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Cavespider

Give us back Defense Speed

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@Syclic quote:

The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

Just gonna leave this here... :)

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@Mr Waffles quote:

I'm glad speed is gone.  Damage stats ADD damage,  Speed stats Multiply damage.  If they put anything else in the game that adds damage they would also have to consider it being multiplied by speed.   So it's  like .. if they make a mistake and add a weapon that does +500 tower damage .. then oops you've got players doing 500 + their say their base damage of 1000 so 1500.   The same mistake with speed in the game and say a player does 100 damage with a  .10 speed (x10 speed modifier)   and you get a player who is doing 5000 damage.  Taking out speed stats probably makes the game easier to balance.  I'd rather have a balanced game without speed then an unbalanced game with speed.

I agree cannon / fireball towers look a little slow and could fire a bit faster.  I don't think speed needs to be a modifiable stat though.    Everyone's goal is to get the highest DPS.  I don't see why people would care what stat they are upping to get higher dps... I don't.    I think restrictions like this force players to use strategy more.  With low speed you have to use other towers like walls / ice tower / geyser to slow down creeps.  I think it'd make more sense to have some towers fire fast and others fire slow, like having a machine gun tower that fires super fast and a rocket tower that fires slow but does a ton of damage.  With speed as a stat you can't do that without game balance being broken.. or you have to scale it back until it's not really worth getting anyway.   

They made it work in DD1. 

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@MaJean quote:


@Mr Waffles quote:

I'm glad speed is gone.  Damage stats ADD damage,  Speed stats Multiply damage.  If they put anything else in the game that adds damage they would also have to consider it being multiplied by speed.   So it's  like .. if they make a mistake and add a weapon that does +500 tower damage .. then oops you've got players doing 500 + their say their base damage of 1000 so 1500.   The same mistake with speed in the game and say a player does 100 damage with a  .10 speed (x10 speed modifier)   and you get a player who is doing 5000 damage.  Taking out speed stats probably makes the game easier to balance.  I'd rather have a balanced game without speed then an unbalanced game with speed.

I agree cannon / fireball towers look a little slow and could fire a bit faster.  I don't think speed needs to be a modifiable stat though.    Everyone's goal is to get the highest DPS.  I don't see why people would care what stat they are upping to get higher dps... I don't.    I think restrictions like this force players to use strategy more.  With low speed you have to use other towers like walls / ice tower / geyser to slow down creeps.  I think it'd make more sense to have some towers fire fast and others fire slow, like having a machine gun tower that fires super fast and a rocket tower that fires slow but does a ton of damage.  With speed as a stat you can't do that without game balance being broken.. or you have to scale it back until it's not really worth getting anyway.   

They made it work in DD1. 

He must have hated DD1 then

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Critical Chance does not appear on items as a primary or secondary stat but can appear on Skill Spheres and passives.

https://www.dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/121793/see-answer

it would seem people in their company do not even know what is going on with stats, we get no benefit from the crit chance rolling on gear atm. What a huge mess "Working as intended" and the community manager can not even come on and give a response.


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oh yea so to get that crit chance you have to give up valuable range slots and tower damage or speed to get, and if you're crit damage is not high enough you do less than normal damage what a joke

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I believe they are overthinking the game this time around. Too much asking the community. Just make a game already. DD1 was easily the most enjoyable experience I´ve ever had with a game so just continue down that road Trendy. Abilities suck. I never use abilities for said reason. Towers don´t feel like they deliver damage. Heck, my hero doesn´t feel like he´s delivering damage. Get rid of combos. I mean it. Thats why they cant balance the game.


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o.O so you'd prefer people just have a generic wall, tower, aura, trap to do DPS with?


ANY special effect that gets tagged on, knockup, stun, knockback, stacking DoT, etc will be overblown to stupid proportions with defense speed.  They needed to get rid of it if they want any sort of creative towers/interactions down the line


Sorry man, if you want generic towers that work with defense speed then play DD1 - that game still runs fine afaik.  Let's try and be more creative with DD2

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@Pachipachio quote:

o.O so you'd prefer people just have a generic wall, tower, aura, trap to do DPS with?


