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New XP Curve and Level Cap (Loot & Survive)


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We've increased the level cap to 50 and updated the XP curve on leveling up. How do you feel about these changes?

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I feel as if it's still behind. A smallish exp wall hits around level 20 after the campaign as if you were still leveling to a cap of 25, where you would think it wouldn't hit hard until late 30s or early 40s. Any insights on what y'all feel the leveling process/ curve should be?

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The new level curve is nasty, I didn't like it. Maps provide few XP. I believe that leveling alts won't be that bad, but leveling the 1st character is pretty slow, since we have no more combo XP bonus. Maybe leveling alts in higher maps and with lvl 50 boost will be smoother, lets see next month after I reach 50 ^^

Concerning the new max level, I don't see that as a problem, as since as we don't follow the DD1 path of constant lvl cap increases. After official release, I think one level cap increase per year is more than enough. Better to have loot progression than level cap progression.

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I dont mind that much to be honest. From my experience the lvling isnt that very important any more.
Having to get your items up to a certain powerlevel takes so long all my character are so high lvl i hardly get any exp any more. apart from the little extra stats im not paying attention to exp.

My level 20 monk does the same dmg as my lvl 25 squire just because they are on the same power level.

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New exp curve is disgusting, especially with the locked IPW requirements and poor map exp. Most maps give very poor exp and the best map for exp farming, Betsy Easy Campaign, still is very slow to progress with. There is no way to edge out a faster leveling rate if you know what you are doing or get the stats for it. You hit a brick wall the moment you can solo Betsy Easy Campaign and the results are a very slow leveling process for even one character. High end maps should give MUCH MUCH more exp like in DD1. Loot already gives enough play value as do various game modes/challenges (if game adds as much content as DD1 over time).

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Well, I just spent about 3 hours doing inefficient runs looking for potential XP holylands.  Got a single level out of it--and not even on my highest leveled character.  Level 22-->23.  That's...something's off there.  I'm not even at the halfway point on that character yet and I have to hardcore supergrind as if I were almost max?  Numbers have not been tuned right, imo.

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I also have the feeling that the lvl range between 20 and 25 is a big slump. I'm currently stuck where the Free Play Easy Maps are far to easy to do for me while I barely get through the first Free Play Normal Map which doesnt seem to give me a lot of great stat upgrades to progress anywhere beyond that without grinding it 10-20 times in a row. Maybe there are some Normal Maps that i didnt try yet, that are easier to complete.

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For me, it's that the jump from Free Play Normal to Free Play Normal Betsy is pretty overwhelming.  Can reliably clear two Onslaughts but Betsy is far harder, which seems odd.  And because XP is so ridiculously backloaded to when you clear a mission, there's almost no incentive to do something you might lose on--or even might take that long on, which just makes for incredibly boring runs.  If you try to play in a non-boring manner, you get massively penalized for it in levels.


Apparently, the thing to do is fall asleep while clearing Betsy Easy.  Which, given that I'm able to Onslaught, just feels weird.  Why can't I progress at a remotely reasonable pace while playing the game in a natural manner?  When your playerbase is being forced into artificial, gimmicky gameplay, you've got a problem.

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@Xengre quote:

New exp curve is disgusting, especially with the locked IPW requirements and poor map exp. Most maps give very poor exp and the best map for exp farming, Betsy Easy Campaign, still is very slow to progress with. There is no way to edge out a faster leveling rate if you know what you are doing or get the stats for it. You hit a brick wall the moment you can solo Betsy Easy Campaign and the results are a very slow leveling process for even one character. High end maps should give MUCH MUCH more exp like in DD1. Loot already gives enough play value as do various game modes/challenges (if game adds as much content as DD1 over time).

This; grinding easy campaign Betsy is aids.

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I don't understand why drop the combo and other such bonus (repair, upgrade, sell)... soloing is so much harder to level now =/ I'm almost giving up on getting even one Madwick for the event because both times I've tried the maps for it so far, I got my ass handed to me on a silver plate =(

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The levelling curve is horrible now. You need loot far better than you have to complete a map and once you have it there's zero incentive to keep playing at all. If you get one item that has a better ipower rating you boost forward 30 ipower and skip a whole slew of maps instead of having to slowly progress from one to the next. Levelling is slow, ipower gains are either crazy huge if you can play above your ipower level even for a single wave, and other than that you can grind for over 10 hours and get zero better drops. I'm level 33 and I'm using equipment with requirements of level 23 because I can't get anywhere on maps that would drop my level requirement of loot. 


The difficulty curve may be perfect but the loot and XP system is so brokenly slow moving right now you'd never know it. Once you get out of the well paced campaign it becomes a wasteland of poor gains in both loot and XP.

