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Defense Speed/Build Creation Idea Barn

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Let us get some level points for each level we gain, where we can put them into a chosen category, fx tower speed.

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@WhissT quote:

Let us get some level points for each level we gain, where we can put them into a chosen category, fx tower speed.

Best idea so far, no hard changes to the game.

Just some skillpoints added for the hero to use as perks in the way the player wants to use his hero.

Skillpoints get added when hero levels up and they can be used for various perks: ds, dp, dh, hh, hp, ha, etc.

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TL;DL UBERS: Chain explosive traps, Oil flasks stays on the ground, geyser only applies drench on a bigger area.


As a main Huntress builder player since DD1, I'd like to see some functionality back from DD1 and some improvements for what DD2 tried to do with her. Here are some Uber ideas.

Chain Explosion trap: Make your Explosive trap deal less damage, but It chain explodes every trap nearby.

This will encourage smart trap placement and setups, and would be great for clearing up hordes of enemies In exchange for damage, which you could negate with smart placement to trigger a chain that'll hit with multiple traps at once.

Persistent Oil flask: Your flask hits the ground and for X seconds and applies to everyone that walks over It. Deals no damage.

Let's face It, this is neither a good CC since It lakes AoE, not worth gearing for duration for the slow and the damage...just nope. So make It better at what It Is supposed to be used for In exchange for maybe duration on enemies while slowing them down where the oil hit, and eliminate the damage proportion of It.

Drench Geyser trap: Make It bigger. Make It faster. Make the damage turn Into a DoT instead of the high burst. Remove knock up.

As of now, the atrocious fire rate on It make It useless for both DPS, CC and drench. So If there Isn't going to be a buff to any of those, make It better what It used to do.

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How about Cannonball tower getting bounce? so that it hits two targets. Atm cannonball turret is a bit underwhelming

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@Punatulkku quote:

How about Cannonball tower getting bounce? so that it hits two targets. Atm cannonball turret is a bit underwhelming

Do this and call it Defense Pinball. I'd love to use this in small alleys until the ball bursts.

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@SGRock quote:

It appears that there is a current meta against gear that rolls decent numbers for both defense power and defense health, instead giving one a strong value and the other a poor value.  At the same time it appears there is a much heavier drop rate on gear with player damage.


Please increase the odds of getting decent defense power and defense health stats on the same item.

Glad I'm not the only one noticing this. Finally got to 50 last night, 4 runs of various maps and how many drops did I get with both power and health? Zero. I'd say a good 80% of gear was double hero stats, and the remaining 20% only had either power or health.

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two suggestions and some thoughts:

1: give us point to assign into specific stats upon leveling up, similar to what dd1 did, make defense speed one of the things you can pick, but make the other options equally powerful/attractive. This puts a cap on how much you can get, and introduces an opportunity cost to getting it. The other options would clearly have to be quite strong and fun as well, to make sure its a tough choice, but rewarding no matter what you go with.

2: in path of exile, you can get "increased/reduced" and "more/less" modifiers for damage, speed etc., where increased is additive, and more is multiplicative. You could use this principle to introduce a "weak" kind of defense speed (increased), that is easy to get, and a "strong" kind (more), that is much more limited in where you can get, and thus easier to control for you guys. This would make players able to get their defense speed fix pretty easily, but "breaking the game" as it were, will require stacking it very high, and getting all the sources of the strong kind, thus also introducing a (hopefully high) opportunity cost, which in turn balances it out. (this is exactly what poe does, and i think it works quite well)

Personally i think the best solution in general is some form of opportunity cost. i'll use a couple of examples from path of exile again, because i think they do an amazing job of balancing over there. In PoE, critting is awesome, and you can quite readily get a very high crit chance, but the investment is so high you will get a relatively low amount of basic damage increases, and defenses, the end result is very high damage, that isnt broken, and a less tanky character. Another example is magic finding stats, its something that you CAN stack very high, but if you do that, the cost is that your character cant fight very well (meaning fewer enemies killed per hour, which defeats the purpose of mf), which makes it a balancing act, where almost every source of magic find is gonna have some cost. Last example from PoE, you can pick an option that makes you always hit enemies, but unable to crit, and another option that makes you unable to be stunned, but unable to evade attacks, these are things that would normally be pretty damned OP and a non-choice, but the downside make them balanced, and occasionally build enabling.

