Pyromania secondary stat while necessary, doesn't mean if you don't have it, your towers can no longer deal dmg.

I guess the main problem is the fact that APP towers are expensive, yet since the nerf hasn't really given players their full DU value, especially with the necessity of the Pyromania stat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...