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Might as well do a full wipe.


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Eh, I'm just not going to vote on this once, since I really don't care either way.

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As the points stand right now:

Partial Wipe

Points:  5328

People:  137

Points/Person:  38.9

Full Wipe

Points:  6315

People:  265

Points/Person:  23.8


Not a surprise.  Players with lower amounts of influence are likely to have less game time.  Those players have the least to lose so they favor a full wipe.

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@SactoDoug quote:

As the points stand right now:

Partial Wipe

Points:  5328

People:  137

Points/Person:  38.9

Full Wipe

Points:  6315

People:  265

Points/Person:  23.8


Not a surprise.  Players with lower amounts of influence are likely to have less game time.  Those players have the least to lose so they favor a full wipe.

Game time doesn't really reflect influence points at all.  We just came out of influence week, and a lot of people (myself included) dumped a lot of points into it.  I've logged on almost every day and I don't have many points to spend (btw I favor a full wipe).

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WARNING: Incoming sarcasm, because this was painfully obvious.

@Mayonnaise Ph.D. quote:Gem purchased skins. Stuff like the goblin huntress, or the ninja monk.

I'm so glad people bothered to read the options.  Full wipe short-description:

All premium purchases, Early Access, Twitch, and other rewards will be refunded.

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@mokn quote:

The wyvern tokens shouldn't be wiped at all. Atleast refund them in a full wipe.

It's a huge insult to all hardcore testers. My steam review is changing to negative and i reckon many other who don't like this will do the same.

If you don't like the wipe give the game a negative on steam and metacritic.

Maybe I just get you wrong but to me your statement sounds very contradictionary. Please help me realizing what I misunderstand:

I assume you include yourself to those mentioned hardcore testers.

From my understanding testers acutally test the game and don't prioritize extending their personal lead over (common) non-testing players who will join the game at a later time.

Testers should indeed test the game progress. Staying at the level cap will prevent you from telling the devs about the experience new player might get when starting DD2. Of course endgame will be important. Early game is even more important because only a tiny minority will endure a horrible or maybe below average early game progress for getting into a great endgame experience.

I am not sure when the devs announced a potential wipe for the first time. The only thing I can tell for sure is they did at the beginning of November 2014. Since then it has been mentioned quite often.

Now, after this necessary wipe will take place (and they even let us vote about its area of application) you announce giving the game a bad steam review just because you feel like you will be forced to actually test the progress under completely new circumstances. By keeping all those tokens you won't have the chance to seriously test the progress.

Now this is something that can be discussed about because you could argue for the need to test multiple uses for the wyvern tokens at once - so you can give better feedback. Instead you just announce to give the game a bad review and encourage others to do the same. By giving a bad review to a game you are trying to prevent others from playing it. This means you do not want others to play DD2 because your personal point of view is not being considered by the upcoming wipe. Of course I do not know what you are really up to - but regarding your announcement I take the liberty of estimating you want to prevent others from playing this game - because that's what giving a bad review means. You also encourage others to do the same. By thinking about the reason for your wanting to give a bad review sadly only allows one conclusion:

This has nothing to do with testing a game - this is just toxic behaviour.

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Heh, a full wipe means we will have to wait for months (unless Trendy change to amount of Wyvern Token for everything to like 1/10 of what it takes now) to test the "balanced" Uber. With the addition of new Uber, I believe we are going to have 4 new ones, that's like an eternity longer than it should to be able to test for something that need to be tested right away

Again, if it is pre-Alpha, things should all come-easy and go-easy.  Instead of the model we have now, that thing take forever to get. It shouldn't have given some of us the remorse of spending time in the game. 

As a pre-Alpha game, if getting to 50 is going at the rate of 20-25 we now have, it would take a few weeks playing like it is my full time job to get all characters to 50. That means all these contents are now locked behind a pseudo-time gate: you can't get a stage to run faster, you can't start testing stuff like "special delivery" for max leveled content (which by the way, is broken in the newest incursion, still after 3 months).

You will have to spend 3 weeks to get the Wyvern Tokens to see if Trendy did any improvements to it, and another 3 weeks to get the new Uber for your main class.

If the game get wiped again, I will say you all deserved it.

