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Ninja_Kero

Things that make this a mess right now

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Let's jump right into it. Item Power for one, is now making item drops less fun than it ought to be. Most of the time, a high item power item is in actuality, garbage, and fairly useless. However, you need it to get ahead. Most of the time, players are presented with two options: Increase item power, but adopt much weaker bonuses or useless stats, and be allowed into the next area. Or. Lower your item power, stay where you are. But actually be more effective at playing the game normally.


Add in that it's now balanced so that everyone has to work like a dog to survive, and pretty much requires everyone to be on a dps in many cases, and you have a bunch of players in bad gear incapable of fighting in the levels they reach. Quite the opposite of what was intended. I'm seeing TONS of people just going straight dps and joining matches, praying for a builder, and lots of maps people leave repeatedly to find one.


Topping this, certain types of builders are far more effective at actually winning matches than others, so you have to wait on those, or you'll lose anyway. Case in point, squire.


Criticals are too rng to be used in builds usually, especially with towers being so slow. Unless invested heavily in, which of course, is a problem further compounded by ip restrictions.


On finding a rare-ish drop, I usually find myself being disgruntled because I have either dropped my ip for good stats, or raised it at the cost of strength. I'm not stronger, nor do I feel stronger. It's so pointless that people have started making IP sets that they wear to what they want to play, then put on something appropriate of much lower ip, because they'd never win with the ip set they had on, specialized or not, just because the stat arrangements plus bonuses are terrible. Then they finish changing clothes, place the towers, then have to change again to handle things with their dps. >_> Meanwhile another issue is not being able to get exp as a builder because not working like a dog as a dps usually means you lose even if you do build for the map.


I came here to relax on a tower defense. Now I can see why they added i for inventory instead of throne emotes. You never get to just relax and watch your towers wreck things, and you spend half the time in your inventory swapping gear and orbs and heroes just to get ready every match.


Well, I guess we're back to Dungeon Defenders Eternity.


To top all of it, now we also have to pay 450 gems to have more than 6 heroes created. Per hero. I'm pretty sure that should be bought with gold, not gems. Gems are for cosmetic things, not for having unrestricted play. Even bags are sold past a certain amount, where everyone feels like they have more than plenty. We can't even have a dps of each hero plus tower maker, let alone a specialist of any kind.


What is this even.


What are some fixes we can push for?


For one, I think purple/orange items should have at least a little more ip. Atm their side bonuses don't match with their ip. Also, some dialing back on monsters in early play at least. Folks have been comparing the leveling grind to climbing out of hades.

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They seem to be pushing for everyone to mostly be a hybrid, with the removal of defense speed and having crit statistics be sub-par (leaving you hoping for defense power/defense health on every single item), so with that in mind, the best they could do would be making critical not horrible and especially make it so that the primary stat of all armors isn't defense.


Not everyone is building a Squire tank character, Trendy.. if many at all.

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This whole post feels wrong and like so much of what is truly the issue with this patch: the players. Are there bugs and balance issues? Sure. But they're hardly game breaking and at the rate they hotfix things, fading quickly. So what is wrong with the players? You say it yourself by stating they join games they aren't geared for, and don't have the ability to build. Why? Sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn is true answer. Add in players power leveling (levels do little for you aside from spheres and fusing at 34) on Easy Betsy while never learning the game, then 'thinking' they're high level so they should be able to do harder content. Wrong.

Item power an issue? Make friends and start a private match. No restrictions there. Don't want to do this? Then have a set of gear for ipwr check and change to your most effective gear once inside the match. It takes 10 seconds at most. A perfect system? Hardly, but with you already describing the player base as essentially leeches, what do you think would happen without such a system? I just don't understand where you're going here. Good players have no issue with any of this, or getting appropriate gear, so where is the variable in said scenario?

Criticals too RNG? RNG is kind of the point of a % chance. This said, it's easy to get to 20% crit rate with minimal effort. Does it benefit every defense the same? No. Is it valuable? Hell yeah, especially early in the waves. On my Monk I put down LAs that I don't even upgrade merely because the base level 30 mana aura has some damage but with crit dmg twice as high as the normal attack. At a .9 second attack rate with large AOE, it's anything but too RNG. Same with balloons, cannons, skyguards, or anything else sub 2 second attack rate.