So back to dd2, let defense speed be powerful, let it even be OP, just make us pay for it in ways that brings it back into balance.

Hope this serves as some inspiration


edit: also, the game needs (well, it would be cool at least ^^) chance on hit procs. in regard to defense speed, this would only make it more powerful, but it would also make it powerful in and of itself, meaning you could more easily and heavily penalize on hit damage. like, maybe there is a source that gives you crazy speed, but reduces hit range and damage heavily, the proc could shore up both penalties.

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It seems to me that the reasons why players who want defense speed back fall into four primary categories:

  1. Because it makes defenses (especially projectile towers) look more impressive
  2. Because it avoids actual problems that exist in the game (e.g. ballista animation, group of cannonballs shooting the same weak enemy for massive overkill)
  3. Because it can be used to trivialize the game (geyser + LA permastun combo)
  4. Because if looks comical when towers twitch like they had an epileptic stroke and emit a continuous beam of projectiles
Out of these, 1 and 2 are actual valid concerns.  Here's some ideas to solve them:
  • Give one or two points of defense speed per level.  This makes them get gradually faster and give a feel of growing power, but keep the amount of speed controllable.
  • Scale up the visuals based on defense power.  As an example, a cannonball tower from a level 1 squire could emit just a grey ball; a level 50 with 3000 DP could have an effect similar to the current one, only even more intense.  This gives a feel of power without actually having to touch the amount of damage defenses do.
  • Make enemies immune to a disabling CC effect like stun or knockup after being subjected to it once.  This allows more leeway with defense speed without risking breaking the game.  The slow from frostbite tower can stay as it is because it doesn't disable enemies entirely.
  • Create a medium sphere with a percentage increase to defense speed.  Yes, it overlaps with small spheres, but so does the defense crit chance medium sphere.
  • Create a large sphere that transforms defense critical damage into a speed increase.  For instance, a defense that does 1500 normal damage and has a 25% chance to do additional 1200 critical damage would get a 20% increase in its attack speed.  This gives the option to do less damage more often, without changing the overall DPS.
  • Create a large sphere that makes monk's boost aura boost defense speed instead of power.  The increase could be based on the ratio of the defense's DP and boost DP.  For example, if a defense has 1000 DP and the aura would normally boost it with 150 DP, it would instead grant 15% increased attack rate.  This is a variation of the above, allowing a wider range of playstyles without changing overall efficiency.
  • Create a large sphere that reduces a tower's attack cooldown following a critical hit (for a single attack).  The reduction could be somewhere around 25-50%.
  • Move ballista's shot much closer to the start of its attack animation.  There's no real reason why it should take aim for three seconds before shooting when almost all other towers shoot practically instantly.
  • Make towers co-operate with nearby towers to avoid wasted shots (some details here).
Other random ideas:
  • Monk large sphere: Static charge: As long as there are no enemies in lightning aura, it gradually builds up an electric charge which increases damage by up to 200%.  As enemies enter the aura, the charge quickly dissipates over a few hits.
  • Squire uber sphere: Mortar cannon: Cannonball tower fires a large cannonball in a high arc.  Attack rate is halved, but damage is doubled.  The tower can shoot over obstacles.  Enemies are stunned as they get a cannonball to the head.
  • Huntress uber sphere: Poison mist: Poison dart tower shoots a grenade which explodes into a poisonous mist.  Enemies take damage as long as they are in the area.

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@Factions quote:

% chance for skyguard tower to do X% additional as physical

Rather then this LEAVE SKYGUARD  ALONE.

DO this!  Huntress Dart tower Should Have A Switch the player can Hit to Make it only Fire at only air Units.

Giving the game Both AA Psyical and Magic.

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@Gothraga quote:


@Factions quote:

% chance for skyguard tower to do X% additional as physical

Rather then this LEAVE SKYGUARD  ALONE.

DO this!  Huntress Dart tower Should Have A Switch the player can Hit to Make it only Fire at only air Units.

Giving the game Both AA Psyical and Magic.

Uuuuhhh....what? Aren't both magical towers? That either makes no sense or I'm crazy.

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We need a full retard button.  

As skill or a beer and which for an emergency short. Of time towers can be turned to ludicrous speed.

