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Squishydew

Item scaling punishes you for getting higher level loot.

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As the title says, item scaling currently feels wrong, I get punished for upgrading my 300 iPWR blue for a 350 iPWR green when helping lower leveled players, because it'll scale that 350iPWR green to be weaker then my 300iPWR blue.


this basically means that if i want to run lower level content, i have to keep an additional mythical/legendary tier itemset that is weaker then the set i actually have, which seems inconvenient and impractical.

I think this is an issue because it keeps you from feeling more powerful like leveling in RPGs should, at the very least items that exceed a map in power level should be equal to mythical tier.

Thoughts?

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I've ran lower tier stuff with higher tier gear and it hasn't really been a problem for me at all. I have noticed that as my gear progresses into higher levels, my towers in lower tier content improves a little but obviously not by much. I suppose that's the opposite of what you noticed though.


Conclusion? Don't waste your time saving sets unless you plan on using them on other characters. Even if improving my higher end gear didn't improve my lower end towers even the slightest and I might be "better off" with lower end gear, I wouldn't waste the time/space to save the gear. 

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The problem is that you switched from a blue to a green. So even though the ipwr is higher it is still a downgrade because of the rarity difference. Rarity is very important as well as the stats on the gear. 

When playing a game of this nature you can't just assume higher level = better. There are just too many factors to include especially this game that has "special stats" i.e. 10% chance on damage taken to electrocute nearby enemies. These extra stats are so crucial to a piece of gear that it can make gear with many many ipwr levels below other gear better. 

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@Vipe quote:

The problem is that you switched from a blue to a green. So even though the ipwr is higher it is still a downgrade because of the rarity difference. Rarity is very important as well as the stats on the gear. 

When playing a game of this nature you can't just assume higher level = better. There are just too many factors to include especially this game that has "special stats" i.e. 10% chance on damage taken to electrocute nearby enemies. These extra stats are so crucial to a piece of gear that it can make gear with many many ipwr levels below other gear better. 

This is exactly the issue i have with it, a higher ipwr green shouldn't be weaker then a blue just because of It's quality.

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It most definitely should be....what would be the point of getting low level blue/purp/legendary gear? as soon as you get to the next tier of ipwrs they would all be useless and that would just feel even more pointless and frustrating. Just knowing "oh yes! i got a legendary!....nvm its not max ipwr so i'll just switch it out with a white soon"

I mean yea there shouldn't be that big a difference between a 300 blue and a 350 green....in theory they should be about even and each developer will have their own opinions on whether the blue should be higher or the green, but in general a higher rarity 1 tier below a lower tier should be better if by only slightly

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Calm down guys, it hasn't even been a week since the update. The game is still in 'Pre-Alpha' for a reason, the developers are expecting bugs and unbalances to appear. The job that we have as Alpha testers is to discover then report about them. Complaining is a different issue though, there really is no reason to do so.

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I thought we were being calm?

Just discussing the reasoning behind how gearing works and the theory behind it

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@Vipe quote:

It most definitely should be....what would be the point of getting low level blue/purp/legendary gear? as soon as you get to the next tier of ipwrs they would all be useless and that would just feel even more pointless and frustrating. Just knowing "oh yes! i got a legendary!....nvm its not max ipwr so i'll just switch it out with a white soon"

I mean yea there shouldn't be that big a difference between a 300 blue and a 350 green....in theory they should be about even and each developer will have their own opinions on whether the blue should be higher or the green, but in general a higher rarity 1 tier below a lower tier should be better if by only slightly

Ohh, reading this sounded like a complaint, my bad if that wasn't the intention.

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I don't like the whole Item power system, I know what it's trying to achieve but seriously it has ruined every game I've played that uses the system. It comes to a point where Item power controls what you can and cant and people begin downgrading gear or even using the wrong stats just to get into a harder map, which is counter logical to me...Preforming worse to enter a harder map?? For example this is a screenshot i've just took A624EFB0AB2537B5BA8684C6F2E5151435131A44

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oh lol after re-reading that I can see how that can be see as angry.... I had no intention of it being like that

i was just trying to stress specific points, it appears to come off a point forceful....my bad ^.^

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@Aesthetics quote:

I don't like the whole Item power system, I know what it's trying to achieve but seriously it has ruined every game I've played that uses the system. It comes to a point where Item power controls what you can and cant and people begin downgrading gear or even using the wrong stats just to get into a harder map, which is counter logical to me...Preforming worse to enter a harder map?? For example this is a screenshot i've just took A624EFB0AB2537B5BA8684C6F2E5151435131A44

Well yea it can be really frustrating being on the cusp of going to a harder map, but not being able to because you have a slightly to low ipwr and you could get the neccessary ipwr if you equiped something that was far worse in stats but higher in ipwr. But you should be able to farm gear that has the required ipwr from the previous map or other scenarios, but you may have to farm to get something that is actually worth equiping. 

