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H3M1V3

Flameburst/Flamethrower

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As the Name already says i wanna talk a bit about These 2 Towers. First of all most People think flamethrower is a pretty useless Tower, low range, etc. in Addition alot of People complain about app not having singletarget dmg at all.


Lets start with towerrange:

Flameburst ->Flamethrower

2400            ->1300

2520(+120) ->1364(+64)

2640(+120) ->1430(+66)

2760(+120) ->1430(+0)

2880(+120) ->1560(+130)

This Shows me that lvl5 is fine even though that lvl4 is a fail. Btw why do you increase it by 64 and then 66? just make range 65 every lvl.

Now to get to the Point, People think its crap cause of low towerrange, but think about it. Flameburst has to stand a bit behind the walls to be safe from ogre/Bombers, so this Tower is loosing alot of its range already, while the flamethrower (FT) is placed before the wall on the sides so that the edge of the attack radius is barely at the walls. The FT has the Advantage of not producing any aggro, so while flameburst Needs to hide, FT doesnt care about that fact and since you have 360degrees attack radius you actually have 1300*2 attackrange. even on lvl 1 the range to the walls is high enough to take 0 dmg from exploding Bombers.


The only Thing that is annoying for me are the Upgrades for flamethrower. Just to give you guys a Little bit of math:

Flameburst ->Flamethrower

1620            ->1428
2430(+50%)->2035(+42.5%)
3240(+50%)->2584(+38.4%)
4049(+50%)->3083(+34.9%)
4859(+50%)->3591(+35.6%)


dmg is increasing for flamethrower but the Speed goes down. ffs im "improving" my Tower, why does the Speed gets worse then? im not crying for +Speed/towerlevel just dont decrease our Speed or atleast push dmg more, so we actually get the 50%dmg increase of the Tower basedps. Fix that plz.

But even now its worth to use it, since flameburst is only dealing 2/3 of the dmg to every enemy which is not the main target. so on 2 enemies you have like 2700 dps for flamburst vs 2856 for flamethrower. the cone of the flamethrower is big enough, if he attacks the 5 dummies which are in a straight line in tavern, to dmg the lone one on the side as well (so nobody can complain the cone is to tiny).


FT is like an Aura/trap, but with a Little different treating. Auras have energy and traps got charges both are invul otherwise. FT doesnt have These kinds of things where you have to upgrade/repair to stop These selfdestructing them while attack. since FT doesnt have this it has hp. since it has no aggro you are save if you place that Tower on the sides, while traps can use their range effectively by being placed right on the way. It'll get attacked though when it is right on the way where the enemies walk.



Bugs:

-DPS tooltip from FT

-towerrange sphere not working on FT


PS: and no the extra flame dmg is not bugged for FT, it's working fine. the numbers are just lower than from FB but you get the procc more often. if you test it in tavern you see sometimes 2 instead of 1 number popping up. for me its around 300+ which is exactly the 40% value stated in the tooltip of the sphere.



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@H3M1V3 quote:

As the Name already says i wanna talk a bit about These 2 Towers. First of all most People think flamethrower is a pretty useless Tower, low range, etc. in Addition alot of People complain about app not having singletarget dmg at all.


Lets start with towerrange:

Flameburst ->Flamethrower

2400            ->1300

2520(+120) ->1364(+64)

2640(+120) ->1430(+66)

2760(+120) ->1430(+0)

2880(+120) ->1560(+130)

This Shows me that lvl5 is fine even though that lvl4 is a fail. Btw why do you increase it by 64 and then 66? just make range 65 every lvl.

Now to get to the Point, People think its crap cause of low towerrange, but think about it. Flameburst has to stand a bit behind the walls to be safe from ogre/Bombers, so this Tower is loosing alot of its range already, while the flamethrower (FT) is placed before the wall on the sides so that the edge of the attack radius is barely at the walls. The FT has the Advantage of not producing any aggro, so while flameburst Needs to hide, FT doesnt care about that fact and since you have 360degrees attack radius you actually have 1300*2 attackrange. even on lvl 1 the range to the walls is high enough to take 0 dmg from exploding Bombers.


