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Cavespider

Give us back Defense Speed

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@OnlyVision quote:

Defense speed was my favorite stat in Dungeon Defenders. Seeing you'r towers shoot like gatling guns was a real pleasure. :)

seeing? more like not being able to see anything at all for explosions everywhere (specailly if you used apprentice towers)

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Disclaimer: I love this game (and DD1), all comments are to try and improve the game and I know they’re working their asses off to improve it, I just think this change is a step in the wrong direction.

I don't understand the comparison between this and games such as Defense Grid (love it, and #2) and Sanctum etc. These games are route-building tower defences where you play around enemy types/speeds/resistances, towers do not get attacked and it is all about the maze you create.

This is completely different to Dungeon Defenders, which is set paths to a target they are trying to destroy, and they will attack anything in their way (so route setting/diversions aren't an option etc). This places huge importance on the ability to tailor builds to delay/impede/destroy opponents. I’m not going to build a swirling route of blockades to delay a middle route whilst dealing with other lanes, that’s just dumb and not for this gameplay.

The removal of tower speed means my builds can only be customised with 2 stats now (ignoring the awful Critical Dmg/chance stats that add in unwanted RNG and are only viable for towers with reasonable fire rates)

  •  Health (good for blocking-defence, terrible for DPS defence). So I would only build HP for a block charactering or durable character
  • Power (good for, y’know, killing stuff. Pretty terrible for defences that will get hit). So I would build into this for DPScharacters.

That’s it. There are no other choices for gearing. I can’t see if a balanced power/speed build is better for cannon-heavy builds, or if pure speed explosive trap spam is superior to 100% power builds etc. I just have to max 1 number for 1 character. That is incredibly dull and takes away any personalisation of how to deal with a problem, which was one of the best bits in DD1. A hybrid speed/dps build could match a pure power build. Yes therewas an ideal, but you had choice!

The worst bit is you do not get any feeling of power or progression now in any form except damage numbers. A level 1 squire can join and his towers will fire the exact same rate, and look the same, as a level 50 squire, the only difference is the damage being done. He should join and be over-awed by the hail-of-hell being put down by my epic towers I have invested hours of grinding gear into.

I was probably being naive thinking there wouldn't be another wipe after this - but I'd be so surprised if they don't wipe again and reintroduce defence speed, without it it just doesn't feel like a DUngeon Defenders game to me at the moment.

Otherwise – the changes were awesome, finding a game is much better than before, the way they introduce enemies is far clearer etc. Great progress, but we need more tower/gear customisation options, not fewer.

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My character is level 35, the im one map from completing normal entirely my item level's are 90 to 96 based on gear setup.

I have gear sets based on crit attack and gear sets based on  dps attack  saved up.  DPS attack with the DS spheres is the only way to do the higher level maps as a squire. Even with a 15% change to do crit damage the incident is too far and too few.

PLUS its slow and boring.

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@Mabby quote:

The worst bit is you do not get any feeling of power or progression now in any form except damage numbers. A level 1 squire can join and his towers will fire the exact same rate, and look the same, as a level 50 squire, the only difference is the damage being done. He should join and be over-awed by the hail-of-hell being put down by my epic towers I have invested hours of grinding gear into.

This !

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I think removing it from loot was not really a bad decision. Now the towers just need to be buffed a bit to make up for the huge tower speed loss.

Basically, increasing the base speeds of the towers a lot. Also optionally making the tower speed spheres slightly better, so that they actually do something.

I think the removal of tower speed is overall good for the game, but people just need to alter their builds and the devs need to rebalance the towers a lot.


I say "Good job Trendy, now go fix what you kinda broke."

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Coming from the perspective of someone who played DD1 a couple years ago for 80 hours or so... and then just started DD2 yesterday... I didn't notice the Defense Speed debuff having any effect on my enjoyment of the game. The game does not feel slow to me in the least. I think it sounds like Defense Speed would be very difficult to balance because the rate of power compounding with each successive turret planted would be insane if they were all very fast, too.

Anyway, I'm very confident that Trendy is going to continue to experiment and try to make the best game they can.

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Well campaign is a breeze, but there is a big step up to free play, if you solo. If you have a group you can DPS the boss lanes easy enough. It is solo where they have got it wrong.