If you are trying to get to that 111 ipwr area keeping that ring is a must, but it appears you have green boots, chest, and helm and if any of those are low they would be good (and easy) items to replace. 

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Yeah I understand that but the issue is alot of people don't farm current maps to get good gear. They just pick something up equip it and move on. A level 28 common /green item should not be an improvement over a level 27 legendary but that's the way it at the moment. B859FD33F9EBEFC4684D82572E77F0480F291B3AI shouldn't gain +14 item power by equipping those green boots but if I wanted to move onto the next map or get that last few Item power to try my luck in onslaught or whatever I could equip those and go ahead. Which isnt fair on those people who are trying to succeed in onslaught mode with the correct gear. Legendaries hold no value apart from being the best at that current level, being replace by a green the next level is the wrong way around imho. A legendary should be a legendary you should be able to hold on to that great shiny item for at least a few levels, at the moment they are just another item.

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(though honestly, the difference between 300 and 350 IS significant..)

Frankly the problem is that iPwr is tied to location of obtaining gear, and not actual gear power.

What they need to do:

1) have iPwr from maps be a guildline for BASE rarity drop. (Base being what is expected minimum for the player to equip to complete the map)

2) Using base iPwr, determine what is the limit of stats and mods to be applied to gear for each rarity increase.

3) All mods have a formula to determine what's the additional iPwr based on their internal variance.

In short, for a 'iPwr 100' map, I'd expect to see: iPwr 90ish for commons, iPwr 100ish for uncommons (assuming uncommons is the baseline for map completion), iPwr 110ish for epic, iPwr 120ish for mythical, iPwr 130ish for legendary, or something to that extent.

Again, the formula should basically take into consideration that an iPwr 130 legendary may be obtained much earlier than an iPwr common, but by the time you get an iPwr 130 common, it should match the power of said iPwr 130 legendary.

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@Kyrn quote:

(though honestly, the difference between 300 and 350 IS significant..)

Frankly the problem is that iPwr is tied to location of obtaining gear, and not actual gear power.

What they need to do:

1) have iPwr from maps be a guildline for BASE rarity drop. (Base being what is expected minimum for the player to equip to complete the map)

2) Using base iPwr, determine what is the limit of stats and mods to be applied to gear for each rarity increase.

3) All mods have a formula to determine what's the additional iPwr based on their internal variance.

In short, for a 'iPwr 100' map, I'd expect to see: iPwr 90ish for commons, iPwr 100ish for uncommons (assuming uncommons is the baseline for map completion), iPwr 110ish for epic, iPwr 120ish for mythical, iPwr 130ish for legendary, or something to that extent.

Again, the formula should basically take into consideration that an iPwr 130 legendary may be obtained much earlier than an iPwr common, but by the time you get an iPwr 130 common, it should match the power of said iPwr 130 legendary.

I was going to disagree with you because that's not how I feel the gear should be designed around, but after really considering what you said and about how ipwr can limit what maps (and in turn what gear) you can do/obtain your solution seems to be quite effective.

What I don't like is increasing ipwr level based on rarity. 

First off increase rarity should imply its a better piece of gear even if the base stats are equal to something of the same ipwr so increasing it's ipwr as well is just redundant. 

Secondly you don't want to just give people gear that is so significantly better, just because they got lucky, that it makes the game too easy. For instance if you got a Legendary weapon (well rolled) with ipwr of 130 you might not replace it with another weapon until 200+ or with another legendary, just because having 3 abilities on the weapon is probably going to be better than some small stat increases. 

Lastly having all these different ipwrs for each rarity then makes finding out where upgrades are can be difficult. Lets say you have ipwr 200 and you go to a map and the common gear is ipwr 170...will that map have the neccassary upgrades? It's kinda hard to say. The developers would have to make it uniform across all levels, like in your example +10 ipwr for each rarity. But then in the end game well 10 ipwr isn't much and common gear will feel almost as strong as legendary, but if you 25 ipwr then in the early game greens and blues would be WAY too good.

I think this is a difficult topic on how to balance this...and maybe just getting replacing ipwr requirements with level requirements and maybe recommended minimum ipwr would be better? I'm not sure.

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I think the problem is that regardless of your argument about rarity tiers (which i understand is significant with small ipwr gaps), a legendary 100 item should not be stronger than a powerful 250 item when scaled. That is the problem with scaling, it brings them all to a lower level, so the rarity matters more than the base ipwr of the said items.

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I think there are just too many threads going about item power right now. Without meaning to sound blunt and sarcastic, you shouldn't need a thumbs up or thumbs down to tell you which piece of gear is better. Read the stats and take the piece that is better for your build. If this means increasing your overall item power more slowly (thus taking longer to get into higher level maps in group play), then that's a matter of patience/impatience more than anything. 

It's easy to blow through the campaign without blinking and then hitting a wall, becoming frustrated at the drop in leveling/gearing speed that you just became accustomed to for 20 levels. The game slowing down the farther you go isn't atypical in gaming, and often the norm. 