The only Thing that is annoying for me are the Upgrades for flamethrower. Just to give you guys a Little bit of math:

Flameburst ->Flamethrower

1620            ->1428
2430(+50%)->2035(+42.5%)
3240(+50%)->2584(+38.4%)
4049(+50%)->3083(+34.9%)
4859(+50%)->3591(+35.6%)


dmg is increasing for flamethrower but the Speed goes down. ffs im "improving" my Tower, why does the Speed gets worse then? im not crying for +Speed/towerlevel just dont decrease our Speed or atleast push dmg more, so we actually get the 50%dmg increase of the Tower basedps. Fix that plz.

But even now its worth to use it, since flameburst is only dealing 2/3 of the dmg to every enemy which is not the main target. so on 2 enemies you have like 2700 dps for flamburst vs 2856 for flamethrower. the cone of the flamethrower is big enough, if he attacks the 5 dummies which are in a straight line in tavern, to dmg the lone one on the side as well (so nobody can complain the cone is to tiny).


FT is like an Aura/trap, but with a Little different treating. Auras have energy and traps got charges both are invul otherwise. FT doesnt have These kinds of things where you have to upgrade/repair to stop These selfdestructing them while attack. since FT doesnt have this it has hp. since it has no aggro you are save if you place that Tower on the sides, while traps can use their range effectively by being placed right on the way. It'll get attacked though when it is right on the way where the enemies walk.



Bugs:

-DPS tooltip from FT

-towerrange sphere not working on FT


PS: and no the extra flame dmg is not bugged for FT, it's working fine. the numbers are just lower than from FB but you get the procc more often. if you test it in tavern you see sometimes 2 instead of 1 number popping up. for me its around 300+ which is exactly the 40% value stated in the tooltip of the sphere.



I'd argue the attackspeed drop is in itself a bug too. :P You do have to also consider that you do have to sacrifice an uber slot for flamethrower. Granted since FT isn't supposed to be hit much at all to begin with nont of the other tower-based ubers (for now) helps at all, but still.

(also, I've a slight nagging feeling that flamethrower may have been slightly stealth-buffed very recently, not too sure though)

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You don't give up an uber slot for Flamethrower. You equip the uber, drop the towers, put a different uber in.

The biggest problem i see with Flamethrower is the range. I know it has reduced or no threat but that still leaves the issue of placement with ogre stomp to consider. The damage would need to be really really high to be worth the hassle. Even then Flamethrower's range basically means it must be in range of the stomp to be effective which is a huge reason to just use a trap or aura instead. The only solution I can think of is to make towers immune to ogre's stomp. We'd still need to carefully control where the basic attacks land but at least there would be a chance for the defense to function.

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@Hecate quote:

You don't give up an uber slot for Flamethrower. You equip the uber, drop the towers, put a different uber in.

The biggest problem i see with Flamethrower is the range. I know it has reduced or no threat but that still leaves the issue of placement with ogre stomp to consider. The damage would need to be really really high to be worth the hassle. Even then Flamethrower's range basically means it must be in range of the stomp to be effective which is a huge reason to just use a trap or aura instead. The only solution I can think of is to make towers immune to ogre's stomp. We'd still need to carefully control where the basic attacks land but at least there would be a chance for the defense to function.

Can't exactly blame me for not realizing that other tower ubers still apply to your towers that are built without that uber. In fact, this "uber to change tower" mechanic is unnecessarily confusing, they should just have a dedicated set of sphere nodes specifically for changing towers. Or better yet, make towers equipable as spheres.

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@Hecate quote:

You don't give up an uber slot for Flamethrower. You equip the uber, drop the towers, put a different uber in.

The biggest problem i see with Flamethrower is the range. I know it has reduced or no threat but that still leaves the issue of placement with ogre stomp to consider. The damage would need to be really really high to be worth the hassle. Even then Flamethrower's range basically means it must be in range of the stomp to be effective which is a huge reason to just use a trap or aura instead. The only solution I can think of is to make towers immune to ogre's stomp. We'd still need to carefully control where the basic attacks land but at least there would be a chance for the defense to function.

1300 range should be far enough from the butt stomp, no?

If it's placed so that the barricade is just out of range it should be able to shoot the ogre and not be slammed


Ogres only slam when players are near by so there should never be a random slam that goes off as the ogre is walking by the tower, so that's not a possibility

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@Pachipachio quote:


@Hecate quote:

You don't give up an uber slot for Flamethrower. You equip the uber, drop the towers, put a different uber in.

