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Cavespider

Give us back Defense Speed

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Yes, towers still do most of the work, but it still doesn't feel fun, feels like I'm making 0 progress, just grinding... With a side of more grinding.

When a loot based tower defense game lacks the feeling of progress, you know they done messed *bleep* up.

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I found Defense Speed really fun. Sure, the DPS maybe got crazy, but I would say just balance the later levels around that crazy DPS. The towers seem less exciting without fast attack speed. I also prefer high speeds than critical damage on towers. Relying on chance is not very fun in my eyes.

@Cavespider quote:

They could Hardcap/Softcap or just use diminishing returns on Tower Attack Speed

Diminishing returns would be a good way to go about it.

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Guess since the update i feel totally opposite of you, but it's cool we are allowed to have different opinions :)

@MrNipple quote:

Yes, towers still do most of the work, but it still doesn't feel fun, feels like I'm making 0 progress, just grinding... With a side of more grinding.

When a loot based tower defense game lacks the feeling of progress, you know they done messed *bleep* up.


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@Kleeborp quote:

Guess since the update i feel totally opposite of you, but it's cool we are allowed to have different opinions :)

@MrNipple quote:

Yes, towers still do most of the work, but it still doesn't feel fun, feels like I'm making 0 progress, just grinding... With a side of more grinding.

When a loot based tower defense game lacks the feeling of progress, you know they done messed *bleep* up.


I think we can both agree that the majority want speed back. It doesn't need to be as op as it was before, but removing it completely did more harm than good.

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I'm not sure anyone can agree about what the majority want as there are no figures or evidence to prove that. 

Forum discussion about games in general is often the vocal minority while the majority are busy focusing on the playing the game. 


Personally I the amount of speed available in game is pretty reasonable, as long as higher level gloves give a nice boost. Base attack rate could do with an improvement for a few towers though. 

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Options are always good, i don't disagree with you, but i personally am more please with the game after the update then before, i do find there are many new stats and stat bonus's to figure out (which i kind of like so far), but overall it is great. But yes i do agree with you there :) But also keep in mind the more stats there are, the harder it will be to get the stats you want. so it is give and take. dd1 had 10 stats plus 4 res and the amount of ups, so it was super hard to get a good roll on gear, always get a good half dps and tower piece.

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Personally... After deciding for a few days...and making it to level 33 on my squire. 

I have decided to quit dd2 and spend my time else where. It simply isn't worth my time. 

I spent 90 hours on the patch before this, and 16 hours on this one. I don't enjoy it.

Too much running around, and whacking and slashing.


I'll keep in mind its pre-alpha and things can change. As in the mean time, I'm kissing it goodbye till things are fixed (if they are).


*heads off for dd1*

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i probbaly gonna quit to, 

to many wlaking around and slashing and hacking useless also the xp grind is sooooo to slow

@iSkeptical quote:

Personally... After deciding for a few days...and making it to level 33 on my squire. 

I have decided to quit dd2 and spend my time else where. It simply isn't worth my time. 

I spent 90 hours on the patch before this, and 16 hours on this one. I don't enjoy it.

Too much running around, and whacking and slashing.


I'll keep in mind its pre-alpha and things can change. As in the mean time, I'm kissing it goodbye till things are fixed (if they are).


*heads off for dd1*


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@Tristaris quote:


@TheAcen quote:

~snip~

Cannonball towers are not meant to take out large clumps of enemies any longer. Maybe with the Uber sphere, but early on definitely not.

Before you could for the most part, spam only one type of defense and it'd be mostly okay. Now they want to push more diversity among builds. You want to use things like a ballista shooting down a lane, or earth shatter to start pelting things before it gets in range of your defenses.

Ice towers coupled with explosives, lightning auras, blaze balloons, or any other damaging aura works absolutely wonders.

Stacking nothing but cannonball towers is not fun, nor is it very efficient at the moment.

I do not disagree about monk auras, I think it needs to be fixed, and I would not object to small defense speed while leveling, but do not think it should make its way back as a stat that can be stacked on gear. 

The couple of guys I play with and myself are progressing quite well (or at least I feel we are) through Free Play Hard, as well as we've completed a map on Incursion Hard and a wave or two of Onslaught. Balance is fine, but the tuning is quite tight, and is where I feel it should be.

My two cents. Feel free to add me on steam if you need some help breaking through the ilvl 90 barrier. Group I play with are around ilvl 140-150ish at the moment.

I know it's hard finding a balance between the guys who want laser beam towers and those who don't.  People who like to spam 1-2 types of towers are no longer able to do so from what I can tell so far. Seems like it will always be a win - lose either way you go for somebody.  However, I'm actually enjoying the game more than I thought I would right now because I actually have to dps with my hero to win at the stage I am. I have also always liked to use a variety of towers and different builds.