ANY special effect that gets tagged on, knockup, stun, knockback, stacking DoT, etc will be overblown to stupid proportions with defense speed.  They needed to get rid of it if they want any sort of creative towers/interactions down the line


Sorry man, if you want generic towers that work with defense speed then play DD1 - that game still runs fine afaik.  Let's try and be more creative with DD2

by you're logic remove tower attack that is generic, oh so is tower health and ect. traps could have had a hard cap for speed to stop perm a stun combos. Lets add crit/crit damage that has never been done before in a game oh wait.... its generic.

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@Cavespider quote:

by you're logic remove tower attack that is generic, oh so is tower health and ect. traps could have had a hard cap for speed to stop perm a stun combos. Lets had crit/crit damage that has never been done before in a game oh wait.... its generic.

A hard cap...?  That's effectively like removing attack speed and just making people figure out exactly how much defense speed you need on gear so that you don't go overboard. 

BE HONEST HERE, you just like the -feel- of fast attacking towers and that's impeding your enjoyment of the game?  Because we're not talking balance/mechanics here, right?  You're not saying that it isn't possible to progress in the game without defense speed, ya?


As for your response to "generic"... in DD1 it is virtually impossible to tag knock up, stun, stacking DoT, knockback, and probably a lot of other affixes that haven't been demonstrated in DD2 yet because of variable tower speeds.  It's too difficult to balance a 1second stun when a tower's attack speed can range from 5seconds to .23 seconds in that game.  That's what I meant


@MaJean quote:

Psychopathio: Whats creative about boring?

Are you trying to have an actual discussion with me or just be rude?

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@Pachipachio quote:


@Cavespider quote:

by you're logic remove tower attack that is generic, oh so is tower health and ect. traps could have had a hard cap for speed to stop perm a stun combos. Lets had crit/crit damage that has never been done before in a game oh wait.... its generic.

A hard cap...?  That's effectively like removing attack speed and just making people figure out exactly how much defense speed you need on gear so that you don't go overboard. 

BE HONEST HERE, you just like the -feel- of fast attacking towers and that's impeding your enjoyment of the game?  Because we're not talking balance/mechanics here, right?  You're not saying that it isn't possible to progress in the game without defense speed, ya?


As for your response to "generic"... in DD1 it is virtually impossible to tag knock up, stun, stacking DoT, knockback, and probably a lot of other affixes that haven't been demonstrated in DD2 yet because of variable tower speeds.  It's too difficult to balance a 1second stun when a tower's attack speed can range from 5seconds to .23 seconds in that game.  That's what I meant


@MaJean quote:

Psychopathio: Whats creative about boring?

Are you trying to have an actual discussion with me or just be rude?

Choking gas trap stunned, removing attack speed has nurtured towers. DD1 had a HUGE diminishing returns on attack speed after a point

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@Pachipachio quote:


@Cavespider quote:

by you're logic remove tower attack that is generic, oh so is tower health and ect. traps could have had a hard cap for speed to stop perm a stun combos. Lets had crit/crit damage that has never been done before in a game oh wait.... its generic.

A hard cap...?  That's effectively like removing attack speed and just making people figure out exactly how much defense speed you need on gear so that you don't go overboard. 

BE HONEST HERE, you just like the -feel- of fast attacking towers and that's impeding your enjoyment of the game?  Because we're not talking balance/mechanics here, right?  You're not saying that it isn't possible to progress in the game without defense speed, ya?


As for your response to "generic"... in DD1 it is virtually impossible to tag knock up, stun, stacking DoT, knockback, and probably a lot of other affixes that haven't been demonstrated in DD2 yet because of variable tower speeds.  It's too difficult to balance a 1second stun when a tower's attack speed can range from 5seconds to .23 seconds in that game.  That's what I meant


@MaJean quote:

Psychopathio: Whats creative about boring?

Are you trying to have an actual discussion with me or just be rude?

We indeed have a difference of opinion. Sorry if I was being rude. I was. But I think people like us will never agree. At least not on this game. I loved the fact that I could mold my build just as I wanted in DD1. Now it feels like... you put whatever gives the most dps in each lane. 

