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demonickilr

Stop about the removal of Tower Speed

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Don't you guys see!? This game is so much more balanced now! No longer do people have to see the ol and boring LA and Geyser combo in every game now you can hack and slash your way to victory! Yes of course some people may complain about tower speed being removed, BUT REMEMBER! The tower speeds were making the towers very buggy! I think. So the best way to fix this game breaking bug was to remove tower speed entirely! Why spend the resources to recode some towers when we could just remove things and still make it seemingly balanced to play! Even better than having a balanced game, your setups now rely on STRATEGY! Of course this means having a bunch of utility towers slowing down or stunning your foes while you hack and slash away! Much funner then seeing your towers shoot like a machine gun across multiple enemies! I'm sure that this new players in the future will love this heavily strategic game where games last 2x longer then they have to!

So. Thank you trendy for taking away tower speeds, and making my dream of having this game be turned into Devil May Cry: Eternia come true!

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I don't understand those LA+Geyser combo by removing tower speed. With the new patch Loot&Survive they introduced "grounded" enemies. Those enemies can't be knocked up, so if you would only work with LA+Geyser combo you would loose very poorly since the grounded enemies are random and switch lanes every round.
Also before the wipe i really liked ballistas and canons from squire. Used them everytime, put some barricades in front of them, and some lighting traps in front of the barricades, a boost aura on the canon/ballista stack and an anti-air turret.
Now with the removal of tower speed I'm forced to play with towers they want me to play, Canon, barricades, Lightning, Anti-air, geyser and maybe blaze/explosive from huntress. The other towers are too weak in comparison or useless at all, yes u shouldn't use mage other then dps now lel.
With this tspeed removal they wanted us to use more different builds, but the opposite happened :x

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@Carrylex quote:

I don't understand those LA+Geyser combo by removing tower speed. With the new patch Loot&Survive they introduced "grounded" enemies. Those enemies can't be knocked up, so if you would only work with LA+Geyser combo you would loose very poorly since the grounded enemies are random and switch lanes every round.

Grounded would affect the geyser+skyguard combo.  Geyser+LA depends on the drench effect, not knockup.  However, there's the, um, tenacious trait, which grants enemies resistance against crowd control.  I think it's 15% on normal and 45% on hard.  I believe that will prevent the stun effect from happening.

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Well anyways with the removal of tspeed they made so much towers useless :p I don't have anything against no tspeed, but then buff some towers (apprentice all towers useless), Poisont dart, ballista and so on..

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@Carrylex quote:

Well anyways with the removal of tspeed they made so much towers useless :p I don't have anything against no tspeed, but then buff some towers (apprentice all towers useless), Poisont dart, ballista and so on..

It's true that a lot of things need massive retuning.  Uber Spheres, towers, probably pet abilities, XP curve, item power mechanics, etc...  I think it's pretty clear, though, that the game can be much more reasonably balanced in the long term with the removal of Defense Speed.  That stat was pure poison for the game's long-term health, though the short term definitely sucks without it.

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@Chappyy quote:

Can we not just have a teeeny tiny bit of DS added with each tower upgrade. 


Some towers do become faster (or slower, beware!) with upgrades. Though I believe right now only uber sphere-based towers have that trait.

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@demonickilr quote:

Stop about the removal of Tower Speed

no please dont stop. tower range and speed was always a dungeon defenders feature
it's sad that somebody cant balance their stuff and they have to cut off one of the main game features

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@Ryvius quote:

 tower range and speed was always a dungeon defenders feature

YES! This is one of the things that makes DD a one of a kind game. if i wanted static tower levels i would go play Defense grid.

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@demonickilr quote:

Don't you guys see!? This game is so much more balanced now! No longer do people have to see the ol and boring LA and Geyser combo in every game now you can hack and slash your way to victory! Yes of course some people may complain about tower speed being removed, BUT REMEMBER! The tower speeds were making the towers very buggy! I think. So the best way to fix this game breaking bug was to remove tower speed entirely! Why spend the resources to recode some towers when we could just remove things and still make it seemingly balanced to play! Even better than having a balanced game, your setups now rely on STRATEGY! Of course this means having a bunch of utility towers slowing down or stunning your foes while you hack and slash away! Much funner then seeing your towers shoot like a machine gun across multiple enemies! I'm sure that this new players in the future will love this heavily strategic game where games last 2x longer then they have to!

So. Thank you trendy for taking away tower speeds, and making my dream of having this game be turned into Devil May Cry: Eternia come true!

What people (namely you) want this game to be:

1) Place Defenses.

2) AFK.

Or another scenario:

1) Join random game.

2) Watch 1 person build.

3) G up.

4) AFK.

5) Get carried and get free loot.

Really guys???

This game after this patch is in a completely new and revamped state (in a very positive way) and all we want to do is complain about the lack of defense speed? How about play the game, get to where some of us are in progression, then formulate your opinions.