All of that said, they addressed progression on the Friday stream, saying they need to go back and look at XP/iPwr numbers for free play and beyond. The main focus of the patch was campaign, and now that campaign is where they want it to be, they can look at free play + numbers. 

It's easy/convenient to hide behind a "it's pre-alpha guys" line, but everything considered, a little more patience on the side of the playerbase as the devs push content could go a long way. We get so used to logging in to play the same game day in and day out as gamers, but we can do this in live games because they went live and made it out of alpha/beta for a reason. This game isn't a polished final version, and still in its infancy to a degree.

When there are roadblocks and speedbumps with your experience, just hop to a different game for a while, keep an eye on hotfixes, and come back when things improve if it's that bad for you. They are pushing hotfixes like crazy right now too, so keep the faith!

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[[90079,users]]

I'm thinking you missed the point of this thread. This isn't about getting further in progress, the gripe (and rightfully so) is that when the game is downscaling items it doesn't care what level the item is only what it's rarity is.

My suspicion is they just simply cut corners on coding to try and get things out as fast as possible and they never took into consideration the actual item level when calculating the downgrade values. Instead of doing it by a percentage they just said ok it's down to XYZ item power (which is the cap for this map) and it's ___ rarity use only those 2 factors to calc the values. 

This whole patch seems really half assed across the board.

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@Vipe quote:


@Kyrn quote:

(though honestly, the difference between 300 and 350 IS significant..)

Frankly the problem is that iPwr is tied to location of obtaining gear, and not actual gear power.

What they need to do:

1) have iPwr from maps be a guildline for BASE rarity drop. (Base being what is expected minimum for the player to equip to complete the map)

2) Using base iPwr, determine what is the limit of stats and mods to be applied to gear for each rarity increase.

3) All mods have a formula to determine what's the additional iPwr based on their internal variance.

In short, for a 'iPwr 100' map, I'd expect to see: iPwr 90ish for commons, iPwr 100ish for uncommons (assuming uncommons is the baseline for map completion), iPwr 110ish for epic, iPwr 120ish for mythical, iPwr 130ish for legendary, or something to that extent.

Again, the formula should basically take into consideration that an iPwr 130 legendary may be obtained much earlier than an iPwr common, but by the time you get an iPwr 130 common, it should match the power of said iPwr 130 legendary.

I was going to disagree with you because that's not how I feel the gear should be designed around, but after really considering what you said and about how ipwr can limit what maps (and in turn what gear) you can do/obtain your solution seems to be quite effective.

What I don't like is increasing ipwr level based on rarity. 

First off increase rarity should imply its a better piece of gear even if the base stats are equal to something of the same ipwr so increasing it's ipwr as well is just redundant. 

Secondly you don't want to just give people gear that is so significantly better, just because they got lucky, that it makes the game too easy. For instance if you got a Legendary weapon (well rolled) with ipwr of 130 you might not replace it with another weapon until 200+ or with another legendary, just because having 3 abilities on the weapon is probably going to be better than some small stat increases. 

Lastly having all these different ipwrs for each rarity then makes finding out where upgrades are can be difficult. Lets say you have ipwr 200 and you go to a map and the common gear is ipwr 170...will that map have the neccassary upgrades? It's kinda hard to say. The developers would have to make it uniform across all levels, like in your example +10 ipwr for each rarity. But then in the end game well 10 ipwr isn't much and common gear will feel almost as strong as legendary, but if you 25 ipwr then in the early game greens and blues would be WAY too good.

I think this is a difficult topic on how to balance this...and maybe just getting replacing ipwr requirements with level requirements and maybe recommended minimum ipwr would be better? I'm not sure.

I was only using 10 as a random value, the variance could be reduced, to maybe 5 or so. Regardless, the point is that in the same level range, higher rarity should have better iPwr and actual power. Or basially, iPwr should denote the actual power level of said gear. It would really suck if you had a legendary drop, only for you to get a common item with higher iPwer a second ago. With the current system in place, that actually does happen (even after factoring item upgrade levels) because each level has an iPwer variance of over 10 levels.

Another option is that instead of simply being purely better stats, mythic/legendary could be given the same power formula as epic, but have unique mods specific to themselves. Or perhaps some mods with both positive and negative attributes.

Note that by itself, rarity doesn't need increase iPwr directly. Instead, it's can be indirect by simply having more mods (and more mods should have a corresponding iPwr increase, because said item is certainly more powerful than less mods)

One option of mod balancing:

- Common, Uncommon, Epic as it is.

- Mythic has a tier 2 mod pool; the 2nd mod is always from a "risky" mod pool, with powerful bonuses, but hampered with negative effects. Like maybe increased speed but reduced range (projectile), +ability power% but more mana usage, etc.

- Legendary 3rd mod pool takes from tier 1 and tier 2 mod pools.

- Unique (new rarity) has at least 1 custom mod on an item, or something which makes them different/unique from the normal item rolls. Betsy weapons are retroactively converted to unique

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