I wish the rate would drop a bit maybe from 2.50 to 1.5 - 2.  Just now started working on my huntress to see how she does. Haven't touched squire yet. Monk boost... not sure it's worth the du, upgrading it is not worth the mana. Feel like targeting is a slight issue as well.

I played a lot on console and it feels similar, we had stat caps. You had to actually dps ogres and djinn or it was game over. You had to build every lane, there were no crystal builds, or spamming one tower.

Haven't progressed to hard yet, been playing solo. I tried and lost in about 45 seconds... I am really trying to be open minded and progress as far as I can with no rate stats. Have to admit it's pretty fun so far. Gotta get these blaze balloons unlocked so I can try them out.

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@Syclic quote:
The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

[1] I posted in this thread, and I did *not* assert that the game is unplayable, just that defense speed did not have to be removed to solve whatever problems they wanted to solve. So don't say that "every" reply in the thread says that the game is unplayable, because I did not, which renders "every" to be incorrect. Similarly, while I personally have not seen what end game play is like, how do you know for certain that "NONE" (your caps) have done so? Sweeping statements do not help you come across as reasonable.

(PS - there are also many people in this thread who have posted *defending* the removal of Defense Speed, or telling other people they are flat wrong like yourself. I suppose those posts were also part of the "every reply" asserting that the game is unplayable?)

[2] Maybe some of us don't like to adjust our playstyle to fit how the game works now. After all, I don't like having to fit my playstyle to say, Call of Duty. So, I don't play that game. Similarly, if some of us don't like the way DDII ends up, we might just not play it, instead of adapting our playstyle. In the same way that players cannot expect the Devs to adapt their game to our playstyle (even if they hope), games cannot expect players to adapt to how they work - we either like it, or we go somewhere else. A lot of this thread has people expressing the latter; and the reason people feel they can express their opinion because this is a "pre-alpha" game, that the Devs have asked us to help shape.

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Wow at the strawman responses!

We want DS back cause its fun...

I'll gladly put my builds up against any map.

bring DS back cause the game is slowwwww

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I think most agree with this, and keep crit as bonus stat only, i really like the attackspeed and it agve us more options on what items and what builds to have


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Why can't we be friends?

But seriously, the bugs are enormous here, the lack of attack speed seems to slow the game down a bit and I like that.  I will reserve judgment on a massive, game-changing patch until AFTER most game-breaking bugs are fixed and the davs have had a chance to do two things, catch up on sleep dept and push out a few balance patches. 

Until then I'm with those that say adapt your personal play-style to the new game, I'm personally having more fun playing with 2-3 friends now than before the patch because now all players are actively involved in repairing towers and attacking enemies.  The teamwork is strong with this patch ;)

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Honestly, I definetely support the "adding attack speed" idea. It's a god damn tower defense game, and it shouldn't go the way that if you want to progress, you need to hack n' slash through enemies yourself. I remember the good old days of dd1, watching my towers do all the work, and feeling like a true strategic general, whilst playing dd2 I feel like the tower defense part is slim. The game is definetely too boring for me, especially since I rely on soloing the game because I dont have active friends that could play dd2 with me.

Anyways, this is just my opinion, just wanted to get my ideas into this conversation.

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@Macc quote:

Good Job Trendy remove tower speed.... One of u biggest fail !

The only thing that has failed, is how much sense that post made.

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Your right, my complaining is based on early game gameplay.

Its, slow, frustrating, painful and boring.

Telling me to "Get to endgame and then talk about it." isn't valid when I can't bring myself to want to play.  If I have to FORCE myself to play, then its not a game anymore.  I have plenty of other games that I can enjoy a LOT more then the state of this game currently, which is why I am not playing much, AND also why I am in this thread talking about WHY this attributes removal is the primary reason why I'm not having fun.

-----

While I am not a casual, this current state of early game is NOT friendly to new players, unless they have experienced friends to work with, or if they get carried (intentionally or not).  And for those of us who get these newer players in our groups, who don't know how to try to build for this games new state, or experienced players who REFUSE to try to change to new builds and insist on trying over and over and over to make LA+Geysers or Geysers+Skyguards and screw the rest of their team over are only making the early game leveling/grinding even less fun.

The lack of detailed information on tower, their scaling and their actual mechanics/effects is only making this more apparent because I CAN'T SEE HOW IT WORKS!  For the love of the game, PLEASE get around to adding the detailed tower/attack information soon.  PLEASE put a few people to work on getting the system to pull the scaling information and translate it into a stat block, and get it put in.