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I will say this, in an effort to be informative  :)

Speed is inherently difficult (almost impossible) to properly balance. It gets better and better the more of it you have (whereas most other attributes either stay the same or decrease in effectiveness the more of it you have) and as a result, you have one of a number of scenarios depending on the balance approach taken:

1) unrestricted, speed is generally superior to every other stat and people are pigeonholed into building speed over anything else because it's universally the best thing to raise

2) If a hard cap is placed on speed (some % haste), either everyone is again pigeonholed into capping it before adding any other stats if the cap is low, or creates a huge gap between the haves and have nots if the cap is very high, blending into scenario 1.

3) Arguably the best way to keep speed as a stat, make it out of unobtainium and make it either directly a rare thing, or make the value of a stat point so low that even collecting a lot of it doesn't dramatically alter things. In short, you make the stat mostly irrelevant, in which case, why bother having it?

It might seem lazy, but not having it does solve a lot of otherwise difficult to solve problems. I think it's also fair to note that DD is far from the only game with a speed stat, and I wouldn't call it a hallmark. Additionally, a lot of games these days are eliminating or severely limiting speed as a stat.

However, there's also a part of me that, having played so much DD1, got a lot of fun out of having an insane number of shots flying all over the map. It creates a sense of mayhem and death dealing that's hard to ignore. :D

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Agreed with Aes, and Alhanalem.


The game is so very fun right now, and is in such a better place after the wipe.


Onslaught Nightmare 4 with a ilvl 135 lvl 47 squire, 1 monk, 1 huntress and we had a blast, and came out with some awesome items. 

Game is a BLAST right now.

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@Pegasaur quote:

Aside from all other facets of this discussion... It was just plain fun to see streams of missiles

Hyper spear laser beam of DOOOOOMMMM!!!! Absolutely loved it in DD1.

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@Tristaris quote:

Agreed with Aes, and Alhanalem.


The game is so very fun right now, and is in such a better place after the wipe.


Onslaught Nightmare 4 with a ilvl 135 lvl 47 squire, 1 monk, 1 huntress and we had a blast, and came out with some awesome items. 

Game is a BLAST right now.

Unless you're playing solo...then not so fun. 5.9 fixed some things but they ninja'd normal free play Wyvern's Den. Now the timer's back and an Ogre, WTF? This game is in such a weird state with single player. While they reduced resistances, why are they even in easy and normal at all? I'm still hitting a brick wall solo and can't do hard mode or Betsy now on normal? Why is she in a free play map again? 

Defense speed is hurting the solo game bug time. I don't have an option to play with others a lot of the time. D.S. aloud me to be in more places because I wasn't losing defenses to kobold and goblin waves.  Try solo and see how fun it is.

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I played a huntress solo to the end of free play normal (except Betsy).  It was very rewarding to invent new strategies to overcome obstacles.  I never imagined poison dart towers were such effective barricades.

Now I've made a squire as well, and I'm murdering things in free play hard lilferoot forest.  Gotta introduce Betsy to my new cannonball towers at some point.

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@Alhanalem quote:However, there's also a part of me that, having played so much DD1, got a lot of fun out of having an insane number of shots flying all over the map. It creates a sense of mayhem and death dealing that's hard to ignore. :D

This.

That is why I am sad to see DS no longer be a thing ... though I'm trying to look on the bright side of things.

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i personally love not having speed anymore. I use the small spheres which keep my towers firing at 1.55s instead of 2 (yes it does make a difference). It makes the game a lot harder and makes you interact with the mobs instead of sitting afk. I hope they keep it this way.

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Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers? 

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@Power Crawler quote:

Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers? 

Definitely feel like this should have been the solution. The removal of a stat seem to be an extreme case scenario, in my opinion should not have been followed through.

Like you said: a soft cap, a max limit, scaling of other stats, and more could have been possible alternatives. It would be welcomed if it returned for many players and also anger at Trendy from those supporting its removal.

Honestly, I would love for it to return. [[5609,hashtags]]
If it doesn't, oh well. Guess I'll try out the next few patches and leave it behind when Diablo 3 - Season 4 starts.

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Because, any speed they throw in gear, you'll by default use it due to the nature of speed and how it trumps everything else.

It's boring, and if it comes back, should only be 1-2 per level as you level up passively, and that's it.

Once they fix the projectile towers to actually fire when they are supposed to, it'll fix a lot of the issues they are having. 

I've gotten into the 800 ilvl range with no speed, and the game has been more fun than ever and it's actually engaging now.

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@Power Crawler quote:

Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers?  

@JedHakuro quote:
@Power Crawler quote:

Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers? 

Definitely feel like this should have been the solution. The removal of a stat seem to be an extreme case scenario, in my opinion should not have been followed through.

