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Cavespider

Give us back Defense Speed

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@Glazy quote:

People complaining 1 day after the patch when they haven't had time to gear appropriately ><.  At least try before you come and moan.

I do not need to stop and sit on train tracks wondering if I will ever get hit by train, grind for gear when there is already a problem

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@Glazy quote:

People complaining 1 day after the patch when they haven't had time to gear appropriately ><.  At least try before you come and moan.

Are you saying we shouldn´t have oppinions?

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*Sigh*

Defense Speed. One of the most loved stat in the game. Is gone... Pretty much.


Question:

Is this even a tower defense game anymore? 

It seems more like Hack and Slash to me.


You remove one of the most important aspects of the towers. Speed.

This alone killed the game for me.

Not to mention your combos you spent so much work on, is now worthless, due to this nerf. 


I feel that towers are just a small minority and inconvenience to mobs now. The aspect of the game has drifted away from Towers. As it so seems. Towards to Heroes [Hack & Slash] Which for me, isnt even close to being fun for me.


So... My review on this patch:

And I know its pre alpha... But its my review and I'll continue to be patient 

Pros:

  • New difficulties 
  • Level cap 50
  • Pets
  • 4 cards in hero deck
  • I for inventory
  • Improved match making

Cons:

  • Not a fan of the loot system yet
  • Gold is hard to get
  • Might as well get rid of towers and just get blockades'
  • Archer and Wizard class is so weak now... Its unreal.
  • Got wiped for this crap.
  • Spent 100 hours on this game for pretty much nothing


 

So as for me. I'm just hacking away through the 30's now, hoping what I'm doing now will benefit me at all in the future.


Good Game Trendy... Take a look at DD1 for inspiration please.

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@iSkeptical quote:

I feel that towers are just a small minority and inconvenience to mobs now. The aspect of the game has drifted away from Towers. As it so seems. Towards to Heroes [Hack & Slash] Which for me, isnt even close to being fun for me.

Um, how exactly are you playing?  I'm playing solo with a builder huntress and it would be impossible to defend most maps if my defenses didn't kill most of the enemies.  In ramparts (campaign normal) I even failed once because the lady orc minibosses marched over my poorly built defenses.  I adjusted my strategy and was victorious.  I assure you, defenses are still doing the majority of the work.

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@tdb quote:


@iSkeptical quote:

I feel that towers are just a small minority and inconvenience to mobs now. The aspect of the game has drifted away from Towers. As it so seems. Towards to Heroes [Hack & Slash] Which for me, isnt even close to being fun for me.

Um, how exactly are you playing?  I'm playing solo with a builder huntress and it would be impossible to defend most maps if my defenses didn't kill most of the enemies.  In ramparts (campaign normal) I even failed once because the lady orc minibosses marched over my poorly built defenses.  I adjusted my strategy and was victorious.  I assure you, defenses are still doing the majority of the work.

I had no problem in campaign. Its afterwords when I have issues. Once you start free play, its unreal. 

I see onslaught and end game pretty near impossible to complete, without being completely maxed out in level, and gear. 

Oh by the way. The gear i've seen when im level 30, to upgrade...isn't even in the 20's anymore. Most are level 5. How in the world are you going to get anywhere with that?

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@iSkeptical quote:

*Sigh*

Defense Speed. One of the most loved stat in the game. Is gone... Pretty much.


Question:

Is this even a tower defense game anymore? 

It seems more like Hack and Slash to me.


You remove one of the most important aspects of the towers. Speed.

This alone killed the game for me.

Not to mention your combos you spent so much work on, is now worthless, due to this nerf. 


I feel that towers are just a small minority and inconvenience to mobs now. The aspect of the game has drifted away from Towers. As it so seems. Towards to Heroes [Hack & Slash] Which for me, isnt even close to being fun for me.


So... My review on this patch:

And I know its pre alpha... But its my review and I'll continue to be patient 

Pros:

  • New difficulties 
  • Level cap 50
  • Pets
  • 4 cards in hero deck
  • I for inventory
  • Improved match making

Cons:

  • Not a fan of the loot system yet
  • Gold is hard to get
  • Might as well get rid of towers and just get blockades'
  • Archer and Wizard class is so weak now... Its unreal.
  • Got wiped for this crap.
  • Spent 100 hours on this game for pretty much nothing


 

So as for me. I'm just hacking away through the 30's now, hoping what I'm doing now will benefit me at all in the future.


Good Game Trendy... Take a look at DD1 for inspiration please.

Couldn´t have said it better myself. It´s like it´s a whole new dev team. Did anyone in this dev team even make DD1? Oh... and bring back multiple projectiles. Why even remove it? Geez...