You want a game where your towers wreck things regardless of strategy, placement, and proper gearing. Got it. What a fun game that is, with real staying power. Sorry to be an ass, but there are some of us that want the game with have, albeit with a few tweaks. I WANT to work for my wins. I WANT to be rewarded for creative and strategic play. My little 3 man group (the two of which I met through this DD2 patch) is completing maps well above our ipwr lvl. It feels rewarding. Like we really earned the win, not had it given to us, from standing around watching OP towers do everything, even if poorly placed.

I really feel I'm wasting my time typing the above. I have a couple of other posts scattered about with some tips. Perhaps start there. There are a handful of us enjoying the game and mastering the content and build strategies. Then there is a vocal segment that instead of placing any blame on their own behaviors, points at the game difficulty and developers. If some of us can do it, why can't you? Step up to the plate fellas, and embrace the challenge. Adapt, learn, and overcome.

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@Snakadaktal quote:

This whole post feels wrong and like so much of what is truly the issue with this patch: the players. Are there bugs and balance issues? Sure. But they're hardly game breaking and at the rate they hotfix things, fading quickly. So what is wrong with the players? You say it yourself by stating they join games they aren't geared for, and don't have the ability to build. Why? Sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn is true answer. Add in players power leveling (levels do little for you aside from spheres and fusing at 34) on Easy Betsy while never learning the game, then 'thinking' they're high level so they should be able to do harder content. Wrong.

...

I really feel I'm wasting my time typing the above. I have a couple of other posts scattered about with some tips. Perhaps start there. There are a handful of us enjoying the game and mastering the content and build strategies. Then there is a vocal segment that instead of placing any blame on their own behaviors, points at the game difficulty and developers. If some of us can do it, why can't you? Step up to the plate fellas, and embrace the challenge. Adapt, learn, and overcome.

I agree with you on adapting to changes in gameplay and this comes with a game being developed that both the developers and players are happy with. Although your thoughts do not come on deaf ears, there are many players who would like to play the game in their own way: Towers only, hybrid, DPS AP builds, etcetera.

DD1, albeit broken in many stats and ways, had many people trying out tower builds that required strategic placement of towers and walls to overcome. There is strategy to placing towers down that can be tweaked and refined constantly. In DD2, there were combinations that came into play that were only made possible because of Defense Speed and yes, it broke the game in many areas (such as electric auras and geyses), but that is where player feedback and developer changes come into play.

Although many people are adapting to new changes, a part of the heart that was Dungeon Defenders was lost when a force to go into Hybrid builds was released. Many players like to be tactical in a sense and let their towers do the dirty work while they sit back and monitor the situation. Needless to say, the Summoner was my favorite class in DD1 as it provided a support role while my teammates built DPS Fighters/Tanks in the original. Even in DD2 during pre-wipe, I played a high DPS Huntress with stuns and repair speed while my team utilized tanks to hold lanes as my towers provided support.

The better idea is to create a game where the "RPG" aspect that Trendy has created stays that way. Where we're allowed, both you and I, to play to our favorite strengths and allow for different builds to flourish in a way where neither is inhibited by preferences.

Whether or not, we get there is by giving constant feedback and a portion of the community has voiced their discontent with Defense Speed's removal from the game. Sure my side of the argument should be less "bitter" in their disapproval, but like your opinion in adapting to the game, it's their opinion to have it as is.

P.S. If anywhere it sounded like it was offensive in anyway, I apologize. Just trying to shed light on what some members of the community believed.

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Hmm, checked out your posts where you offer advice.  What difficulty was in mind when giving it?

Currently I'm at IPWR 190-200 with my characters (1500 DP on builders & 1500 DH on squire barricader) and I'm having trouble graduating liferoot endgame hard.  What'd you do past that?  Nightmare 1 even on dragonfall bazaar is way too difficult.  Currently my most successful try was huntress explosive trap spam for magic res lane with barricade tanking (you advise killing things before they reach this but... how do you kill orcs/drakin by then?) and LSAs in magic res lane with 2 balloons for clearing trash and of course, a barricade.  I tank with squire under a serenidy aura in the double-lane, and a friend "handles" the other lane with monk.  Balancing the DU for effective LSA damage and AoE is difficult...

Have you gotten past this hump right before nightmare mode?  How'd you do it?  I even tried the onslaught that has 195-230 IPWR gear in the tooltip but just quit after round 5 was done since EVERYTHING dropping was lv46 still and same ipwr as liferoot endgame hard

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@Pachipachio quote:

Hmm, checked out your posts where you offer advice.  What difficulty was in mind when giving it?