The mix of tower plus DPS seems to work but there is no AFK solo like there was, which is right the game should engage but the solo game is still not right.

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Towers in their current state just dont feel as powerful with their slow, labored shots, I dont feel as powerful and in general, to me, the game just feels much slower to play.

I really enjoyed being able to speed up my towers,  I feel like something really important is missing now, I dont enjoy this change at all.

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The targeting system of tower is a huge problem, they should have a proximity priority on where it's aim, etc. Instead of shooting all the same target and lose a huge amount of dmg...

Not to mention the delay...

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Don't give back def speed.  Game is challenging now and we can actually SEE the mobs since there's not a gazillion fireball explosions at the same time.  

Also, hero dps, walls and non-damaging towers are FINALLY useful since defenses don't completely destroy everything on sight.

I'm seriously laughing at everybody who say the game feels boring :

Now we gotta move and attack mobs ourself to help the defenses (MORE ACTION) instead of going to sleep in a corner waiting for map to end (BORING AS HELL), and you guys are complaining the game feels boring now????? 

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@Carrylex quote:


@Mabby quote:

The worst bit is you do not get any feeling of power or progression now in any form except damage numbers. A level 1 squire can join and his towers will fire the exact same rate, and look the same, as a level 50 squire, the only difference is the damage being done. He should join and be over-awed by the hail-of-hell being put down by my epic towers I have invested hours of grinding gear into.

This !

+1

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Every game I have played boils down to 1 Strat.  Blockade and put AoE towers behind it and then BABYSIT IT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T KILL ANYTHING.  My Eartshatters decide that rather then targeting the Drakon's, Javelines or Mages that are sitting back wrecking EVERYTHING, they are gonna nuke that 1 Goblin that is right in front of the barricade getting pounded by my Flameburst towers.  And due to the constant spawning of enemies (which is cool btw, total fan of that change), they continue to do this until that pack of javelines breaks the blockade and suddenly all my towers are getting wrecked.  Unless, I sit on it and babysit it.  Because even a pure AoE tower clump against a horde lane still can't clear it well.

If I run 2x Earthshatter + 2x Flameburst, upgrade them fast, and have a decent boost sitting on them, I can hold a single lane on Betsy (campaign normal) while trying to farm gear so I can go into freeplay (but that's a different complaint).  Why do I need 4 AoE towers buffered by a wall of barricades just to take out a pack of goblins?????  When my iPwr is 2x the base for the level.......  If I wanted to play a defense game where I had to do most of the work myself and just utilize my defenses for CC/Debuffs, I would be playing Sanctum (I have both, but haven't played them much because I would rather play Orcs must Die because wrecking things with super fun intricate trap setups is Awesome^3).

If I can't rely on my towers to do anything without MASSIVELY over-gearing the level, whats the point of playing a tower+hero defense game?  Because then I'm just playing a Hero Defense game.  Which would be like playing a MOBA that has only massive creep waves and no enemy base.  So, 1/2 of a MOBA.  WHICH IS NOT WHAT I PAYED TO SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trendy, if this is your intention, please just let me know so that I can uninstall, and go cry in a corner at having been suckered into another EA title that doesn't end up being what it was supposed to be.


Summary:  While I love the direction this update went, I am currently having issues actually wanting to log in and play.  Having to grind campaign Betsy over and over and over and over again because gear I can use refuses to drop, combined with how frustratingly slow each run is, has made me NOT want to play.  I find myself looking at the gears iPwr to see if I can use it to cheese the requirements to get into the first freeplay map just to do something different.

-----

8s Geysers.  Might as well just remove the drench and knockup and just give me a bigger radius so I can use it as an land mine.  Because that's all I can rely on it for, as it's useless as a CC tool with that long of a cooldown.  Good thing you buffed its damage by like 400% or it would NEVER get used.

1.25s Lightning Auras.....  Ya, it ticks maybe twice on a mob as it walks through it.  It's like i'm playing with a super low damage LSA.  I don't even bother to build these, I just put down a Serenity and club things because 1 pole smash is worth like 15s of LA damage.  And it CC's the mobs it hits if it doesn't kill them.  AND THAT IS ON MY TOWER BASED MONK!!!!  When I'm geared for full tower damage, WHY DO I OUTPERFORM MY LA FIELD WITH MY AUTO-ATTACK ALONE??????