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@MaJean quote:We indeed have a difference of opinion. Sorry if I was being rude. I was. But I think people like us will never agree. At least not on this game. I loved the fact that I could mould my build just as I wanted in DD1. Now it feels like... you put whatever gives the most dps in each lane. 

I think there could be a really good point to be had with the effect on people's FUN in the game with faster attacking towers, but it does rub me the wrong way when a metric ton of hyperbole is being thrown around, "ITS NO LONGER A TOWER DEFENSE GAME BECAUSE MY TOWERS ATTACK SLOW" "I CAN'T BEAT MAPS WITHOUT DEFENSE SPEED"

Devs should DEFINITELY be made aware of people experiencing a huge diminishment of fun... but that's what the conversation should be about - NOT hyperbole made to just put people in a frenzy or to let off steam about a game a day after a large change in mechanics and subsequent wipe


If you and others' goals here are not to burn the game to the ground and actually inspire the devs to change the game after the first few days of the patch then I'd really urge against the kind of strategy that resorts to, "devs don't know anything", "just make it like DD1" etc etc.  It offers no real insight and ignores the core aspects of DD2 that are supposed to make the game different, and more enjoyable, than DD1


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@Pendragon quote:


@Syclic quote:

The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

Just gonna leave this here... :)

Quoted for truth.

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@Pachipachio quote:


@MaJean quote:We indeed have a difference of opinion. Sorry if I was being rude. I was. But I think people like us will never agree. At least not on this game. I loved the fact that I could mould my build just as I wanted in DD1. Now it feels like... you put whatever gives the most dps in each lane. 

I think there could be a really good point to be had with the effect on people's FUN in the game with faster attacking towers, but it does rub me the wrong way when a metric ton of hyperbole is being thrown around, "ITS NO LONGER A TOWER DEFENSE GAME BECAUSE MY TOWERS ATTACK SLOW" "I CAN'T BEAT MAPS WITHOUT DEFENSE SPEED"

Devs should DEFINITELY be made aware of people experiencing a huge diminishment of fun... but that's what the conversation should be about - NOT hyperbole made to just put people in a frenzy or to let off steam about a game a day after a large change in mechanics and subsequent wipe


If you and others' goals here are not to burn the game to the ground and actually inspire the devs to change the game after the first few days of the patch then I'd really urge against the kind of strategy that resorts to, "devs don't know anything", "just make it like DD1" etc etc.  It offers no real insight and ignores the core aspects of DD2 that are supposed to make the game different, and more enjoyable, than DD1


Nope not making excuses for company's any more. This is a business I do not need to sugar cote it. They made a big change with out asking the people who paid to help shape the game, Do I really think they would change it back, no not really company's have a tendency to not admit mistakes.

 Is it a mistake from the people who are voicing an opinion most say yes. This company can not afford a failure like EA or the other Triple A producers I want the game to succeed but when the community manager can not even post on a big topic. (I am positive employees have read over this post) I support the game any way I can. I have spent over $200 on this game because I know it takes money to make the wheels turn. I REALLY want a good game but this was slap in the face

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@Cavespider quote:

Nope not making excuses for company's any more. This is a business I do not need to sugar cote it. They made a big change with out asking the people who paid to help shape the game, Do I really think they would change it back, no not really company's have a tendency to not admit mistakes.

 Is it a mistake from the people who are voicing an opinion most say yes. This company can not afford a failure like EA or the other Triple A producers I want the game to succeed but when the community manager can not even post on a big topic. (I am positive employees have read over this post) I support the game any way I can. I have spent over $200 on this game because I know it takes money to make the wheels turn. I REALLY want a good game but this was slap in the face

You're totally not blowing this way out of proportion. Definitely not.


What would you actually expect the community manager to say? The only real thing that he should say is play the game first and then give feedback. Not hyperbole, but constructive feedback.


The players had over 2 months since the announcement of Defense Speed being taken off of the list of secondary stats rolled on gear to voice their concerns. They read all the feedback on the idea of it and did not see any legitimate reason not to implement the change. Where were you before the patch came out? your profile doesn't even show any involvement in the forums before the patch came out.