Currently I'm at IPWR 190-200 with my characters (1500 DP on builders & 1500 DH on squire barricader) and I'm having trouble graduating liferoot endgame hard.  What'd you do past that?  Nightmare 1 even on dragonfall bazaar is way too difficult.  Currently my most successful try was huntress explosive trap spam for magic res lane with barricade tanking (you advise killing things before they reach this but... how do you kill orcs/drakin by then?) and LSAs in magic res lane with 2 balloons for clearing trash and of course, a barricade.  I tank with squire under a serenidy aura in the double-lane, and a friend "handles" the other lane with monk.  Balancing the DU for effective LSA damage and AoE is difficult...

Have you gotten past this hump right before nightmare mode?  How'd you do it?  I even tried the onslaught that has 195-230 IPWR gear in the tooltip but just quit after round 5 was done since EVERYTHING dropping was lv46 still and same ipwr as liferoot endgame hard

I haven't tried to solo NM yet, but Imagine I could on certain maps if resist lane fishing. Mostly however I play with 2 other very good players. Short of troll blood scaling, not much content has given us issue, well above our ipwr levels. We did our first Liferoot NM completion with me at 140ish power squire and sub 100 monk/huntress, last night when I hit 50. First try completion, with literally no challenge to it at all. They run DPS apprentices, neither of which were 50 on our NM completion. I imagine we'll down NM 3 today when we get to it.

As for solo, those suggestions in one of my posts, were for Liferoot Hard. Haven't solo'd or even tried, anything higher than that. The biggest challenge in doing so is the bug of losing your mini-map. I can't easily see what stragglers get through. As for Drakins and such, they're slow. Geysers and balloon kill boxes will generally take them out, with minimal response on my part. When I need to, I'm always using the +400 move speed medium sphere. Generally a quick taunt, jump over the mobs heads, and push them back through kill box is all it takes. If they're not grounded you can push them even easier. Mind you, this is on a builder character, as I have all the builders, while friends have the fancy 50k mana bomb dps characters.

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@JedHakuro quote:


@Snakadaktal quote:

This whole post feels wrong and like so much of what is truly the issue with this patch: the players. Are there bugs and balance issues? Sure. But they're hardly game breaking and at the rate they hotfix things, fading quickly. So what is wrong with the players? You say it yourself by stating they join games they aren't geared for, and don't have the ability to build. Why? Sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn is true answer. Add in players power leveling (levels do little for you aside from spheres and fusing at 34) on Easy Betsy while never learning the game, then 'thinking' they're high level so they should be able to do harder content. Wrong.

...

I really feel I'm wasting my time typing the above. I have a couple of other posts scattered about with some tips. Perhaps start there. There are a handful of us enjoying the game and mastering the content and build strategies. Then there is a vocal segment that instead of placing any blame on their own behaviors, points at the game difficulty and developers. If some of us can do it, why can't you? Step up to the plate fellas, and embrace the challenge. Adapt, learn, and overcome.

I agree with you on adapting to changes in gameplay and this comes with a game being developed that both the developers and players are happy with. Although your thoughts do not come on deaf ears, there are many players who would like to play the game in their own way: Towers only, hybrid, DPS AP builds, etcetera.

DD1, albeit broken in many stats and ways, had many people trying out tower builds that required strategic placement of towers and walls to overcome. There is strategy to placing towers down that can be tweaked and refined constantly. In DD2, there were combinations that came into play that were only made possible because of Defense Speed and yes, it broke the game in many areas (such as electric auras and geyses), but that is where player feedback and developer changes come into play.

Although many people are adapting to new changes, a part of the heart that was Dungeon Defenders was lost when a force to go into Hybrid builds was released. Many players like to be tactical in a sense and let their towers do the dirty work while they sit back and monitor the situation. Needless to say, the Summoner was my favorite class in DD1 as it provided a support role while my teammates built DPS Fighters/Tanks in the original. Even in DD2 during pre-wipe, I played a high DPS Huntress with stuns and repair speed while my team utilized tanks to hold lanes as my towers provided support.

The better idea is to create a game where the "RPG" aspect that Trendy has created stays that way. Where we're allowed, both you and I, to play to our favorite strengths and allow for different builds to flourish in a way where neither is inhibited by preferences.