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Do I want DS to be back in its full glory?  HELL NO!  When 1 stat is MANDATORY for EVERY class, it needs to be rethought or added as a base attribute and removed from gear.  While it was removed from gear, it was NOT added in any other fashion.  The major issue is that THE MAIN core tower stat was removed.  Not replaced, not rolled into base character progression (which would control how much you could get), but removed, and everything else was not rebalanced to account for this at all.  EVERYTHING is still based around DS being a core stat, even though you can't get it.  THAT is what the issue is.  It's not there, the gaping wound is still there, and the "bandaid" was "We left the sphere's in!"

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Want to make it into a non-guaranteed stat?  Give it a drawback.  Like reduced power scaling, with the damage penalty getting larger the more speed you get.  Not linear either, so if you stack it too much, you hurt your builds.

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My current strategy is to stack DefHP as my main stat, DP as my 2nd stat, wall the lane and pile Fireburst towers behind it, and get a Squire to add some Cannon towers to the MRes lanes for me.  I haven't found any other way to get anything to work.  The claim that I keep hearing of "This new gamestate encourages new build types and experimenting!" doesn't seem true to me.  Its punishing more then anything, and the builds that do work are boring, and don't even work well (read as "Requires extensive babysitting or they explode and you lose").

-----

When I got to the point where I could AFK wave 4 Betsy Hard, the game lost the last bit of challenge for me.  But it wasn't the TRASH MOBS that were challenging, it was the subosses/bosses that gave the challenge. 

Now its the trash that is challenging and the bosses aren't so much (but that is due to the heavier emphasis on hero damage rather then a problem with the boss), which isn't fun.  Horde mobs were designed to overwhelm your defenses due to sheer numbers.  Now every mob type acts like a horde type, which makes Orcs/Warboars/Javelines/Drakon a problem for any build, as they always have a massive buffer of other mobs soaking your towers limited attention span, and breaking the lane because your towers can't clear trash mobs, let alone packs of heavy mobs.

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TL;DR - I don't wan't DS returned in its full strength, but you can't gut the game WITHOUT repairing the gaping wound left by removing that much of a core part of it.  Lack of targeting priority was already an issue, which has only by expounded exponentially by removing the 1 stat that was used as a "workaround".  Will "fixing" the targeting/priority issue fix the current issue many people have?  Not completely, but at least the game won't be as painful to play, and a lot of us "non-super-hardcore" players will actually be able to progress towards endgame and see this "not an issue at endgame" that I keep hearing about.

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It's nice to hear that 50+++ works ok.  Now what about 18-50?  How do I do that without having to spend 45-60 minutes to clear 5 waves on the early Normal Freeplay only to fail on the wave PRIOR to the boss because we can't clear the trash packs before they overwhelm us.  I wan't to play this game, I just don't enjoy the gameplay that I currently have available to me.

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While I do not think tower speed should have been removed, I also think it shouldn't have been as effective as it was. Having enough speed to make a huntress' geyser trap be a more effective wall than a blockade from a squire just didn't make sense. Also, having such high speed took away the downside to using certain towers over others; for example, the point of the apprentice's flame tower is that it deals AoE but does not hit as hard so it is better at taking out the groups of smaller units, the squires cannon hits harder but does not have AoE so it is supposed to be better at taking out the larger targets, when really high defense speed is added in there is little difference between the towers and the squire cannon may as well be used for everything.

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I just can't read so much english answers with technical terms, so i just say one thing,


Trendy ask to player about a wipe so why they don't do the same thing about this delicate subject ?


I mean, it take off a polemical subject with a clear opinion . Easy peasy :p

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@Narutimalte quote:

I just can't read so much english answers with technical terms, so i just say one thing,


Trendy ask to player about a wipe so why they don't do the same thing about this delicate subject ?


I mean, it take off a polemical subject with a clear opinion . Easy peasy :p

You mean, hold an influence vote for bringing back Tower Speed?

Sounds good to me.

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@DaMattGuy quote:


@Narutimalte quote:

I just can't read so much english answers with technical terms, so i just say one thing,


Trendy ask to player about a wipe so why they don't do the same thing about this delicate subject ?


I mean, it take off a polemical subject with a clear opinion . Easy peasy :p

You mean, hold an influence vote for bringing back Tower Speed?

Sounds good to me.

yes exactly :p

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@Tolleff quote:

The huntress and monk is useless now.

Being the bold person I am, I have been soloing the game as monk thus far (with squire barricades.) While I agree monks are horrendous at beginning levels, it is starting to pick up for me at level 30+.

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