Jump to content

The Overkill is strong in this one. (attack speed and attack prioritization)


Recommended Posts

So i want to start out by saying I like this patch and all the content that was added. Please read this whole post as my main point is toward the end and is underlined.

I think that now defense speed is gone (and this post is not "up in arms" like many others for them to bring it back), the penalty for some of the game's mechanics is sooo much more apparent. Let's start off with an example. I have an average set up (or whatever you think average is) of 5 towers in a lane. There are about 5 kobolds racing down the same lanes trying to kamikaze into my towers as well as 5 orcs. With Attack Speed this really wasn't an issue because the kobolds would get massacred before they even got close. The fact that all towers attacked the same kobold, reloaded, and then all attacked another single kobold wasn't an issue when you are chunking 3-4 cannon/flame balls per second. Now that attacks are at 1-2 per 2 seconds and do 2k damage per shot (Im level 20) it really hurts when all towers attack the same target. A kobold has about 2k health so 1 cannonball would suffice but all 5 are attacking it. (That's 8k damage of overkill for those that don't math.) Now 1 kobold is dead and the other 4 have made it to your towers because your reload is 2 seconds long and they aren't able to shoot again before the kobolds close the gap. At the same time now the orcs are directly on top of your towers because as your towers are overkilling the 1 kobold they neglected the fact that 5 much beefier enemies were closing in.

I realize that I could just build some geyser traps, etc to slow the advance of the kobolds and maybe be able to kill a few more off..but even then all my towers are still shooting at the SAME enemy. So, in essence the problem still remains.

My idea for alleviating this issue is to have customization of our towers attack priority. If we plant a tower and walk up to it and hit "E" (for example) it brings up a scroll wheel with pictures/names of enemies. We can then select one of the options and have that specific tower prioritize that enemy for its attacks. By doing this, I can select maybe 2 out of my 5 towers to attack kobolds on site (thus eliminating the overkill or reducing it to only 2k damage (once again for those that don't math)) and then set the other 3 to prioritize the orcs (just as an example).

I'm not sure what this would entail on the devs end, but comment below and let me know if it's even possible. Thanks!

Let me know what you guys think. Now that attack speed is gone we have to find some new ways to help the game mechanics progress with that change. Also if you have any ideas or strategies for tower placement/staggering to reduce some of this overkill, let me know!

Thanks guys

Edit: another thought i had..(also mentioned in a reply by another person below) --- the other alternative is of course to do something about the targeting AI, so that it recognizes enemies and their remaining hp better and eliminate the player having to do anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Agree, this realy is a problem. Same thing happens when for example 8 small throwing goblins (or whatever they are) start attacking lane with cannonball turrets ( I don't know if it's the case with other turrets). The focus of the turrets is usually on 2 targets, or even 1, dealing excessive damage to each one. Let's say these goblins have 16k health and my turrets have 8k dps. Theoretically it should take them 2 seconds to kill them, with things as they are now it takes them up to 8 seconds. I can build 50 cannonballs and it can still be 8 seconds if mobs spread. That's just stupid. Either change attack speed( ballistas are completly useless, but that's another problem) or like op said, do something about targeting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I FULLY AGREE

This Option Is Used in monkey balloon tower defense 5 and is something DD has bin missing forever.

But i think we need to Keep Shaking Trendy's tree till they Bring back the Speed and Range stats.

Super OP towers Stop Being OP when you set game to nightmare! Now its Slow-mo crap feels lacking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I agree! This is a problem that is hurting the tower defense experience.

There was one Tower Defense I once played (forgot the name), their solution was adding options like "attack last monster in range" or "attack monster with highest hp". I felt like that system gave me a lot of options when I was planning out my builds 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the suggestion of highest HP, could have a large heart icon.  Other suggestions:

lowest HP (small heart)

furthest away (small enemy)

closest (big enemy)

All tower priorities should probably be overridden by anything in range that is attacking a hero/defense/core

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes... The tower targeting A.I. is terribly derp. Has been so since game 1, but in DD1 at least you could upgrade range and speed to the point where you wouldn't notice.

Now, though, DD2 has no real solid way to improve either stat, so it is a problem, and everyone is noticing.

I feel an easy fix could be to implement some form of target and timing priority. Like, make the first tower of a similar group (cannonballs) that's in range of a target have attack priority of that group for that target. Make it so multiple towers will only focus on the same target if there are no others in range and such has been the case for at least 0.2 seconds. Or something like that. Obviously, make an exception for specials and ogres.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I somewhat agree, but I think people are jumping the gun a bit on how things are supposed to work.

