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Cavespider

Give us back Defense Speed

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@Mr Waffles quote:

I'm glad speed is gone.  Damage stats ADD damage,  Speed stats Multiply damage.  If they put anything else in the game that adds damage they would also have to consider it being multiplied by speed.   So it's  like .. if they make a mistake and add a weapon that does +500 tower damage .. then oops you've got players doing 500 + their say their base damage of 1000 so 1500.   The same mistake with speed in the game and say a player does 100 damage with a  .10 speed (x10 speed modifier)   and you get a player who is doing 5000 damage.  Taking out speed stats probably makes the game easier to balance.  I'd rather have a balanced game without speed then an unbalanced game with speed.

I agree cannon / fireball towers look a little slow and could fire a bit faster.  I don't think speed needs to be a modifiable stat though.    Everyone's goal is to get the highest DPS.  I don't see why people would care what stat they are upping to get higher dps... I don't.    I think restrictions like this force players to use strategy more.  With low speed you have to use other towers like walls / ice tower / geyser to slow down creeps.  I think it'd make more sense to have some towers fire fast and others fire slow, like having a machine gun tower that fires super fast and a rocket tower that fires slow but does a ton of damage.  With speed as a stat you can't do that without game balance being broken.. or you have to scale it back until it's not really worth getting anyway.   

Yes because simple math formulas confuse programmers....


as to you second paragraph, soft caps and hard caps would work wonders. Diminishing returns at certain break points are a tried and true fix for not letting stat inflation get out of hand AND!!! guess what then people can build how they want.


Throwing this out there too the first stat/spec trees they had in DD2 were far superior to spheres and you could respec and play with different build SOOOOO much more fun and it let you shore up gaps in your armor stats.

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@GummiBear quote:


@MaJean quote:

If you want to talk mechanics, I can just revert your attention to the broken abilities. I NEVER use abilities because they just don´t work. It´s like the devs are sitting between two chairs. Should we make it a hack and slash.... or a tower defense.. The result is somewhere in between, and not in a sexy way. 

So basically they finally managed to actually make it what DD (both 1 and 2) were advertised from the start, a hybrid RPG/TD, and not jsut another pure TD, that we already have millions of on the market

The whole point of the RPG stats is so you could build and play it the way YOU wanted.

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Okay so pretty much everyone agrees that removing defense speed was not a good idea. But are there any actual solutions? They can't just make the game as overpowered as it was. This thread is really big so I am sure that Trendy will notice any suggestions.

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We still are in the dark about this. All we got was "we are reading everyones opinion. and stop attacking each other." 

Why are the devs not responding to any of this. This is seriously breaking how the game works. Slap some DR on defense speed until you can actually think of a better solution than just taking it out. Its like you guys do some great things to the game, but then put 0.00001 thought into other things such as the iPwr and the removal of defense speed. 


Ballistas are utterly useless right now. I dont care what any of you say about placement and blah blah. They have horrible aiming issues half the time and take a year to fire. And when they do fire its probably at some trash mob to the right of the line up and misses everything else. Waste, just like the training dummy. And boost aura. And arcane barrier. And poison tower. 

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I see a lot of blanket statements in here, and have to wonder have far the players have advanced, whom are stating towers are useless. While I agree, they start off slow and weak in comparison to old, they get the job done. As you advance, they become much more capable and you have numerous ways to build out (crit build or defense power build. So while the game is much more challenging, I enjoy it and encourage them to develop more in this direction.

With creative strategy and quality (in my opinion) hero play, a friend and I (without voice comm) duo'd Liferoot Hard with my 38 squire and his 35 apprentice (thank you rper_rrkinia). Roughly 1100 defense power each, wearing mostly ilvl80ish gear. We had no issues and have since continued trying progressively harder challenges. It's doable, but- and this will be hard for some of you, admit you can improve how you play.

Don't place your faults on the developers. Learn the new mechanics and try things. It's no longer a game where you can afk out after a few days of farming gear. Not yet anyway, but I honestly think we'll get to that point on most difficulties too.

Some ideas for those of you stuck in the attack speed is everything mentality:

Crit damage and chance scale well and are the most cost effective stats in the game. Meaning that a base level, non upgraded tower, still fully benefits from both your crit chance and your damage. Thus, you can literally build effective traps/auras/towers for cheap. The same can be said for defense health for survivability.