Whether or not, we get there is by giving constant feedback and a portion of the community has voiced their discontent with Defense Speed's removal from the game. Sure my side of the argument should be less "bitter" in their disapproval, but like your opinion in adapting to the game, it's their opinion to have it as is.

P.S. If anywhere it sounded like it was offensive in anyway, I apologize. Just trying to shed light on what some members of the community believed.

All very well said, Jed. I suppose my thoughts are that the game encourages a ton of build ways now. Before it didn't. DPS characters were nearly useless, especially late game. There wasn't a single map I couldn't solo with just flame towers. Nothing else. 100% flame towers, even hard incursion, Betsy. 

How do we feel the current patch has provided less ways to play? Before you had LSA, Flames, and to some degree cannons. As well you had the forced crutch that was LA/Geysers until you were really well geared and things died without CC.

So now you have versatile builds, with every hero class bringing at least one very effective defense item, and all offering extremely viable hero DPS builds. As well you have a plethora of difficulty levels with which to play them. The issue at hand is people want to graduate to end game content with no effort. Entitlement comes to mind.

I was just semi-afk in a Betsy map leveling an alt while eating dinner. A guy joined, throwing a fit about exp being broken, to which I asked why he needed levels so badly. He replied something to the effect of "so I can do harder content, because this is boring." To which I said "harder content gives good exp, albeit with a longer completion time. However you get quality loot, which will help your stats more than levels." Then I got called a "f**" and well, you can imagine how productive the rest of the conversation was.

I guess my larger point is a player should feel free to play however they want. If you make bad choices though, should they be rewarded? I don't feel we should trivialize content so people can half-ass their way through a game. It already has easy modes for this.

I do feel the game can use a plenty of tweaks, as well as bug fixes, but you need look no further than the front page for the very vocal community to tell you the game is unplayable and broken. We both know that isn't true, and that's the message I am trying to share.

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@Snakadaktal quote:

I haven't tried to solo NM yet, but Imagine I could on certain maps if resist lane fishing. Mostly however I play with 2 other very good players. Short of troll blood scaling, not much content has given us issue, well above our ipwr levels. We did our first Liferoot NM completion with me at 140ish power squire and sub 100 monk/huntress, last night when I hit 50. First try completion, with literally no challenge to it at all. They run DPS apprentices, neither of which were 50 on our NM completion. I imagine we'll down NM 3 today when we get to it.

As for solo, those suggestions in one of my posts, were for Liferoot Hard. Haven't solo'd or even tried, anything higher than that. The biggest challenge in doing so is the bug of losing your mini-map. I can't easily see what stragglers get through. As for Drakins and such, they're slow. Geysers and balloon kill boxes will generally take them out, with minimal response on my part. When I need to, I'm always using the +400 move speed medium sphere. Generally a quick taunt, jump over the mobs heads, and push them back through kill box is all it takes. If they're not grounded you can push them even easier. Mind you, this is on a builder character, as I have all the builders, while friends have the fancy 50k mana bomb dps characters.

Nvm that advice then, I thought you were talking in generalities.  Free play is something else entirely

But you did a 264 IPWR map with <140 IPWR characters not even 50 yet?  Endgame Liferoot Forest Nightmare I is what you did with DPS apprentices...?

I am so incredulous of this I can't even


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Hes mixing up his terms. We did Endgame Liferoot Hard with minimal effort. Liferoot NM we can reliably get the first boss down.

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@Pachipachio quote:


@Snakadaktal quote:

I haven't tried to solo NM yet, but Imagine I could on certain maps if resist lane fishing. Mostly however I play with 2 other very good players. Short of troll blood scaling, not much content has given us issue, well above our ipwr levels. We did our first Liferoot NM completion with me at 140ish power squire and sub 100 monk/huntress, last night when I hit 50. First try completion, with literally no challenge to it at all. They run DPS apprentices, neither of which were 50 on our NM completion. I imagine we'll down NM 3 today when we get to it.

As for solo, those suggestions in one of my posts, were for Liferoot Hard. Haven't solo'd or even tried, anything higher than that. The biggest challenge in doing so is the bug of losing your mini-map. I can't easily see what stragglers get through. As for Drakins and such, they're slow. Geysers and balloon kill boxes will generally take them out, with minimal response on my part. When I need to, I'm always using the +400 move speed medium sphere. Generally a quick taunt, jump over the mobs heads, and push them back through kill box is all it takes. If they're not grounded you can push them even easier. Mind you, this is on a builder character, as I have all the builders, while friends have the fancy 50k mana bomb dps characters.