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@SorakaPlz quote:

Heh, a full wipe means we will have to wait for months (unless Trendy change to amount of Wyvern Token for everything to like 1/10 of what it takes now) to test the "balanced" Uber. With the addition of new Uber, I believe we are going to have 4 new ones, that's like an eternity longer than it should to be able to test for something that need to be tested right away

Again, if it is pre-Alpha, things should all come-easy and go-easy.  Instead of the model we have now, that thing take forever to get. It shouldn't have given some of us the remorse of spending time in the game. 

As a pre-Alpha game, if getting to 50 is going at the rate of 20-25 we now have, it would take a few weeks playing like it is my full time job to get all characters to 50. That means all these contents are now locked behind a pseudo-time gate: you can't get a stage to run faster, you can't start testing stuff like "special delivery" for max leveled content (which by the way, is broken in the newest incursion, still after 3 months).

You will have to spend 3 weeks to get the Wyvern Tokens to see if Trendy did any improvements to it, and another 3 weeks to get the new Uber for your main class.

If the game get wiped again, I will say you all deserved it.

I feel the same.  If there is a full wipe, I will quit my "job" as your free play tester.  You don't make players grind out hundreds of hours for end game content in an Alpha.

Either use this like a real Alpha and let your "testers" change stats, items etc at will or treat it like a released product and have them grind it out while earning rewards.  Making people grind then wiping their efforts is a good way to make people quit and leave negative reviews on Steam.

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They should do more frequent wipes imho most the early game gets neglected cause nobody wants to backtrack without a reason and when they do nobody will notice bugs like blocked units etc in other maps because they are stuck to doing 1 or 2 maps cause of the illusion they are upgrading items when really all you ever needed was a helm & medalion to get through the entire game.

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@SactoDoug quote:

...use this like a real Alpha and let your "testers" change stats, items etc at will...

Because that can't possibly go wrong...

There are a few outcomes to doing as such and believe it or not, none of them are a good thing. Don't forget that Trendy is a small team and cannot act with haste upon user feedback.

For one, let's just assume that everyone given modding tools are level-headed with some degree of intelligence and wisdom (obviously not the actual case). The testers would then tinker and experiment and learn how things work and give honest feedback. Then, while the Trendy team analyzes the feedback and begins work on changes and improvements, the testers would do.... what? Nothing, that's what. They already skipped all the farming (and likely the level grinding) to get directly to the testing. More than likely most of them would leave the game on account of nothing else to do.

Now for the even worse scenario: giving the tools to the current players indiscriminately. As is plenty evident from the forums alone, quite a few players would try to use the tools to test without the grind and promptly get confused. Since they skipped the leveling and gear farming, they would not know how the system works and almost certainly get frustrated trying to figure it out on their own. They would then not only leave the game, but also give it a bad review, even though it was their own actions that ruined the experience for them. This in turn would discourage others who might have given it an honest try from testing at all.

Do you see now why alpha games typically have rigorous screenings before you're let in? Yes, well, if you recall, DD2 didn't have any screenings, aside from a relatively small pay wall.

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Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I can tell, from a players perspective it makes more sense to do a partial wipe. Allow me to explain my thinking.

With a partial wipe we (players) will all still have to play from 1-50, we will all of us also have our gear wiped and be starting with close to nothing. The only real difference is that those whom played more and saved more will have a little more to begin with, and when they hit 50, they will be able to test the endgame faster than they would have with a full wipe. In turn this means that bugs will be fixed faster and broken mechanics may be righted quicker. 

For me it's not a matter of player number 12 having an edge over me, they played smarter and saved, good for them. I'm just trying to look at this from a pros and cons point-of-view. Either way a wipe will happen, those that put time in should have the things they have saved. And for all of you testers out there, some diversity can help with the end results just as much as constant variables can. 

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Tomato Saving tokens equals playing smarter? Give me a break. Sorry but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth knowing others and I could have had tokens after a partial wipe had I not spent them. The fact that I grinded out 240 tokens for the ubers to then be deleted is sad. Partial would have been a possibility with a token refund. Now full wipe is the only way, I would rather start fresh.