Further, at level 40, you begin to open up some creative spec options via large spheres. For builders, you can choose between 15% chance on defenses taking damage to increase defense speed by 100% for 5 seconds or a similar sphere for crit (just look at the merchant). There is also an option for your hero attacks to oil, which works amazing for any map where you're using flame towers.

This post is getting insanely long, but simply put, the game is in a great state right now (minus the known bugs/exploits). Get out there, be creative, and try something new.

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Idk how other people are doing betsy but poison tower is currently my highest DPS tower


It's got a use against things that don't move, like lightning strikes aura did pre-patch

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The only use I've found for Crit Chances/Damage, and you need to stack a good amount of chance (talking at least 15%), is Electric Aura. The crit damage on it scales SO much I HAD to use it. The regular damage of mine was around 220 a tick, but the crit is up to 550 now. Just got to find which towers scales well with it. On the other side, nearly all of Huntresses traps/pdt scales TERRIBLY, so just focus on DPower unless you add Crit Chance perhaps, but Damage scales bad for Huntress. So monk = go crit!

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The problem was never DS the problem was not having strong enough mobs and difficulties to deal with the intense level of gear pre-patch.

Bring back DS test the difficulties with it and lets see if the game needs harder baddies or even more baddies.

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Everyone, your complaints and ideas are all important to the development of this game, but keep in mind that the game still has a long way to go. Let the devs try to impress you with their plan and if it doesn't work out, then I'm sure they'll go with yours. They're very involved, and they clearly care way more than other devs. They'll do what needs to be done to keep the game afloat.

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After playing a bit and reaching lvl 50 defense speed isn't that necessary to finish later difficulties so just progress and u will see that u don't need it :p

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@Carrylex quote:

After playing a bit and reaching lvl 50 defense speed isn't that necessary to finish later difficulties so just progress and u will see that u don't need it :p

I didn't want to snooze to level 50.. I wanted an exciting screaming trip watching my cannons and towers carve a rapid fire swath thru waves of monsters!

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So, I have got my huntress towers all unlocked. Did a build last night, proxy, then blaze, magic blockades, fireballs, frost, poison. Worked really well. This was just on normal free play on life root solo. 26 app, 21 huntress. I decided to let the air defense go and build around the main crystal.

I feel like I am progressing pretty well playing solo. But, I have kind of lost interest in using the monk which has always been a favorite. Auras and boost feel really weak and my du is better spent elsewhere. Boost could use some work (maybe bump up to 15-20%? and electrics could use a little work. I think electrics would be good around 1.5 speed instead of 2.5. Rate spheres, and armor with the amped up stat would be worth using then. Right now I feel it's been in my best interest to go with dp stats over anything else.

I am playing solo and progressing just fine for the time I get to play. Do I think it is perfectly balanced? At this point, no. That may change as I progress further and it may not. But for now I feel some towers (mainly monk) are not up to par. Haven't found a use for drench yet, will work on that next.

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@Omm quote:

I am playing solo and progressing just fine for the time I get to play. Do I think it is perfectly balanced? At this point, no. That may change as I progress further and it may not. But for now I feel some towers (mainly monk) are not up to par. Haven't found a use for drench yet, will work on that next.

I completely agree on the monk needing some love, it used to be amazing and now I feel it is the weakest hero. At this point with the highest defense power I can manage, and stacking as many on top of each other as possible, the auras still barely even kill the little guys, let alone the big stuff.

Also, drench is supposed to combo with the monk lightning aura for the electrocute effect, but since that has been nerfed so much as well, I do not feel that combo is worth using either, so thats another hit to the monks effectiveness. No idea what the point is of a combo if it doesn't have the umph you would expect from a combo.

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@Cavespider quote:

They said on the dev stream they want to make "Interesting builds" and Defense speed was stale

Interesting builds should at least make some use of combos, but since they nerfed the best combos to oblivion, whats the point? I could understand them being proc'd less frequently, but the strength of the combos should not have been nerfed as well. If the proc rate is crazy low, and the strength is non-existent, why have combos in the first place? That is what the speed was for. Nerfing the strength of the combo would have been an excellent fix when defense speed was insane, but they gave the nerf it should have gotten with defense speed high AND nerfed it by almost completely removing defense speed.

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BRING BACK TOWER SPEED! that's all i can say really. I can't remove the image out of my hand when those harpoons on DD1 were spammin likee crazy. watching the new harpoon makes me want to kill myself slowly and painfuly.