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This entire thread is absurd. The game is objectively better now. Without having such broken things in the first place you would have never lusted for it. Defense speed virtually infinitely scaling is bad for the game. End of story.


if you want to get ludicrous speeds, wait for it to hit consoles and hack the *** out of it like everyone does for D3.

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In my opinion, the Devs should bring back Tower Range and Tower Attack Speed stats and add the ability to play in infinite mode after completing the set number of waves in a level. This is what made DD1 fun, the challenge was not trying to beat the mission, but trying to reach the highest wave that you possibly can. Even with the best gear, the "overpowered" builds would eventually reach a limit and be overran by the enemies. Onslaught is an interesting game mode and delivers a unique challenge to the game, however, it is no substitution to endless waves on any map that allows you to push your characters gear and your own ability to the limits. This allows the casual player who only want to get in a short amount of time the ability to do just that, while it allows the more hardcore players to to obtain high level gear, while still playing on the normal game maps.

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@Syclic quote:

This entire thread is absurd. The game is objectively better now. Without having such broken things in the first place you would have never lusted for it. Defense speed virtually infinitely scaling is bad for the game. End of story.


if you want to get ludicrous speeds, wait for it to hit consoles and hack the *** out of it like everyone does for D3.

you are the minority devs should look at this and see the majority want it back and AGAIN you can change HOW IT SCALES Jesus you did not even read all the posts did you

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I'm going to keep boosting this thread. Idc.

It was a good aspect to the game..

So... if you are considering posting a comment, I'd suggest you to read ALL of the comments. 

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@Syclic quote:

This entire thread is absurd. The game is objectively better now. Without having such broken things in the first place you would have never lusted for it. Defense speed virtually infinitely scaling is bad for the game. End of story.


if you want to get ludicrous speeds, wait for it to hit consoles and hack the *** out of it like everyone does for D3.

You obviously never ever played DD1.

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I honestly fail to see how Defense Speed was a broken thing in the first place.

There were two problems with Defense Speed:

[1] How *much* it scaled, and

[2] Allowing broken combinations (Geyser and Lightning Aura).

The concept itself wasn't broken, just specific implementation and aspects.

To balance [1], you can just fix the scaling so it doesn't get out of hand. If Tower Damage scaled too much, that would also be broken (i.e. say a Flameburst Tower did 1m damage). But it wouldn't make sense to go removing Tower Defense as a stat. I'm not entirely sure how the Devs reached the conclusion that the solution would be to remove Defense Speed altogether.

To balance [2], you can just *fix the broken combinations*. For example... stop Geyser scaling with Defense Speed. Or scale it a lot less (see fix above). Or let mobs become immune after X number of electrocutions... possibly after just one. There are much easier, less overwhelmingly destructive ways to solve the broken combination, then completely rewriting the gameplay mechanic.

The thing is they gave us Crit Damage as a replacement for Defense Speed; sort of. The thing is, if Crit Damage scaled too much, *that would also be broken*. Conclusion? Hint - it's not the stat that's the problem, it's the scaling. Let's hope it isn't possible to abuse Crit Damage in the end game, because someone might decide that stat needs removing too...

Someone mentioned how poor Harpoons are under the current system - the fact is they were poor before the update, and are similarly poor now (their speed doesn't scale, but then neither does anything else in comparison). The fact that they do not out-damage a Cannon tower (total damage, not single target damage) is pretty poor really, and the only thing they have as an advantage is greater range (and much poorer single target DPS).

While I would love to see Defense Speed come back (in a not-broken way), I simply cannot see that happening, because [1] the Devs would have to admit it was a bad decision, and [2] they would have to throw away all the work they've done on this massive patch. I'd love them to prove me wrong :P There's not going to be an influence vote on it either, because if there was going to be one, then *before* they worked on this massive patch would have been the time to do it.

Sadly, I've already lamented before about the direction the game is going (more action, less TD) with the reduced number of towers, poorer options (i.e. even fewer of those towers are feasible), and this just feels like another step in that direction.

I'll keep giving the game a chance. But I have been, and continue to be, somewhat pessimistic about the gameplay. Some people might like it more, certainly, but I definitely think it's a step down from DD1/DDE.

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@Decadent quote:

I honestly fail to see how Defense Speed was a broken thing in the first place.

There were two problems with Defense Speed:

[1] How *much* it scaled, and

[2] Allowing broken combinations (Geyser and Lightning Aura).

The concept itself wasn't broken, just specific implementation and aspects.