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@Yuwee quote:

Tomato Saving tokens equals playing smarter? Give me a break. Sorry but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth knowing others and I could have had tokens after a partial wipe had I not spent them. The fact that I grinded out 240 tokens for the ubers to then be deleted is sad. Partial would have been a possibility with a token refund. Now full wipe is the only way, I would rather start fresh.

So because you spent your tokens, those who haven't have to suffer the same fate? I'm sure there are people who have also spent a fair amount of tokens and still have plenty left over, what of them? Are they to have to deal with a full wipe because you have none left over? Having tokens isn't going to hurt anyone else, and as far as you not having any it's nothing lost nothing gained. You spent them for the purposes of testing and progression, you got what you wanted out of them. As far as someone saving tokens equating to them playing smarter, sure what would you call it? Luck or otherwise, they have tokens left over and good for them. 

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@DaMattGuy quote:


@SactoDoug quote:

...use this like a real Alpha and let your "testers" change stats, items etc at will...

Because that can't possibly go wrong...

There are a few outcomes to doing as such and believe it or not, none of them are a good thing. Don't forget that Trendy is a small team and cannot act with haste upon user feedback.

For one, let's just assume that everyone given modding tools are level-headed with some degree of intelligence and wisdom (obviously not the actual case). The testers would then tinker and experiment and learn how things work and give honest feedback. Then, while the Trendy team analyzes the feedback and begins work on changes and improvements, the testers would do.... what? Nothing, that's what. They already skipped all the farming (and likely the level grinding) to get directly to the testing. More than likely most of them would leave the game on account of nothing else to do.

Now for the even worse scenario: giving the tools to the current players indiscriminately. As is plenty evident from the forums alone, quite a few players would try to use the tools to test without the grind and promptly get confused. Since they skipped the leveling and gear farming, they would not know how the system works and almost certainly get frustrated trying to figure it out on their own. They would then not only leave the game, but also give it a bad review, even though it was their own actions that ruined the experience for them. This in turn would discourage others who might have given it an honest try from testing at all.

Do you see now why alpha games typically have rigorous screenings before you're let in? Yes, well, if you recall, DD2 didn't have any screenings, aside from a relatively small pay wall.

Neither of your scenarios have described have happened in games I have been a part of the testing.  There is no rule that the games have to be taken down during analysis and coding.  Your first scenario is false.

There are a lot of people with DD1 experience, like me, that are playing DD2.  In addition, even if you have all of the toys from the beginning, that in no way means you can't learn how to play the game.  There is no rule that says that players must be hand-held to learn how to play a game.  If you didn't notice, there is no documentation with DD2 virtually no tutorial and little else to teach players how to play.  Your second scenario is also false.

Finally, there are no rules about "rigorous" screening for alphas.  Some teams want a limited number of play testers.  Others will take a large number.  The advantage of large numbers is that it also stress tests the infrastructure.  Inefficient code that can cause poor performance, time outs and other errors can be exposed by a large test group that can go unnoticed with a small test group.  Your final point is also false.

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As I've said before it pretty much comes down to: wipe tokens and refund gems or keep tokens and all spent gems the way they are. Personally I prefer the former.


Also everyone complaining about stuff getting wiped in any respect, do you honestly think you were going to keep all your stuff all the way to release from a pre-alpha? It would have been gone at some point, and if you're using the argument that wyvern tokens are going to take so long to get, then give them that feedback as its something wrong with how they're gotten, at least from my perspective.

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I am honestly surprised there are so much people who don't realize the difference between 'game testing and helping the devs' and 'paying for starting earlier and keep that advantage no matter what, but let's call it testing'

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@SactoDoug quote:

Neither of your scenarios have described have happened in games I have been a part of the testing.  There is no rule that the games have to be taken down during analysis and coding. 

Way to actually read, bro.... I made no mention whatsoever of the game being taken down. What I did say is that once you have played and tested the living crap out of a game and can no longer think of anything else to do, you won't keep playing it. At least most people won't.


1.) DD1 and DD2 are Not The Same Game. Not by a looooong shot. You've been here too long if you've completely forgotten what a new player has to learn in order to play. Past experience with DD1 or not, but especially without.

2.) You are putting too much faith in the patience of the rabid creature known as "Casual Gamers" which, unfortunately, are what make up the majority of the total gaming audience. They are everywhere, and game devs will either accept that, or make a niche game that usually ends up with poor sales.