Nvm that advice then, I thought you were talking in generalities.  Free play is something else entirely

But you did a 264 IPWR map with <140 IPWR characters not even 50 yet?  Endgame Liferoot Forest Nightmare I is what you did with DPS apprentices...?

I am so incredulous of this I can't even


Yes. We breezed through NM1 last night, with no exploits or anything whack at all. Myself with the above stated builder levels- albeit very proper gear and stats (shooting for 20% crit with substantial crit dmg). Hecate's Lover on his at the time sub 50 DPS apprentice, and rper_rrkinia on his 49 DPS apprentice. The held side lines, I held mid, and it was no issue whatsoever. Hopefully taking down NM3 tonight, just waiting for rper to get home from work.


The key for us has just been utilizing kill boxes and having an active hero keep them there.

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@Snakadaktal quote:


Yes. We breezed through NM1 last night, with no exploits or anything whack at all. Myself with the above stated builder levels- albeit very proper gear and stats (shooting for 20% crit with substantial crit dmg). Hecate's Lover on his at the time sub 50 DPS apprentice, and rper_rrkinia on his 49 DPS apprentice. The held side lines, I held mid, and it was no issue whatsoever. Hopefully taking down NM3 tonight, just waiting for rper to get home from work.


The key for us has just been utilizing kill boxes and having an active hero keep them there.

Wow. 

That's crazy.  Tried it myself because maybe a ***ton more stats+ LSAs would do the trick but nope, can't juggle two lanes, let alone three.  I guess if I could multiply myself thrice and squire tank everything in my traps it'd be ok?  No idea how your apprentice DPS friends <50 were able to keep things there for long.  And with 140 IPWR squire and 100 huntress they'd have to keep things there for a long time >.>;;


Calling total BS on you successfully pulling off a solo NM run even if you fish for perfect resists >.> 140 IPWR squire and <100 IPWR huntress/monk? lol


The solo grind is real, at 190 IPWR I have to resort to really cheap tactics to gear up.  Idk if I really agree with your whiteknighting of the state of things that just got rolled out, even though I'm a huge whiteknight of DD2

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@Snakadaktal quote:


@JedHakuro quote:


@Snakadaktal quote:

This whole post feels wrong and like so much of what is truly the issue with this patch: the players. Are there bugs and balance issues? Sure. But they're hardly game breaking and at the rate they hotfix things, fading quickly. So what is wrong with the players? You say it yourself by stating they join games they aren't geared for, and don't have the ability to build. Why? Sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn is true answer. Add in players power leveling (levels do little for you aside from spheres and fusing at 34) on Easy Betsy while never learning the game, then 'thinking' they're high level so they should be able to do harder content. Wrong.

...

I really feel I'm wasting my time typing the above. I have a couple of other posts scattered about with some tips. Perhaps start there. There are a handful of us enjoying the game and mastering the content and build strategies. Then there is a vocal segment that instead of placing any blame on their own behaviors, points at the game difficulty and developers. If some of us can do it, why can't you? Step up to the plate fellas, and embrace the challenge. Adapt, learn, and overcome.

I agree with you on adapting to changes in gameplay and this comes with a game being developed that both the developers and players are happy with. Although your thoughts do not come on deaf ears, there are many players who would like to play the game in their own way: Towers only, hybrid, DPS AP builds, etcetera.

...

The better idea is to create a game where the "RPG" aspect that Trendy has created stays that way. Where we're allowed, both you and I, to play to our favorite strengths and allow for different builds to flourish in a way where neither is inhibited by preferences.

Whether or not, we get there is by giving constant feedback and a portion of the community has voiced their discontent with Defense Speed's removal from the game. Sure my side of the argument should be less "bitter" in their disapproval, but like your opinion in adapting to the game, it's their opinion to have it as is.

P.S. If anywhere it sounded like it was offensive in anyway, I apologize. Just trying to shed light on what some members of the community believed.

All very well said, Jed. I suppose my thoughts are that the game encourages a ton of build ways now. Before it didn't. DPS characters were nearly useless, especially late game. There wasn't a single map I couldn't solo with just flame towers. Nothing else. 100% flame towers, even hard incursion, Betsy. 