Then make it possible for baseline stats and metrics to be modified through either additional expenditures and boosting

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Make Serenity boost tower hp by 100% also giving 10% damage reduction as well as heroes in vicinity with medium slot.  - Completly removing OP hero heal immortality squires / all classes. increase life steal stat a little more, increase regen stat a little more.

Give boost aura a large slot to make it benefit heroes for huge AP Dps boosts or Towers.

lenghten range on poison dart tower 25%. but not width.

Make apprentice barrier uber that moutns a turret to it and allows you to shoot shockwaves that push enemys back but uses 1dhp per bullet cannot be repaired and cost 200 mana to place.


make magic barriers strong in phys resist lanes and blockades strong in magic resist lanes.




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@steelsoldier quote:

I have a weird idea regarding a Squire wacking a tower in order to increase it´s Defense Speed.

Basically this would only effect one tower and it would require a Squire to hit the tower with his normal auto attack, it could stack up to 2-3 times, once the squire stops hitting the tower, the defense speed bonus starts dropping till it reaches 0.

This could have other applications besides defense speed like increasing range for example but it demands that the player dedicates himself to that particular turret/turrets.


Created a gif to demonstrate it, the Squire hits 2 times, which makes the turret attack at a much faster rate, notice how the fire rate goes down as soon as the squire stops hitting it.

d1nDxyw.gif


There are SO MANY awesome ideas in this thread, and I can't wait to digest them all. It may be because I'm a visual person, but this caught my eye and the idea is pretty freak'n sweet. 

Blacksmith and I will be pouring through these early next week, but I took a quick glance today on the weekend and feel amped to go through them. KEEP 'EM COMING! :) 

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If Defense Speed is put back into the game, then the three suggestions to see it would be a gain every character level (in the range of +2 - +8), skill spheres, and defense level upgrades. For example the cannon ball tower at tier 1 has an attack speed of 2.0 as we all know, at tier 5 maybe its 1.25 or 1.5 for its attack speed?

The skill spheres will for attack speed need to be buffed to provide more of a boost to be considered useful, as using a defense power sphere gives much much bigger increase over the defense speed spheres.

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[[59260,users]] would it be possible to give us your goals in regards to customization? It is much easier to brainstorm ideas when we have a clear target, and simply have to make sure our ideas conform with 2 or 3 key objectives.


With that being said, I am going to focus largely on what I think the key objectives should be for skill spheres - horizontal customization and the ability to create unique combos.


Items in their current state alter the player vertically; you get more of this or that with each piece, and it grows as the iPWR and tiers increase (there are a few exceptions to this - cannon stun comes to mind). If items are going to stay vertically inclined (and I think they should, as it gives a true feeling of power and progression as you beat harder difficulties), then skill spheres should enhance the player horizontally.


Let us pretend that I have a squire, and I want him to be able to combo with my friend the apprentice. I purchase a skill sphere that alters the way his cannon fires. instead of being single target dps it acts more like artillery, and fires long distance slugs at ground targets only in a small circular area at, say, 6000 range.  Now we can place this tower high up in the trees and at all kinds of funky angles and positions. This is where the creative minds can determine what it does. It could stun the area for a few seconds and apply shatter to the apprentice's frozen enemies, or maybe it could be an oil bomb that lands just in range of his flameburst towers. Hell, maybe you only want the huntress to be able to combo oil with other classes. We don't know.


Now, from a developer's point of view, let us analyze the above scenario. We need new artwork, vfx, animations etc. to make this work. Is this something that you are willing to do, or do we need to focus our ideas on the resources that you already have? Again, we don't know.


I think that the best way to delve into the large task of customization is to lay out what is important to you so that as a group we can put forth more focused ideas, and have a much more productive conversation.


In my opinion, we should focus on horizontal spheres, as that is the most effective course to open up new ways of playing the game.






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D.S. isn't a "fun" stat since it was a required stat mainly due to target acquisition. I'm getting overwhelmed by Kobold and Goblin waves...God forbid there are pigs or orcs mixed in. My current cannons are shooting at 1/5 the speed they used to. In the same time period that a cannon acquires a target then shoots a target five times, I'm now getting a single shot. That's stupid. Why didn't you try leaving D.S. in the way it was when you added lane buffs and resistances? What's happening now isn't fun. This game/franchise used to be all about the fun. You weren't meant to hit a wall, more break through a wall. You know the wall is there but you need to figure out how to get through it. Now the wall is unbreachable (seemingly) and even if it is, it's not worth the waiting game for the RNG Gods to reciprocate (at least for me).