Like you said: a soft cap, a max limit, scaling of other stats, and more could have been possible alternatives. It would be welcomed if it returned for many players and also anger at Trendy from those supporting its removal.

Honestly, I would love for it to return. [[5609,hashtags]]
If it doesn't, oh well. Guess I'll try out the next few patches and leave it behind when Diablo 3 - Season 4 starts.

While Speed does provide a visual cue and/or gauge relative power increases between two separate defenses, again, putting in place a soft cap, hard cap, max limit, or whatever terminology you want to use completely does nothing and accomplishes no end goal. 

If the cap was 200, everyone would get 200, then stack everything else. If you put a max limit of 1000 on gear, everyone would get that 1000, then stack everything else. Over time, this becomes virtually impossible to balance. Having LA's, Cannons, or Traps all firing within .10s or .05s COMPLETELY ELIMINATES TOWER ROLES and makes EVERY tower viable in all situations. This means an LA can fill any role, in any lane, regardless of anything else. If you have a horde wave in onslaught, put down an LA. If you have a greenskin wave, put down an LA. If you have a kobold wave, put down an LA. See where I'm going here????

The removal of defense speed actually means you have to place your towers accordingly, understand each and every single lane regarding overall resistances, what types of mobs are going to spawn, along with what types of defenses provide the most synergy or the most bang for the buck. Now with that said, if Trendy wanted to give you 1 or 2 Speed per level all the way until 50, then I can safely say that would be a viable option because it would make the most sense (due to currently getting nothing while all other stats increase).

On another note, it's also funny you mention Summoner in DD1 because that pretty much broke the game with MU and made ALL balancing around all future maps automatically auto-include a summoner.

I'd rather you go back to Diablo than trash this game with old ideas. DD2 after this patch is in an amazing state, and I hope they continue with their vision rather than shift it back to where it was 2 or 3 patches ago.

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@Aesthetic quote:


@Power Crawler quote:

Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers?  

@JedHakuro quote:
@Power Crawler quote:

Tower speed is probably the best way to visually gauge your power increases with gear.   It's a very Engaging stat.  It's too crucial to remove.

Trendy should've just put soft caps in.  Or adjusted the scaling.  Going from a 3 second firing turret to a .2 second fire is INSANE.  Is was definitely cool, though.  But Why not adjust the numbers? 

Definitely feel like this should have been the solution. The removal of a stat seem to be an extreme case scenario, in my opinion should not have been followed through.

Like you said: a soft cap, a max limit, scaling of other stats, and more could have been possible alternatives. It would be welcomed if it returned for many players and also anger at Trendy from those supporting its removal.

Honestly, I would love for it to return. [[5609,hashtags]]
If it doesn't, oh well. Guess I'll try out the next few patches and leave it behind when Diablo 3 - Season 4 starts.

While Speed does provide a visual cue and/or gauge relative power increases between two separate defenses, again, putting in place a soft cap, hard cap, max limit, or whatever terminology you want to use completely does nothing and accomplishes no end goal. 

If the cap was 200, everyone would get 200, then stack everything else. If you put a max limit of 1000 on gear, everyone would get that 1000, then stack everything else. Over time, this becomes virtually impossible to balance. Having LA's, Cannons, or Traps all firing within .10s or .05s COMPLETELY ELIMINATES TOWER ROLES and makes EVERY tower viable in all situations. This means an LA can fill any role, in any lane, regardless of anything else. If you have a horde wave in onslaught, put down an LA. If you have a greenskin wave, put down an LA. If you have a kobold wave, put down an LA. See where I'm going here????

The removal of defense speed actually means you have to place your towers accordingly, understand each and every single lane regarding overall resistances, what types of mobs are going to spawn, along with what types of defenses provide the most synergy or the most bang for the buck. Now with that said, if Trendy wanted to give you 1 or 2 Speed per level all the way until 50, then I can safely say that would be a viable option because it would make the most sense (due to currently getting nothing while all other stats increase).

On another note, it's also funny you mention Summoner in DD1 because that pretty much broke the game with MU and made ALL balancing around all future maps automatically auto-include a summoner.

I'd rather you go back to Diablo than trash this game with old ideas. DD2 after this patch is in an amazing state, and I hope they continue with their vision rather than shift it back to where it was 2 or 3 patches ago.

I guess I'm not following your logic.   There are many ways to work around the side effects you mentioned Without Removing Tower Speed.

The only reason speed is stacked over everything is because Trendy has programmed it that way.  They could adjust the ratios so One point of speed is Less effective or equal to One Point of Defense Power.   It's just maths.  Or let's say where 500 speed might have given you 100% faster firing, it could be changed to only 50% faster by ratios.  We can all agree geyser with a .1 second recharge time was pretty crazy

Also, i'm not sure how you think defense speed nullifies tower strategy and tower diversity.

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