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They buffed the Harpoon base dmg so it isn't completely useless. TBH it's more realistic now, how fast can you fire a ballista considering the fact that you have to re-equipped the ammo every time you fire?

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should've probably not nerfed the stun combo from huntress and monk to 1 second down from 2.5 seconds, because think about it, geyser takes what, 8 seconds to recharge? 2.5 seconds of those the enemies will be stunned, thats not that much, now it being 1 second it makes auras even weaker with even less options to use it.

Besides, what kind of "tactical build" is putting a wall, with a slow turret behind it and then stack as many bombs/balloons/auras , basically everything that stacks, doesn't seem very tactical to me.

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Finally I made it to the end of this thread... Read 95% of the posts and I completely agree with trist... Most people here complaining probably beat the campaign on easy just spamming cannonball towers expecting that to work on an actual map. The devs said in the devstream that they removed dspeed because it was scaled for 25 levels and was a little broken, where it promoted mindless spamming of one tower.

Sure, the game might feel "slow" to you but to me it's more fast paced than ever. You have to actually get out there and defend your towers if you want to win. You want it to be fast like it was pre patch but is sitting afk more action packed than actually playing the game?

The removal of dspeed promotes build diversity and huntress honestly feels op to me. Put a blaze balloon where the long rangers stand and it'll rack up tons of damage while your towers behind a barricade deal with the already weakened mobs... Not to mention dps huntress and ap stacking can get you like 30k dmg on a piercing shot at lvl 40.

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I personally like the new Itemisation, there is many routs to go to stack for defences. I like the new crit idea. But we do not want to have an easy Must have  thing in every gear slot. Give it time, Defense speed might not be needed in order to make an interesting gear system, moving away from stat stick items is 100% better. They just need to enable more smart look less chances to get items that boost other classes would be a more important start than adding defense speed back.

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@Demaier quote:

I don't disagree that the removal of tower speed was a poor decision. They removed it to get rid of some op builds. It feels like instead of fixing the actual issue the sweep it under the rug and those changes impair the rest of the game. Your other complaints though are nothing but annoying. You are literally complaining that a game that is not even in alpha testing yet has no content. They are still playing with things like defense speed and trying to see how they can make the game better than DD1. They already made DD1 why would they want to reinvent the wheel. They are creating new core game mechanics and seeing how players respond. The game is pre-alpha you can't be expecting tons of content. Sure in the future it probably will have tons of content and be much better than DD1 but right now it is in a trial and error state.

I like not having to do defense power and defense speed stack on every gear item possible. This opens up more varried builds.

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@Gunghoe quote:


@Demaier quote:

I don't disagree that the removal of tower speed was a poor decision. They removed it to get rid of some op builds. It feels like instead of fixing the actual issue the sweep it under the rug and those changes impair the rest of the game. Your other complaints though are nothing but annoying. You are literally complaining that a game that is not even in alpha testing yet has no content. They are still playing with things like defense speed and trying to see how they can make the game better than DD1. They already made DD1 why would they want to reinvent the wheel. They are creating new core game mechanics and seeing how players respond. The game is pre-alpha you can't be expecting tons of content. Sure in the future it probably will have tons of content and be much better than DD1 but right now it is in a trial and error state.

I like not having to do defense power and defense speed stack on every gear item possible. This opens up more varried builds.

Exactly! That's the glorious thing about this last patch. If DS were still a thing, you know what I'd stack? Lightning auras in front of every phys resist lanes, and in the other, I'd stack harpoons or something. 

With the removal, while I can understand the frustrations, it encourages different towers, and THAT is a good thing.

I will not deny that a little defense speed would be nice, though. After having chatted with a few guys about it, we've brainstormed that getting a couple of defense speed passively from level 25-50, every time you level up, would be a good way to compensate for the loss of it, without making it overpowered like it was. I'm not sure if it's viable to do it that way, but I think it would be a good middle ground for both sides.

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To give an example of how bad towers are without defense speed, I was in an easy mode Betsy with a lvl 45 Monk.  He put down 5 lightning aura's and guess what, the occasional thing still made it through!!!  Towers are STUPIDLY weak now.  Defense Speed was, IMO, the ONLY thing to possibly compensate for something like that for tower based players.  Now the game is a hack and slasher's dream.  It's not about towers IMO, it's about spamming the handful of attacks you get.

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