To balance [1], you can just fix the scaling so it doesn't get out of hand. If Tower Damage scaled too much, that would also be broken (i.e. say a Flameburst Tower did 1m damage). But it wouldn't make sense to go removing Tower Defense as a stat. I'm not entirely sure how the Devs reached the conclusion that the solution would be to remove Defense Speed altogether.

To balance [2], you can just *fix the broken combinations*. For example... stop Geyser scaling with Defense Speed. Or scale it a lot less (see fix above). Or let mobs become immune after X number of electrocutions... possibly after just one. There are much easier, less overwhelmingly destructive ways to solve the broken combination, then completely rewriting the gameplay mechanic.

The thing is they gave us Crit Damage as a replacement for Defense Speed; sort of. The thing is, if Crit Damage scaled too much, *that would also be broken*. Conclusion? Hint - it's not the stat that's the problem, it's the scaling. Let's hope it isn't possible to abuse Crit Damage in the end game, because someone might decide that stat needs removing too...

Someone mentioned how poor Harpoons are under the current system - the fact is they were poor before the update, and are similarly poor now (their speed doesn't scale, but then neither does anything else in comparison). The fact that they do not out-damage a Cannon tower (total damage, not single target damage) is pretty poor really, and the only thing they have as an advantage is greater range (and much poorer single target DPS).

While I would love to see Defense Speed come back (in a not-broken way), I simply cannot see that happening, because [1] the Devs would have to admit it was a bad decision, and [2] they would have to throw away all the work they've done on this massive patch. I'd love them to prove me wrong :P There's not going to be an influence vote on it either, because if there was going to be one, then *before* they worked on this massive patch would have been the time to do it.

Sadly, I've already lamented before about the direction the game is going (more action, less TD) with the reduced number of towers, poorer options (i.e. even fewer of those towers are feasible), and this just feels like another step in that direction.

I'll keep giving the game a chance. But I have been, and continue to be, somewhat pessimistic about the gameplay. Some people might like it more, certainly, but I definitely think it's a step down from DD1/DDE.

Lot of thought was taken place.

And I agree.

I don't think the Devs will add defense speed back. But... If you think about it. It shouldn't break anything to what they have done to rid of it. Defense speed still exists with spheres, so I assume another wipe wouldn't be required. However... I do agree with you that they probably won't admit they made a mistake. 

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Crit dmg. Comon. In a tower defense game I like that I know exactly what my towers do. Dmg and speed. Then I can calculate how much to put in each lane and I know it will be taken care of with no "surprises". Crit dmg is like rolling a dice, and I don´t like that. I like having the opportunity to AFK if I know I have a good build. 

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@Cavespider quote:

you are the minority devs should look at this and see the majority want it back and AGAIN you can change HOW IT SCALES Jesus you did not even read all the posts did you

Everyone that posts in the forums is a minority. I am a smaller minority than most, but don't trick yourself into believing that just because a handful of people got salty and came to post on the forums that a majority of the players can't play the game without defense speed. Jesus, what's punctuation? 


@MaJean quote:

You obviously never ever played DD1.

579 hours on steam, but no, I didn't play DD1 at all.


@iSkeptical quote:

I'm going to keep boosting this thread. Idc.

It was a good aspect to the game..

So... if you are considering posting a comment, I'd suggest you to read ALL of the comments. 

The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

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@Syclic quote:


@Cavespider quote:

you are the minority devs should look at this and see the majority want it back and AGAIN you can change HOW IT SCALES Jesus you did not even read all the posts did you

Everyone that posts in the forums is a minority. I am a smaller minority than most, but don't trick yourself into believing that just because a handful of people got salty and came to post on the forums that a majority of the players can't play the game without defense speed. Jesus, what's punctuation? 


@MaJean quote:

You obviously never ever played DD1.

579 hours on steam, but no, I didn't play DD1 at all.


@iSkeptical quote:

I'm going to keep boosting this thread. Idc.

It was a good aspect to the game..

So... if you are considering posting a comment, I'd suggest you to read ALL of the comments. 

The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

If you played DD1 we wouldnt have a disagreement.

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@MaJean quote:

If you played DD1 we wouldnt have a disagreement.

So you agree that defense speed is better off how it is now then. Good.

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@Syclic quote:


@MaJean quote:

If you played DD1 we wouldnt have a disagreement.

So you agree that defense speed is better off how it is now then. Good.

In DD1 I had an endless barrage of projectiles from my towers, it seemed like a perpetual fist slamming the mobs, and it was awesome. Thats what Im saying, I´m sorry if I didnt quite spell it out that I kinda liked defense speed.