2.5s Flameburst.  Anti-Horde tower that shoots so slowly that it can't kill a horde.  If it had a high crit chance, It would work as is, as you could just set everything on fire and let it burn down.  But it doesn't.  Build in mass, and hide it behind several Barricades and it'll kill a pack of goblins before they can kill the barricade.  Most of the time.

5s Eartshatter.  Small AoE, poor damage, narrow cone, cant force it to target mobs that are further away as a priority.  In mass this thing does a fairly good job at clearing a narrow lane of horde mobs, but is useless against anything with a decent amount of HP that attacks from range.

2s Skyguard.  Ya, build 1 just to slow things, and shoot the air units yourself, you'll kill them faster.

Frostbite tower.  Good thing it can constantly fire a stream to keep everything around its target slowed.  Oh, wait, it has a refire time after it finishes its channel?  Killing its current target forces it into this recast timer?  Losing LoS on its current target forces it into this recast timer.  L. O. L.  Building 2 of them staggered to cover a lane works, but then you're giving up damage, and as they don't stack, its like putting 2 boost aura's 

NewMeta:  DP+Def Crit Damage Huntress laying Geyser Fields, Def HP+DP App with Frostbite and Barricades to hold mobs in the Mine Field, and everyone else goes hero DPS or Tank and dances in the mine field.

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Personally I'd like to see the base speed increased by at least 100 and for it to increase as we level like all the other stat's.  Cap it at the 800-1k-ish mark (including spheres) if you like to stop things getting out of control.

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Alternatively, change the speed sphere's from a stat to a haste effect (% faster attack/recharge rate).  Could even easily add in a Hero one with that system as well.  That's what they did for Crit Chance spheres.  Level 50 version could be like a 6% haste, with the unique one being ~8%.  Full Speed Spheres would be 20%, but you would be losing out on a LOT of power/crit to get it.

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@Some random guy quote:

Don't give back def speed.  Game is challenging now and we can actually SEE the mobs since there's not a gazillion fireball explosions at the same time.  

Also, hero dps, walls and non-damaging towers are FINALLY useful since defenses don't completely destroy everything on sight.

I'm seriously laughing at everybody who say the game feels boring :

Now we gotta move and attack mobs ourself to help the defenses (MORE ACTION) instead of going to sleep in a corner waiting for map to end (BORING AS HELL), and you guys are complaining the game feels boring now????? 

Not everyone likes the same things you like. I LIKED having heavy defenses at the cost of player DPS. I don't want to run around like an a-hole trying to catch kobolds before they blow up my barriers. 


So, please, don't tell other people how they should enjoy the game. Some people want to be Theodin and others want to be William Wallace. Neither playstyle is "correct" and the game should accommodate both. 

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@Drogra quote:

Alternatively, change the speed sphere's from a stat to a haste effect (% faster attack/recharge rate).  Could even easily add in a Hero one with that system as well.  That's what they did for Crit Chance spheres.  Level 50 version could be like a 6% haste, with the unique one being ~8%.  Full Speed Spheres would be 20%, but you would be losing out on a LOT of power/crit to get it.

That's already essentially how they work now. full set of DS spheres (2x VI 1x VII) gives you 29% faster attacking defenses.

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I see some equipment has some speed boosts for particular towers / auras.  I think fixing this is two parts:


1) better base balance / speeds / targetting

2) some real itemization and flexibility across equipment / spheres / builds to not just speed or pump up one tower / aura in the arsenal


I'd add a third part if this critcal sticks

3) better explanation how it works, right now '+123 crit' for defense (and heroes) is a lot less meaningful (and more variable)


It still feels like an odd change, if I missed a vote (dont think so?) I would have never said lose def speed for def crit.  Hero crit has potential if it truly has - and can properly relay - what '+123' means for the hero.  A lot of us come from towers first and toons second.  So kudos on continued hero efforts, but careful with our Defense!


Tl;dr as others have mentioned, some of us are coming from tower (and dungeon ;-) defenders first, not dps heroes.  My fave classes were those which brought/boosted tower power, in defense power, *speed and range*.