You say you want to make "fun" and "optional" build through spheres yet I promise you any speed you put on spheres will become the new "required" spheres. At this point that what D.S. is. My main issue is that the solo game sucks right now. I don't want an easier solo game but I want to feel like I have a fighting chance. A faster D.S. allowed me to patrol several lanes because I can't be everywhere at once. I expect to work for my spoils but at the same time I expect to have something to show for it.


Why do you feel static D.S. gains per level wouldn't be fun. As a player gets more powerful so do his/her defenses. It's natural progression man!!! It's not reliant on some random/hope/chance system and I at least know I will get some reward for my time. Simply giving us bigger hits on slower towers is meaningless. If a cannon takes 1.67 seconds to acquire and target and shoot that target, what difference does it make how hard it hits (to a certain point)? If a cannon hits for 2000 or 10000 it can still get overwhelmed really fast because it can't hit fast enough. Personally I'm a fan of some static speed gains through gaining levels and maybe some secondary options down the road (like spheres or item passives). 

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@Tigorus quote:

I'm getting overwhelmed by Kobold and Goblin waves...God forbid there are pigs or orcs mixed in. My current cannons are shooting at 1/5 the speed they used to. In the same time period that a cannon acquires a target then shoots a target five times, I'm now getting a single shot. 

Why are you using cannonball towers, the game's only single-target ground defense, against large groups of enemies?  Almost any other defense would do a better job.  

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@tdb quote:
Why are you using cannonball towers, the game's only single-target ground defense, against large groups of enemies?  Almost any other defense would do a better job.  

Poison tower from the huntress? That is also single target. Cannonball towers are the only good option for magic resist lanes right now, since apparently all other popular towers are magic based. Sure you could use basic traps I guess.

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@Ryukashin quote: 

Poison tower from the huntress? That is also single target. Cannonball towers are the only good option for magic resist lanes right now, since apparently all other popular towers are magic based. Sure you could use basic traps I guess.

I concede that PDT isn't a true AoE tower.  It can shoot multiple targets at once, but it does the same total damage as against a single target.  Still, most defenses have some kind of area of effect.

My build for magic resist lanes has two explosive traps in front of a spike blockade.  Works wonders for goblin hordes.  There's also another cluster of traps at the approximate camping location of javelin throwers, which pre-damages the goblins and, with a few upgrades, may even kill them outright before they even reach the wall.  Three cannonballs and a total of four or five traps seems to work well.

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@tdb quote:


@Tigorus quote:

I'm getting overwhelmed by Kobold and Goblin waves...God forbid there are pigs or orcs mixed in. My current cannons are shooting at 1/5 the speed they used to. In the same time period that a cannon acquires a target then shoots a target five times, I'm now getting a single shot. 

Why are you using cannonball towers, the game's only single-target ground defense, against large groups of enemies?  Almost any other defense would do a better job.  

In magic resist lanes. I use Fire Ball towers and L.A.'s in Phys resist lanes. What else do you suggest for Magic Resist lanes?

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@Tigorus quote: 

In magic resist lanes. I use Fire Ball towers and L.A.'s in Phys resist lanes. What else do you suggest for Magic Resist lanes?

Explosive traps.  See my previous post for details.

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Towers right now only get more damage and health if you upgrade them. 

It would be cool to see them becoming even greater, if they would gain attack speed and a little bit more range with each upgrade. 

DD1 did this and DD2 could profit from that as well(it doesn't even need to be much, just a little bit of those 2 on each tower upgrade would feel much more satisfying).

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@Excuritas quote:

Towers right now only get more damage and health if you upgrade them. 

It would be cool to see them becoming even greater, if they would gain attack speed and a little bit more range with each upgrade. 

DD1 did this and DD2 could profit from that as well(it doesn't even need to be much, just a little bit of those 2 on each tower upgrade would feel much more satisfying).

Isn't upgrade already boosting the tower's range? Correct me if i'm wrong.

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