I think the intention is to utilize slows, auras, and other things to take care of a lot of the issues people are having. Electric aura + Frost tower is fantastic for keeping things slowed long enough for LA's to be useful, and anything that gets through, defenses can finish off.

I am enjoying it. There could be some changes, but spamming anything but lightning auras, or turtle building with cannonball towers just doesn't work, at least right now for me. 

Switch things up, try new things. 

I'm liking it. (I'm not disagreeing that there are issues, but I'm going into the game with an open mind and trying to break old habits, and find that if you use towers that were previously garbage, you'd be quite surprised.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh no, you have to build different types of defenses. It's almost like that's the intended design.


beginning and end of it is there are other defenses that can deal with multiple units at the same time better. You're more creative than just putting down 5 cannonballs per lane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally, a reasonable thread about defense speed.  While the ability to prioritize different targets would be nice, IMO towers shouldn't need micromanagement to be efficient.  So here's my proposal.

Give towers an internal ability to "call shots" on targets.  Each enemy has a list of towers that are attacking it.  When a tower wants to attack a target, it adds itself into the list along with the minimum amount of damage it's going to do.  Once the damage total exceeds the target's remaining HP, other towers will ignore it because they know it's going to die.  The check is performed again for every attack.

I'll illustrate with example.  Assume towers 1, 2 and 3, as well as kobolds A, B and C.  Each tower does 1500-2500 damage per shot, and each kobold has 2000 HP.

  1. Tower 1 sees kobold A.  No towers are attacking it yet, so it adds itself to A's attacker list, which becomes [(1, 1500)].
  2. Tower 2 sees kobold A.  It inspects the attacker list and determines the total guaranteed damage to be 1500, which is less than 2000.  Tower 2 adds itself to the list, which is now [(1, 1500), (2, 1500)].
  3. Tower 3 sees kobold A.  It inspects the attacker list and determines the total guaranteed damage to be 3000.  That's more than 2000; the kobold is going to die.  Tower 3 skips this target.
  4. Tower 3 sees kobold B.  The attacker list is empty, and tower 3 adds itself there.
When the shots are fired, kobold A will receive 3000-5000 damage and will die.  That's up to 2.5x overkill, but a single shot would not have been a guaranteed kill.  Kobold B receives 1500-2500 damage and might also die.

This algorithm tries to make sure that some enemies dies as quickly as possible, without wasting too much damage on overkill.  As an alternative, towers could try to each attack a distinct target.  This would minimize the amount of overkill, but enemies would stay alive longer and be able to do more damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Syclic quote:

Oh no, you have to build different types of defenses. It's almost like that's the intended design.


beginning and end of it is there are other defenses that can deal with multiple units at the same time better. You're more creative than just putting down 5 cannonballs per lane.

[[30942,users]], I'm assuming you're probably maining your huntress at the moment, yeah? Are you enjoying it? I'm loving mine right now and how things feel useful and mesh so well together with other defenses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@SmellyFeet quote:

There was one Tower Defense I once played (forgot the name), their solution was adding options like "attack last monster in range" or "attack monster with highest hp". I felt like that system gave me a lot of options when I was planning out my builds 

I seem to recall Gemcraft having that, at least in some incarnation of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Tristaris quote:

I somewhat agree, but I think people are jumping the gun a bit on how things are supposed to work.

I think the intention is to utilize slows, auras, and other things to take care of a lot of the issues people are having. Electric aura + Frost tower is fantastic for keeping things slowed long enough for LA's to be useful, and anything that gets through, defenses can finish off.

I am enjoying it. There could be some changes, but spamming anything but lightning auras, or turtle building with cannonball towers just doesn't work, at least right now for me. 

Switch things up, try new things. 

I'm liking it. (I'm not disagreeing that there are issues, but I'm going into the game with an open mind and trying to break old habits, and find that if you use towers that were previously garbage, you'd be quite surprised.)

I'm fine with trying new things, even going as far as lining non-walkway areas with towers like a more traditional Tower Defense.

But the thing is, the Monk has a Boost Aura that makes every other tower in it's area more awesome, which actively encourages players to clump towers close together (though the Boost Aura is really broken right now). This is where the lumped targeting really becomes a problem. This means that a basic build pattern that used to work quite well is now doing more harm than good, despite looking like a great idea to new and old players alike.

Basically, thanks to the derp A.I., it looks like the game is encouraging players for building smart with the Monk's Boost, but is in fact punishing anyone who tries it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the general take that things need some tweaking - possibly a lot of tweaking - if you're throwing out defense speed and range.  One thing in the 'defense' of  such general change tho, as you reach the tougher and late game, you get back to 3 and then grow to a 4 hero deck.  So we have at least one more mixer.