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The XP curve and the XP gain feels wrong.

It should be near impossible to reach the level cap by farming "easy" missions. Even if they did give 2x to much now, the required XP to gain level 50 should be 10x or maybe even 100x times more then this, a 'easy' map should not reward more then 1-2% current level XP when approaching 50. Of cource i dont want a grind, i rather suggest to increase the XP gain at higher difficulties for about the same ammount. 

This change would require some thought how to avoid power leveling ( XP Malus if you played far abow your ipwr, malus if you are far apart from your team etc.... this could all be decided in an influence vote )


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i'm lvl 50 on apprentice
exp curve feels fine until lvl 25 also the whole campaign is great and interesting.

but when campaign ends the things get different. it's almost impossible to play solo against lvl 30 monsters even when you're lvl 40+
i mean you stuck at gear progress of lvl around 20-25 and the exp increment stops even earlier.
i feel the end game mode should be opened from lvl 30 it is so BORING to farm easy maps for the best exp.
BUT the easy free play map gives 40k exp for 7 waves 18ipwr.
while the same end game map have 8 waves and it gives only 8k exp 55ipwr.

i cant progress at lvl 50 i understand that i need another lvl 50 character or even a few but i just cant force myself to farm betsy again there's so many things that are more entertaining.

also maybe it's just me but i hardly can get any loot at end game modes. like regular monsters have a chance to drop gear aroung 0.3% while only bosses guarantees that you'll get something (with a few exceptions of glitch or something when they dont drop anything at all). while at free play and campaign you got tones of loot

thats just a strange things about balance which i cant understand.

i think there's a lot of end game content to farm for like a lot of ipwr lvls and hard enemies and maps. exping shouldn't be so hard and take so long time to reach the real fun and exploring.

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I agree with the stream, the campaign is solid. The curve makes sense and is really fun. However once you finish the campaign, there's a brick wall for freeplay. In fact brick walls are plenty after campaign which obviously you guys knew and that's fine however I would like it addressed.


First  of all exp is a complete and utter grind after campaign which is very jarring. I just find the most efficient map and farm it over and over and I would imagine a lot of people who are up to the grind will do the same. If you want to up the retention % after the campaign then the curve is going to have to be addressed.  Adjust a new exp curve for freeplay maps similar to campaign.

Second im not really seeing a benefit of the cap being raised other than artificially trying to inflate the game. As the player, I don't really notice any differences between my higher lvl character and my lower characters other than a few tower stats and minor health differences.  For the amount of time spent I would like to see natural character stats more meaningful. Right now gear pretty much sums up the hero from start to finish. It may not under the hood but that's what it feels like.


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@Echoplex quote:

I agree with the stream, the campaign is solid. The curve makes sense and is really fun. However once you finish the campaign, there's a brick wall for freeplay. In fact brick walls are plenty after campaign which obviously you guys knew and that's fine however I would like it addressed.


First  of all exp is a complete and utter grind after campaign which is very jarring. I just find the most efficient map and farm it over and over and I would imagine a lot of people who are up to the grind will do the same. If you want to up the retention % after the campaign then the curve is going to have to be addressed.  Adjust a new exp curve for freeplay maps similar to campaign.

Second im not really seeing a benefit of the cap being raised other than artificially trying to inflate the game. As the player, I don't really notice any differences between my higher lvl character and my lower characters other than a few tower stats and minor health differences.  For the amount of time spent I would like to see natural character stats more meaningful. Right now gear pretty much sums up the hero from start to finish. It may not under the hood but that's what it feels like.


Your absolutely right in that the cap raise was designed quite purely for play inflation. They didn't put any effort into giving it meaning and just wanted a reason to make everyone start over and extent play. Even spheres stop at level 25 (VII) with some slots opening up at past 25 but you already have all the spheres by then. This is likely why they also REFUSE to fix EXP spheres when that is something that should not only be hotfixed but could very likely be fixed in (people are going to hate this but it is true in this case) a single line of code, or a couple depending and not a case of some bizarre bug that must be uncovered first.

At level 50 things are basically the same, even gear wise as pre-patch 25 high end gear. It is the nightmare gear you can get at 50 that is the ONLY difference, so they could have just added this to the previous and kept uas at 25 instead. Sigh...

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Leveling system feels great until level 25, and then it's starts to become a grind. I feel that you should give us more choices so that we don't grind the same places rather than adjusting the EXP curve. Choices as in additional smaller quests, or open the other game modes earlier and lower their iPWR requirements.