How do we feel the current patch has provided less ways to play? Before you had LSA, Flames, and to some degree cannons. As well you had the forced crutch that was LA/Geysers until you were really well geared and things died without CC.

So now you have versatile builds, with every hero class bringing at least one very effective defense item, and all offering extremely viable hero DPS builds. As well you have a plethora of difficulty levels with which to play them. The issue at hand is people want to graduate to end game content with no effort. Entitlement comes to mind.

I was just semi-afk in a Betsy map leveling an alt while eating dinner. A guy joined, throwing a fit about exp being broken, to which I asked why he needed levels so badly. He replied something to the effect of "so I can do harder content, because this is boring." To which I said "harder content gives good exp, albeit with a longer completion time. However you get quality loot, which will help your stats more than levels." Then I got called a "f**" and well, you can imagine how productive the rest of the conversation was.

I guess my larger point is a player should feel free to play however they want. If you make bad choices though, should they be rewarded? I don't feel we should trivialize content so people can half-ass their way through a game. It already has easy modes for this.

I do feel the game can use a plenty of tweaks, as well as bug fixes, but you need look no further than the front page for the very vocal community to tell you the game is unplayable and broken. We both know that isn't true, and that's the message I am trying to share.

Well put and you're right. The game is allowing for more diverse builds and characters can carry their own. Of course we must wait for some bug fixes and tweaks to allow for the classes to shine again.

Although people should not easily get to 50 or max level in say 4-6 hours on their first character (throwing Diablo 3 under the bus here), they should not also feel stagnated either. What DD1 and Diablo 3, surprisingly, did well was it felt like progress was being made at each level and at any moment there was an "upgrade" around the corner.

What I believe is happening, which is partly the fault of Trendy and the majority of gamers, is a miscommunication and misinterpretation of iPWR and the current leveling curve. As a solo/duo player, I have been immune to this situation, but for many I believe that they're being pigeon-held on low-leveled maps vying for a small upgrade to allow them to do the next. Sure they could do solo, but many people want to play with others for many reasons (some impure as leeching and some pure as for the social aspect).

Is that good or bad? Well this game is not World of Warcraft or an MMO of any sorts. And it comes down to the view of Dungeon Defenders 2: is it or should it be a game where you spend hours farming and working hard for an upgrade (such as Destiny)? Or should it be a pick up and play for an hour adventure for a possible upgrade or diversity in items (such as Diablo 3)? That's really up to Trendy themselves to decide as they move past this patch. 

To be fair, I do enjoy trying out new strategies, especially for Liferoot Forest Hard. It's interesting to utilize Freeze towers in weird places and cannons in the most obscure of spots and realizing some of them work well while others don't. Am I now a bit more pro-active in defense? Yes, yes I am. And it's somewhat fun to me to run around smack people, but I do miss the laid back approach.

And the game should not be easy, I remember how hard end game was for DD1 with a tower build only classes. What I enjoy about DD2 is the way I can easily pick up a DPS build or AP build for whatever suits my needs. And knowing Trendy they'll give us difficulties worth pushing through later on as the game progresses. 

And I am sorry for the toxicity a lot of players have in the game at this moments, lets hope that Thursday's patch will rectify or at least satisfy these players as they return to the leveling their characters. As much as I enjoy the game, I do must admit that I have taken a break for the last few days as I am semi-frustrated with the leveling curve and RNGesus at the moment.

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@Nayru quote:

They seem to be pushing for everyone to mostly be a hybrid, with the removal of defense speed and having crit statistics be sub-par (leaving you hoping for defense power/defense health on every single item), so with that in mind, the best they could do would be making critical not horrible and especially make it so that the primary stat of all armors isn't defense.


Not everyone is building a Squire tank character, Trendy.. if many at all.


Basically yes. I go more in depth below though.

@Snakadaktal quote:

This whole post feels wrong and like so much of what is truly the issue with this patch: the players. Are there bugs and balance issues? Sure. But they're hardly game breaking and at the rate they hotfix things, fading quickly. So what is wrong with the players? You say it yourself by stating they join games they aren't geared for, and don't have the ability to build. Why? Sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn is true answer. Add in players power leveling (levels do little for you aside from spheres and fusing at 34) on Easy Betsy while never learning the game, then 'thinking' they're high level so they should be able to do harder content. Wrong.