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@Syclic quote:

What would you actually expect the community manager to say? The only real thing that he should say is play the game first and then give feedback. Not hyperbole, but constructive feedback.

This.  Although I'm positive that he reads these threads, it's also his job to NOT feed the trolls.  

As has been stated several times, not only is there nothing wrong with the mechanic of having no tower speed (see a bunch of examples from earlier in the thread), but nobody really knows how it works out in endgame.  

Obviously, my prepatch strategy of just throw up a giant pile of cannons and then AFK doesnt work anymore.  The more I play postpatch, the more I find myself using defenses from multiple heroes to make an effective lane, since the squire-only method from before doesn't have the same oomph.

<sarcasm> Woah! it's almost like they thought of that, and added the ability to have all four characters on a solo game! </end sarcasm>


TL;DR

Losing defense speed is fine, balance tweaks are surely in our future.  Isom is far too smart to poke his nose into a thread with the kind of attitude this one has mostly shown.


-Stretch

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@stretchyalien quote:


@Syclic quote:

What would you actually expect the community manager to say? The only real thing that he should say is play the game first and then give feedback. Not hyperbole, but constructive feedback.

This.  Although I'm positive that he reads these threads, it's also his job to NOT feed the trolls.  

As has been stated several times, not only is there nothing wrong with the mechanic of having no tower speed (see a bunch of examples from earlier in the thread), but nobody really knows how it works out in endgame.  

Obviously, my prepatch strategy of just throw up a giant pile of cannons and then AFK doesnt work anymore.  The more I play postpatch, the more I find myself using defenses from multiple heroes to make an effective lane, since the squire-only method from before doesn't have the same oomph.

<sarcasm> Woah! it's almost like they thought of that, and added the ability to have all four characters on a solo game! </end sarcasm>


TL;DR

Losing defense speed is fine, balance tweaks are surely in our future.  Isom is far too smart to poke his nose into a thread with the kind of attitude this one has mostly shown.


-Stretch

use more daggers in you're next post laughing at this. Let me put this short they will fail hard with a FTP model if they do not make a good game, DD1 was successful for a list of reasons, change it too much and you move away from what the fan base liked and take the risk of failing. I will not drop another dollar in this game until vast improvements are made. Just me you say well we will see will we not. Hope you enjoy paying all the bills for them with that attitude. I have the right to tell them how it is and choose where I put my money. If they do not like it, my money will move. Its a job make money or fail 

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You seem to be under the impression that Trendy is obligated to make the game look exactly how YOU, personally, want it to look.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they "failed."  If you want DD1 revamped, they made DDE.  See how well that worked?  There were core changes that needed to be made to move past DD1, and they're on the right track.

Has it occurred to you that your comment "most of the people posting here want defense speed back" is only true because the vast majority of players are..... playing?  

Feel free to leave the game though.  Thanks for the donation, I'll stick around and reap the benefits.


-Stretch

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@MaJean quote:

If you want to talk mechanics, I can just revert your attention to the broken abilities. I NEVER use abilities because they just don´t work. It´s like the devs are sitting between two chairs. Should we make it a hack and slash.... or a tower defense.. The result is somewhere in between, and not in a sexy way. 

So basically they finally managed to actually make it what DD (both 1 and 2) were advertised from the start, a hybrid RPG/TD, and not jsut another pure TD, that we already have millions of on the market

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@stretchyalien quote:

You seem to be under the impression that Trendy is obligated to make the game look exactly how YOU, personally, want it to look.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they "failed."  If you want DD1 revamped, they made DDE.  See how well that worked?  There were core changes that needed to be made to move past DD1, and they're on the right track.

Has it occurred to you that your comment "most of the people posting here want defense speed back" is only true because the vast majority of players are..... playing?  

Feel free to leave the game though.  Thanks for the donation, I'll stick around and reap the benefits.


-Stretch

Na just going to ignore you're bait posts from now on gl to you

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Calm down, defense speed is still in the game, you just get a whole lot less.

Though it has made the game seem less enjoyable, over time as people and yourself get used to its absence, you won't even feel the change.

Furthermore the new update has only recently been released, you can except some pretty hefty bug fixing or even game changes coming along in the next few weeks.

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