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@antiproton quote:


@Some random guy quote:

Don't give back def speed.  Game is challenging now and we can actually SEE the mobs since there's not a gazillion fireball explosions at the same time.  

Also, hero dps, walls and non-damaging towers are FINALLY useful since defenses don't completely destroy everything on sight.

I'm seriously laughing at everybody who say the game feels boring :

Now we gotta move and attack mobs ourself to help the defenses (MORE ACTION) instead of going to sleep in a corner waiting for map to end (BORING AS HELL), and you guys are complaining the game feels boring now????? 

Not everyone likes the same things you like. I LIKED having heavy defenses at the cost of player DPS. I don't want to run around like an a-hole trying to catch kobolds before they blow up my barriers. 


So, please, don't tell other people how they should enjoy the game. Some people want to be Theodin and others want to be William Wallace. Neither playstyle is "correct" and the game should accommodate both. 

The exact same thing could be said to you guys, your doing the exact same thing.

I'm following what the devs gives us, but you guys on the contrary just complain and want it redone.

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@Fuzzy quote:

In my opinion, the Devs should bring back Tower Range and Tower Attack Speed stats and add the ability to play in infinite mode after completing the set number of waves in a level. This is what made DD1 fun, the challenge was not trying to beat the mission, but trying to reach the highest wave that you possibly can. Even with the best gear, the "overpowered" builds would eventually reach a limit and be overran by the enemies. Onslaught is an interesting game mode and delivers a unique challenge to the game, however, it is no substitution to endless waves on any map that allows you to push your characters gear and your own ability to the limits. This allows the casual player who only want to get in a short amount of time the ability to do just that, while it allows the more hardcore players to to obtain high level gear, while still playing on the normal game maps.

I Agree so much that we might have bin separated at birth! 

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@Syclic quote:

This entire thread is absurd. The game is objectively better now. Without having such broken things in the first place you would have never lusted for it. Defense speed virtually infinitely scaling is bad for the game. End of story.


if you want to get ludicrous speeds, wait for it to hit consoles and hack the *** out of it like everyone does for D3.

I get the feeling this guy never played DD1. You sir are incorrect. No one wants this to be like other tower defense game. They want it to be like dungeon defenders. that's the whole point of a sequel. 

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@Some random guy quote:


@antiproton quote:


@Some random guy quote:

Don't give back def speed.  Game is challenging now and we can actually SEE the mobs since there's not a gazillion fireball explosions at the same time.  

Also, hero dps, walls and non-damaging towers are FINALLY useful since defenses don't completely destroy everything on sight.

I'm seriously laughing at everybody who say the game feels boring :

Now we gotta move and attack mobs ourself to help the defenses (MORE ACTION) instead of going to sleep in a corner waiting for map to end (BORING AS HELL), and you guys are complaining the game feels boring now????? 

Not everyone likes the same things you like. I LIKED having heavy defenses at the cost of player DPS. I don't want to run around like an a-hole trying to catch kobolds before they blow up my barriers. 


So, please, don't tell other people how they should enjoy the game. Some people want to be Theodin and others want to be William Wallace. Neither playstyle is "correct" and the game should accommodate both. 

The exact same thing could be said to you guys, your doing the exact same thing.

I'm following what the devs gives us, but you guys on the contrary just complain and want it redone.

On the contrary, 

Some of us are not complaining. 

We just are simply suggesting an old stat back, and it doesn't have to be "redone".


In my honest opinion, we have to FOLLOW what the devs give us, we don't have much choice. 


And It looks like the community is greatly split on opinions for this article.


I'm wondering if trendy has even read anything, or looking for more people to post here, before replying officially.  Like "We have taken consideration of adding it back" or "We are not adding it back"


But whatever. Most people from DD1, Tower defense was fun. It is not fun when you have to go around whacking and slashing all over the map because your towers don't do crap. I might as well go play a MMO RPG game like Terra or Rift, if I wanted that.

I'm just asking for a tower fix, not running all over like a mad man. It is truly killing the meaning of Tower Defense in my opinion. 


So, I'm highly considering about going back to DD1 till this is fixed. If it isnt, I can kiss dd2 goodbye, the original is still better in my opinion.

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Will everyone Pls stop saying  Hyperbole. i cannot understand it in the contexts y'all use. 

I only speak american. 

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