The biggest problem i see with Flamethrower is the range. I know it has reduced or no threat but that still leaves the issue of placement with ogre stomp to consider. The damage would need to be really really high to be worth the hassle. Even then Flamethrower's range basically means it must be in range of the stomp to be effective which is a huge reason to just use a trap or aura instead. The only solution I can think of is to make towers immune to ogre's stomp. We'd still need to carefully control where the basic attacks land but at least there would be a chance for the defense to function.

1300 range should be far enough from the butt stomp, no?

If it's placed so that the barricade is just out of range it should be able to shoot the ogre and not be slammed


Ogres only slam when players are near by so there should never be a random slam that goes off as the ogre is walking by the tower, so that's not a possibility

1) No it isn't far enough. check with dummies to see just how close it is.

2) You'll rarely be using the flamethrower to hit at max range, since it's an AoE tower and you want it to actually penetrate and hit other mobs.

3) You'll want to place flamethrowers in front of barriers and beside the enemies, not behind the barriers, compounding the issue further.

4) Unless you want the defense to be able to handle ogres without player intervention, having no players nearby is not an option.

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I think you misunderstood and went full on passive aggressive on me :\

1) I don't have a flamethrower uber but 1300 range is 100% far enough to keep away from buttslam, I was asking rhetorically.  Unless the tower doesn't actually have 1300 range as per the OP

2) You SHOULD use flamethrower tower to hit at max range if the max range is in your "killzone" and the rest of it extends in front of the lane.

3) In my scenario the tower is well in front, past the barricade - hence the "barricade is just out of range".  Placing the flamethrower behind your barricade and not having it even reach it would be pretty retarded

4) That was just a little caveat towards someone who thought an ogre walking down lane could randomly buttstomp right next to the flamethrower.  Intervene with the ogre when it's standing at max range of the tower

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@Pachipachio quote:

I think you misunderstood and went full on passive aggressive on me :\

1) I don't have a flamethrower uber but 1300 range is 100% far enough to keep away from buttslam, I was asking rhetorically.  Unless the tower doesn't actually have 1300 range as per the OP

2) You SHOULD use flamethrower tower to hit at max range if the max range is in your "killzone" and the rest of it extends in front of the lane.

3) In my scenario the tower is well in front, past the barricade - hence the "barricade is just out of range".  Placing the flamethrower behind your barricade and not having it even reach it would be pretty retarded

4) That was just a little caveat towards someone who thought an ogre walking down lane could randomly buttstomp right next to the flamethrower.  Intervene with the ogre when it's standing at max range of the tower

1) Or unless 1300 range is much shorter than you think. I'm being blunt here. It isn't far enough, period.

2) 1300 is the max range of killzone. It doesn't extend further.

3) Regardless, the point remains that the flamethrower is too close to ogre. Especially when you consider that the ogre is inbetween the barrier and flamethrower, hence the flamethrower needing to be even closer than max range anyway.

4) Again, max range isn't far enough. That along with you rarely using flamethrower at max range anyway, means that it's still liable to be wrecked by ogre buttstomps.


On a separate note, perhaps  you should get the flamethrower to test it out before making assumptions?

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@Kyrn quote:

3) Regardless, the point remains that the flamethrower is too close to ogre. Especially when you consider that the ogre is inbetween the barrier and flamethrower, hence the fmalethrower needing to be even closer than max range anyway.


what does your second sentence even mean?  hence what?  How do you draw that conclusion?  You didn't explain that bit


I still don't think you understand what I suggested a few posts back and are arguing your own straw man here

F = Flamethrower, T = generic traditional towers, B = barricade, (-----) range

bear with me here...

<Mobs come from here>                  (---F---)  (B)(T)        <The crystal we protect!>

The flamethrower's edge of range should not touch the barricade, but instead leave a bit of space (400 range would still ensure hitting werboars and orcs, but not little goblins) - that way when the big ol' ogre is standing in front of it and butt slamming the flamethrower is at maximum range away from the buttslams.