Item power an issue? Make friends and start a private match. No restrictions there. Don't want to do this? Then have a set of gear for ipwr check and change to your most effective gear once inside the match. It takes 10 seconds at most. A perfect system? Hardly, but with you already describing the player base as essentially leeches, what do you think would happen without such a system? I just don't understand where you're going here. Good players have no issue with any of this, or getting appropriate gear, so where is the variable in said scenario?

Criticals too RNG? RNG is kind of the point of a % chance. This said, it's easy to get to 20% crit rate with minimal effort. Does it benefit every defense the same? No. Is it valuable? Hell yeah, especially early in the waves. On my Monk I put down LAs that I don't even upgrade merely because the base level 30 mana aura has some damage but with crit dmg twice as high as the normal attack. At a .9 second attack rate with large AOE, it's anything but too RNG. Same with balloons, cannons, skyguards, or anything else sub 2 second attack rate.

You want a game where your towers wreck things regardless of strategy, placement, and proper gearing. Got it. What a fun game that is, with real staying power. Sorry to be an ass, but there are some of us that want the game with have, albeit with a few tweaks. I WANT to work for my wins. I WANT to be rewarded for creative and strategic play. My little 3 man group (the two of which I met through this DD2 patch) is completing maps well above our ipwr lvl. It feels rewarding. Like we really earned the win, not had it given to us, from standing around watching OP towers do everything, even if poorly placed.

I really feel I'm wasting my time typing the above. I have a couple of other posts scattered about with some tips. Perhaps start there. There are a handful of us enjoying the game and mastering the content and build strategies. Then there is a vocal segment that instead of placing any blame on their own behaviors, points at the game difficulty and developers. If some of us can do it, why can't you? Step up to the plate fellas, and embrace the challenge. Adapt, learn, and overcome.

Oh dear. So... While I'm sure it's entertaining for yourself and everyone reading to see you argue with yourself, providing words for me, which you can then perform the 'perfect condemnation and argument against', I'll have to go ahead and correct you.

Considering you jumped the gun and all. Pole vaulted really.

Key points for sake of brevity:

Talking about a large amount of players doesn't necessarily include me in it, though as in many things, they may have a point in some things, and not so much in others. What is worrisome is that you're quick to condemn what you yourself say is many of the players and tell them to just get over it. I must remind you that this is a pre alpha we are play testing, to make sure that people will want to play the game. New players shouldn't have to 'just get over' uneven exp and ip slopes , and things that bother people like this, especially a vocal and not minor group, should be listened to. Well, if you want a successful game, anyways.

Writing it off as laziness and unwillingness to learn is extremely rude. I played through the levels legit, as I have in many games. Before it felt better than it is now. Stating that it feels less than fun, slow, and bumpy, yeah I'm gonna say it's so, because I care less about showing off how 'superior' I am than you seem to think you are. Even if you were superior? Still doesn't change that a large amount of players are not you, and are having trouble, and they matter too. More so since there are so many hearts and minds on the line than just your one.

Yes, Crit is too RNG. It would be better if instead of dismissing everything said, you'd dig deeper into why a person would bother to say it in the first place, and it being a common complaint. Reliable damage is well, reliable. Towers can let that pile of kobolds in when they shouldn't through an unlucky streak. Many players simply won't believe in it, and unless they invest in it with multiple items, compounded by the randomness  in both ip and general stats I mentioned and you conveniently ignored, they're going to cause issues. Important to note is that there isn't anywhere you see something like 'crit is most effective on these and these towers for this and this'. It's not posted anywhere, so there is even less belief in it. And even if it was posted, it would still require specific stat builds towards it that ip does not help. Which was part of the crit problem, another problem concerning ip and stats.

In one part of your rant, you decided to tell me that I wanted towers to wreck regardless of strategy. Which I find interesting, because you tell me this is what I want, even though it is clearly not the case, then proceed to write a whole section arguing against what words you just put out there. And are snooty about it. Okay then.

What I personally want is strategy, where if I place my towers properly, and don't spend pretty much all the green on just that lane to make it happen, I can pretty much ignore that lane as safe, aside from the occasional strong or special baddy or a ranger acting up. Do I want the game handed to me? No. I'll get myself strong enough to do it, and plan and place and upgrade well enough too. This being a tower defense game, and it being a thing in many tower defense games in general, especially the previous popular variants from trendy, I don't see that as being wrong. As a builder, yeah, I want to be able to sit in my throne, and let the dps do the work, while I relax and watch things die. I specialized for it after all, spent hours grinding, putting on orbs, picking the right gear, placing perfectly.