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@MaJean quote:


@Syclic quote:


@Cavespider quote:

you are the minority devs should look at this and see the majority want it back and AGAIN you can change HOW IT SCALES Jesus you did not even read all the posts did you

Everyone that posts in the forums is a minority. I am a smaller minority than most, but don't trick yourself into believing that just because a handful of people got salty and came to post on the forums that a majority of the players can't play the game without defense speed. Jesus, what's punctuation? 


@MaJean quote:

You obviously never ever played DD1.

579 hours on steam, but no, I didn't play DD1 at all.


@iSkeptical quote:

I'm going to keep boosting this thread. Idc.

It was a good aspect to the game..

So... if you are considering posting a comment, I'd suggest you to read ALL of the comments. 

The assertion of every reply in this thread is that the game is literally unplayable without having defense speed on gear. NONE of the people posting in the thread have experienced what end game play is like, nor tried to adjust their playstyle to fit how the game works now.

If you played DD1 we wouldnt have a disagreement.

Unfortunately for you it means nothing if they do not post the majority of the people posting is what counts, if you do not vote then you're option will not matter. Out of all who vote, the majority wins its called democracy. Every thing else is a moot point and you failed to read posts on scaling, you are just here to argue. At this point you can not even bring a valid argument to the table.

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In DD1 you can put points wherever you want,  tower speed, range hero dmg etc. DD2 is a step back. And thats a well known fact. 

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Do Trendy members only answer to game bug issues or would you like to address this tower speed thing?

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@MaJean quote:

In DD1 you can put points wherever you want,  tower speed, range hero dmg etc. DD2 is a step back. And thats a well known fact. 

Among some people it's a fact.  I prefer a customizable sphere system to a permanent commitment skill point system... it's just functionally better for the player 100/100 times.   I can't take my max lv apprentice in DD1 and "experiment" with an all ability power build.  Well, I basically could with hacked gear but that's neither here nor there


That complaint is just like the one issued by a lot of the people here for the removal of speed.  It was a stupid stat to have when there are plans for new towers, further level increases, and more difficult content. 

If you neuter speed to "scale it down" at a rate equal to the addition of content you might as well just remove it and put towers at the speed that the mechanics run smoothest (re-targeting + animations).


I LOVE these changes.  All the heroes are viable and any solo player will have a tough time figuring out the optimal 4 hero setup when you need physical AoE, magical AoE, physical single target, magical single target, high hp walls, and a DPS hero.  Prior to this anyone not using just monk+huntress even in content 100x more difficult than wyvern den incursion is a fool


This change is LITERALLY equal to the "scaling down" of defense speed and the nerfing of geysers as so many people have hypothesized would have been a better change.  For clarity, in this metaphor neutered defense speed = increase in damage similar to the addition of crit chance and crit damage and the nerfing of geysers is so that the ratio of recharge to time-knocked-up is static.. viola, I'm pretty sure everyone gets what they wanted - mechanically


Now, demanding towers attack faster because it makes you feel better and thus would enjoy the game more, that's another thing, and a very relevant thing for developers to keep in mind - not trying to be sarcastic here.  But if anyone wants to make this "tower speed" debacle about mechanics... pls no

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I'm glad speed is gone.  Damage stats ADD damage,  Speed stats Multiply damage.  If they put anything else in the game that adds damage they would also have to consider it being multiplied by speed.   So it's  like .. if they make a mistake and add a weapon that does +500 tower damage .. then oops you've got players doing 500 + their say their base damage of 1000 so 1500.   The same mistake with speed in the game and say a player does 100 damage with a  .10 speed (x10 speed modifier)   and you get a player who is doing 5000 damage.  Taking out speed stats probably makes the game easier to balance.  I'd rather have a balanced game without speed then an unbalanced game with speed.

I agree cannon / fireball towers look a little slow and could fire a bit faster.  I don't think speed needs to be a modifiable stat though.    Everyone's goal is to get the highest DPS.  I don't see why people would care what stat they are upping to get higher dps... I don't.    I think restrictions like this force players to use strategy more.  With low speed you have to use other towers like walls / ice tower / geyser to slow down creeps.  I think it'd make more sense to have some towers fire fast and others fire slow, like having a machine gun tower that fires super fast and a rocket tower that fires slow but does a ton of damage.  With speed as a stat you can't do that without game balance being broken.. or you have to scale it back until it's not really worth getting anyway.   

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If you want to talk mechanics, I can just revert your attention to the broken abilities. I NEVER use abilities because they just don´t work. It´s like the devs are sitting between two chairs. Should we make it a hack and slash.... or a tower defense.. The result is somewhere in between, and not in a sexy way. 

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