Solo with 1 or 2 toons may go a bit by the wayside, demanding a *used* deck of 3 or 4 to hit the big stuff solo.  I'm looking forward to using 3 & 4 toons, I only really had used monk/hunter to crush all, and my third slot was levelling the other 2 ;-b


We'll see how that plays out.. I'm still a bit leery with some of the nerfs and changes to this tower *defense* game but i'm enjoying the ride enough to take on this next tweak too and give it proper chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Tristaris quote:

Syclic, I'm assuming you're probably maining your huntress at the moment, yeah? Are you enjoying it? I'm loving mine right now and how things feel useful and mesh so well together with other defenses. 

Yeah, I'm playing Huntress and it's really nice to have a reason for each defense to exist now. I use all 4, but there's still room for improvement from other heroes' defenses. Like Huntress is really weak at dealing with air, so when it's really nice when a monk comes in with Skyguards.

For the most part we're doing Squire+Huntress because that's what Elandrian and I wanted to play. And the combo works great even when it has no strict synergies with combos. Cannonball towers are strong and dealing with large leftovers from my traps, but the traps still do most of the damage because they're hitting more targets earlier.

TL:DR new patch is the best thing that's happened for build diversity. Even walls are strong when used correctly now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Syclic quote:

Yeah, I'm playing Huntress and it's really nice to have a reason for each defense to exist now. I use all 4, but there's still room for improvement from other heroes' defenses. Like Huntress is really weak at dealing with air, so when it's really nice when a monk comes in with Skyguards.

For the most part we're doing Squire+Huntress because that's what Elandrian and I wanted to play. And the combo works great even when it has no strict synergies with combos. Cannonball towers are strong and dealing with large leftovers from my traps, but the traps still do most of the damage because they're hitting more targets earlier.

TL:DR new patch is the best thing that's happened for build diversity. Even walls are strong when used correctly now.

I'm agreeing 100% with you. I'm glad, at least at the early levels that spamming one type of defense just doesn't quite work. 

Everything seems to have a purpose, if it's not broken I mean, and that's okay and people need to explore those avenues instead of jumping the gun on the DS reduction.

I'm thoroughly enjoying those aspects of the patch, and hope they keep on. I like diversity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep this is nearly standard on every tower defense where u can select from : first target, last target, lowest health, most health . ...

good idea !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Tristaris quote:

I'm agreeing 100% with you. I'm glad, at least at the early levels that spamming one type of defense just doesn't quite work. 

Everything seems to have a purpose, if it's not broken I mean, and that's okay and people need to explore those avenues instead of jumping the gun on the DS reduction.

I'm thoroughly enjoying those aspects of the patch, and hope they keep on. I like diversity.

Say waht? Sorry but...

If you're playing a Squire or Apprentice in early levels, spamming one type of defense is the only option. Walls are quite tough, but let's face it, uber DPS they are not. Unless you meant grouping them all in one spot. In which case yea, that's kinda stupid on the players' part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@DaMattGuy quote:


@Tristaris quote:

I'm agreeing 100% with you. I'm glad, at least at the early levels that spamming one type of defense just doesn't quite work. 

Everything seems to have a purpose, if it's not broken I mean, and that's okay and people need to explore those avenues instead of jumping the gun on the DS reduction.

I'm thoroughly enjoying those aspects of the patch, and hope they keep on. I like diversity.

Say waht? Sorry but...

If you're playing a Squire or Apprentice in early levels, spamming one type of defense is the only option. Walls are quite tough, but let's face it, uber DPS they are not. Unless you meant grouping them all in one spot. In which case yea, that's kinda stupid on the players' part.

Yeah, I'm speaking of the people who think spamming one specific tower is how they are going to accomplish things now.

At low levels mostly anything works mostly well enough, once you get past campaign, a little more thought does have to go into it though.

At low levels of course there isn't too many options :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some skills need to change as well, like Powerful Spears, still only enables the ballista to deal full damage for the next 4 seconds, which doesn't even extend to the next shot. The most skill in the game right now I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm almost starting to like it. I feel like theres a bit more strategy now. I'm actually using lightning auras at a certain distance from walls to catch the ranged folks, something I never had to do before because little dudes never meatshielded for them.

I really liked attack speed for the shear entertainment value, but this certainly feels like there is more to work with. Still, its been a short time and I doubt many, if any, have reached endgame yet (mostly because it seems a bit glitched)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blizz solved this in SC2 by just tweaking the AI of Siege Tanks. Trendy should be able to do the same. 

The slow attack speed coupled with a gimpy AI is not fun and should be fixed before launch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...