I do not want to do all that, then also have to mindlessly click spam on top of it for my win. It's not fun to me, it's actually kinda stupid. Some people may like it, I do not. I build. If it takes having the builder out giving buildings a bonus, so be it. Some people love dps, some do not, some hybrid. I think there should be sections of the game for all comers, and I dislike it being locked to everyone dpsing on all maps. I prefer to watch defenses for weaknesses, what flaws there were, decide what to build or up next to work around it, and tell others my findings. Click and spell spammers tend not to notice such things. I do, for my towers are my violent and beautiful children. I'm a lover not a fighter, basically. I come to this game to tower defense and relax. I have league or console games for ability use and running about.

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Anywho, Trendy has acknowledged some real issues with people simply being unable to get past areas without being told what to do. This thread, my first post at the end did ask for >ideas< on fixes, so let's try and get back to that.


For one, I think crits need adjustments. There was interesting info posted about crits being useful on specific towers, so included should be some tooltips or something somewhere informing players about the benefits of crit stats and how to use them, what to use them with. Possibly making crits do something other than 'moar damages' would be better. Such as changing crit damage to more crit chance bonus, and making say, critted ice freeze units. Trendy mentioned it before, but I think crit needs some rethinking or retooling regardless of moving forward. I simply suggest a bonus effect instead, since it's easier to grasp for many, a very real thing you can look to as a helpful effect you consider, and works on all your towers as opposed to making some of your other, usually slower towers useless compared to straight stats, as it is currently. Player perception is a key thing here, as critical FEELS like an uncomfortable, unknown, and dodgy choice for many players. Information and real, graspable bonuses are things to help with that. You want to feel like it's a good idea, not have random lanes randomly doing badly, randomly doing well, map wide. There was a previous post about the dangers of crits to look to as well.


Ip also needs an adjustment. So does leveling and exp rates. I had been looking forward to rates keeping up fairly with my ip rise, but it just... halted, no matter what I wore, and what I did, often enough.  With teams getting frustrated no matter what they tried or did, and I can inform you as fact that they tried extremely hard before getting frustrated and leaving. If you're of the ip level for the map, have a great tower setup, and try extremely hard, every last person, especially on normal or easy, you ought to never feel your time is a waste, and have your defenses crumble quite so quick. Player spirits not to be so thoroughly broken on basic game maps. It's crushing to experience and to see. I really think that easy and normal should have much much easier play, and the ramp between new difficulty tier zones, like normal to hard, ought to be a teensy bit more forgiving, so cheating isn't so well, enticing to many aside from the truly lazy. It establishes a dangerous and lingering habit to let it become the better option, especially early for a new player.


A cutscene toggle for things like betsy and chests after seeing it enough times. Dear god a toggle. I can't grind the last three maps without feeling like I lost some precious life seconds now every match XD. At least make it not repeat after replays. You just replayed. We know what's coming. Groundhog Day.


At some point a fix where the placed towers radii fits with the orbs and bonuses you're wearing, before you place it and hold shift, so you know the true range.


Attack speed, ranges, or tower acquisition speed need something. Or spawning as it is. Currently ranges are usually too short on most normal towers to deal with things like kobolds before they blow up on something or skip past. Add in drakin and javelins in every map on top of heavy packed kobolds, a random speeder thrown in, and it's another reason why every lane needs a babysitter who is an actual dps. Those are very high odds of monsters that have ways of destroying defenses. Now on every map. And, good to note that since the towers usually pick up front units, those will take the hits before the rangers or prepping kobolds do. When you toss in speedy or other kobold types, it gets much worse.

While fun for a challenge, I really don't think players need it quite so often and so heavily a problem on every lane, often at random, and even if you spend green on it it tends to mean more and more repair. At least with things like monster levels, mixes, and lots and lots of other things combined with towers as they are, it looks like a lot of things compound on other things to breed new flaws or empower old ones.

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So we're arguing about loot progression, and how difficult the most difficult mode of the game is?

I honestly find Daily missions unable to progress more of an issue than the issue of spending more time to progress loot.

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