If you're "rarely using flamethrower at max range" then no wonder it gets butt slammed, right?  Have you ever tried using it in a fashion where it's at its maximum range away from the buttslamming ogres?

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I'm not going to make any further replies after this to someone who has already noted they do not have the flamethrower uber, so is theorycrafting instead of actually testing in a live environment.

Here's a tip: I actually test the flamethrower.

Here's another tip: No one should position a flamethower to specifically fight ogres, since that's not their forte; flamebursts WILL do more DPS against them. The issue is that any optimal placement for flamethrowers to actually do their job well would put them in position to be buttstomped, unless you're putting them to only attack ranged mobs (don't forget that the ogre is fairly large, eating up those distances further). 

Placing them to attack ranged only is a possible alternative, but it isn't nearly as efficient as placing them to be able to attack both unit types, making them not quite as useful for melee-based scenarios. Another issue of placing them to specifically target ranged is that though they have nearly no aggro, they do sometimes get aggro, especially when you place them too far from other defenses; If you're placing them to only attack ranged, the ranged is liable to aggro them directly. And the last issue is that if you're placing them to specifically only target ranged, you're basically placing a destructible lightning aura in a position where lightning aura would probably do better; The key advantage of flamethrower over lightning aura is that it can swivel to target a larger area, in most cases being both the melee and ranged zone. (the not draining aspect is a negligible factor; being completely indestructible more than makes up for that) (Note, I've not tested blaze balloon, though I suspect it'd be much better at "attacking ranged units only" scenarios as well, other than non-stacking)

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Dude.. no offense, honestly.  You replied to me really passive aggressively and talked about things like, "oh no don't put it behind the barricade" when I specifically said the OPPOSITE in the very post you quoted.  

It's just really rude and makes you look bad when you don't acknowledge it and CONTINUE being a dbag, you know?  


Let's just leave it at that though.  Obviously this wasn't going anywhere immediately after your 1st post

Cheers man, no hard feelings

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can we atleast keep giving feedback about this turret instead of fighting with eachother? i feel like the game has more priority over personal fights with someone that ultimately wants the same thing, which is a balanced game.

anyway, onto the flamethrower turret, oh boy this is a tough one, ever since i bought the uber sphere i haven't found a single reason to use it, since flameburst outperforms it in every single way, at this point i just feel like its too weak, the idea is nice but if the numbers are so low because they're scared it might be "too op" (cough LSA cough) then might aswell not have it in the shop.

Even with proper placement at chokepoints i find myself better off using flameburst because even after placing flameburst a decent distance behind my walls they still reach across the map with double 10% range spheres and 13% on my helm, heck i actually never ever get outranged by anything.

conclusion: flameburst>flamethrower in every situation, regardless of what someone says this seems to be the sad truth after testing it myself.

please do share your opinions on the tower and where you think its "strong" when actually comparing it to flameburst after testing it yourself.

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@xdeviler quote:

can we atleast keep giving feedback about this turret instead of fighting with eachother? i feel like the game has more priority over personal fights with someone that ultimately wants the same thing, which is a balanced game.

anyway, onto the flamethrower turret, oh boy this is a tough one, ever since i bought the uber sphere i haven't found a single reason to use it, since flameburst outperforms it in every single way, at this point i just feel like its too weak, the idea is nice but if the numbers are so low because they're scared it might be "too op" (cough LSA cough) then might aswell not have it in the shop.

Even with proper placement at chokepoints i find myself better off using flameburst because even after placing flameburst a decent distance behind my walls they still reach across the map with double 10% range spheres and 13% on my helm, heck i actually never ever get outranged by anything.

conclusion: flameburst>flamethrower in every situation, regardless of what someone says this seems to be the sad truth after testing it myself.

please do share your opinions on the tower and where you think its "strong" when actually comparing it to flameburst after testing it yourself.

Flamethrower actually isn't all that bad at bendy chokepoints where Flameburst can't make use of it's fantastic range very well. Though there're not that many locations where you're forced to use a bendy chokepoint. (though the ruins does come to mind, I'll need to test it there)

Another possible good position for flamethrower is in Siphon Site D, specifically the lower path (any placement for flameburst which can properly hit the path is liable to be ambushed by lightning bugs from above) and the optional objective (which is one of the forementioned bendy chokepoints)

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