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The exp curve is awful, leveling takes so long that I"m losing interest in the game and the friend I purchased DD2 with already got too bored to stay motivated and moved on to other games with no grinding.  We wanted to progress through challenging tower defence and farm powerful items in end game, not spend 25-40 hours bored leveling up on the same easy maps just to get to the level cap.  Make leveling fast and fun or lose your player base entirely.   There's so many other fun games to play that asking players to grind before they can really play DD2 simply makes your player base vanish.

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The EXP curve feels right up until level 20 (end of campaign mode)... then the problems become obvious enough to make it unbearable:

  1. IPWR makes no sense (crappy green armor gives more IPWR than a Legendary? mmmkey...);
  2. Gear progression hits a brick wall, as the "only" four useful stats (Hero or Tower HP/ATK) come mixed up with other four "useless" stats (Hero/Tower Crit; Hero DEF/MDEF), thus rendering 90% of the Blue and Purple drops useless... at a point where they are both scarce and essential - unless you equip yourself entirely with high IPWR greens and then expects the random builder from your queued game to carry you while you play beat-em-up with your hero... but no one would do that. Amirite?
  3. EXP gain is mostly tied to the end of waves and end of maps, so failed and test attempts (and bugged-out runs) become mostly wasted time.
  4. Disruptive fullscreen prompts become more of an annoyance (the map ending boxes animation, the daily quest prompts...)thanks to the grindfest needed to level up / search for better loot.
  5. The level cap makes no sense, so we need to grinding easier maps in order to reach level 40 in order to equip a Large Sphere Orb (say, Freeze for the mage) in order to enable strategies (say, Freeze + Shatter) that sorta make you able to progress past the IPWR 23~24 maps (say, Betsy Normal).

... You guys did an excellent job on the Campaign mode tho, and that shows. Shows that we don't need the current itemization in order to finish the campaign, but that said itemization is currently utterly broken outside of said campaign

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The current state really is a bit boring - but I don't think it is because of its length. It is similar to what you did to the level-quests: You have given us quests like 'earn level x' and in the meantime we also had to talk to the gran-masta etc. This was a nice diversion.

My suggestion won't kill all boredom from leveling but I think it could freshen it up a bit: Bring back %-xp-bonuses like master builder etc. (like used exactly all DU, no damage to core, no damage to sub-cores, no subcores fallen).

The 'no damage taken' bonus from DD1 was very tempting to join a map and play afk though. ^^ The majority of the rest would be quite cool and can shorten the experience of leveling.

From what I remember to DD1 leveling was also boring... but I have to admit I only played DD1 as a finished game, so it cannot be compared.

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that reminds me I miss several bonuses from DD1 like strategist (no player attacks), the no damage that [[12589,users]] mentioned, and the similar, but opposite, from strategist where u used no towers at all, only player damage. I really liked those, not only for the XP bonus, but it made me strive for them. Personally, I always liked the strategist.

On another thread, someone said that "tower builds are overpower", well, DD1 had moments where tower builds were overpower and moments when DPS builds were, but they always strived to balance it so we could play the way we liked - that way, I could solo with towers only, but whoever liked focusing on DPS and using towers only as support could too. I really hope to see DD2 go this way too.

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I realy love what you done to the game but how is this working with the Itemlevel and ipwr?

855 ipwwr means lvl 50 Legendary?

since i have not found a way to get lvl 40-50 loot without beeing actualy 50 to have access to Endgame stuff :D

i was thinking it was like in Endgame all items require lvl 50 but have lower Itempower

its actualy only a optical thing but still irrritating :D

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To be frank, I think that there should have been some kind of temporary xp and drop boost (e.g. loaner gear) after the wipe. I would have preferred that to the skins.

Yes, it's pre-alpha and wipes are to be expected but why make leveling such a chore and obstacle to testing new end game content and mechanics?

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@Liguar quote:

To be frank, I think that there should have been some kind of temporary xp and drop boost (e.g. loaner gear) after the wipe. I would have preferred that to the skins.

Yes, it's pre-alpha and wipes are to be expected but why make leveling such a chore and obstacle to testing new end game content and mechanics?

Well, if there had been boosts like that, we might all think that leveling and progression are in an okay place right now. Better that we see what a mess it is right now and help Trendy fix it than have us get to the end game quick and have the game release with terrible progression that drives away players. The end game stuff isn't the only thing that needs testing.

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The xp curve (and tbh I'm not sure if the issue is the xp needed to lvl up, or the lack of xp reward when killing monsters and completing maps that are harder) is just insanely high and unbalanced past lvl 25 or a couple above that.


The difficulty spike past campaign is just too high, compared to the xp values from minion kills and bonus waves.

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