3.) I have no idea what alpha / beta testing you've been doing, but yes they do have screenings. Ever heard of "access key code" or "by invitation only?" Yea, that's a screening process. Desired amount of testers has nothing to do with it, aside from how long it takes to send out all the emails.

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First of, and I cannot state this too much apparently, the game is in early access. Pre alpha even! One cannot expect wipes etc to never occurs during such an early phase of the game! That is simply the risk you buy into when you go early access. It is basically a demo of the game they want to release, and early access is a show of support.


As for the wipe, I voted partial. I put some time into it, and if I can keep my tokens and pet food, I would be quite happy. And based on the voting metrics it seem the people with  most influence (the ones logging in every day and playing) agree, while the more sporadic players want a full wipe. It is an interesting outcome I think.

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@DaMattGuy quote:


@SactoDoug quote:

Neither of your scenarios have described have happened in games I have been a part of the testing.  There is no rule that the games have to be taken down during analysis and coding. 

Way to actually read, bro.... I made no mention whatsoever of the game being taken down. What I did say is that once you have played and tested the living crap out of a game and can no longer think of anything else to do, you won't keep playing it. At least most people won't.


1.) DD1 and DD2 are Not The Same Game. Not by a looooong shot. You've been here too long if you've completely forgotten what a new player has to learn in order to play. Past experience with DD1 or not, but especially without.

2.) You are putting too much faith in the patience of the rabid creature known as "Casual Gamers" which, unfortunately, are what make up the majority of the total gaming audience. They are everywhere, and game devs will either accept that, or make a niche game that usually ends up with poor sales.

3.) I have no idea what alpha / beta testing you've been doing, but yes they do have screenings. Ever heard of "access key code" or "by invitation only?" Yea, that's a screening process. Desired amount of testers has nothing to do with it, aside from how long it takes to send out all the emails.

Way to actually read, bro...

1.  You don't remember that you posted:  "Since they skipped the leveling and gear farming, they would not know how the system works and almost certainly get frustrated trying to figure it out on their own."  DD1 is a lot similar to DD2 than any other game available.  Both games use the same principles of tower defense and FPS.  I also pointed out the lack of player manual and true tutorial which you have ignored. 

2.  You don't remember what you posted:  "Then, while the Trendy team analyzes the feedback and begins work on changes and improvements, the testers would do.... what? Nothing, that's what."  If the servers are up and running, then the testers are not doing "Nothing", as you said, they can still play the game.

3.  You don't remember that I posted:  "Finally, there are no rules about "rigorous" screening for alphas.  Some teams want a limited number of play testers.  Others will take a large number. "  In other words, limited alpha/beta testing is just ONE method of testing.  There are also open alpha/betas, which is the approach this game is using.


Trendy is doing a disservice to the "testers" by making them grind out hundreds of hours of game play to get to end game content then doing a wipe.  They are going to find they are going to have fewer "testers" after this wipe.

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@Akutare quote:if you're using the argument that wyvern tokens are going to take so long to get, then give them that feedback as its something wrong with how they're gotten, at least from my perspective.

This.  This people.  Do it.

I've previously and repeatedly given my feedback on it and nothing's changed, indicating that the developers think it's "fine the way it is."

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@SactoDoug quote:

*EPIC LACK OF COMPREHENSION* 

My God. I haven't seen someone so completely unable to understand what's right in their face for a long while.

When you play Diablo 3 for hundreds of hours and max every possible class on every possible difficulty and get every tiny achievement (and lose every trace of sanity), do you keep playing? Of course not.

When you help test a game for hundreds of hours and try everything you can and maybe even a few suggestions the devs throw at you and you've exhausted every minute bit of content currently available, do you keep playing? Of course not.


I am now going to ignore you in order to keep from being banned for ranting on exactly how stupid you are...

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@DaMattGuy quote:


@SactoDoug quote:

*EPIC LACK OF COMPREHENSION* 

My God. I haven't seen someone so completely unable to understand what's right in their face for a long while.

When you play Diablo 3 for hundreds of hours and max every possible class on every possible difficulty and get every tiny achievement (and lose every trace of sanity), do you keep playing? Of course not.

When you help test a game for hundreds of hours and try everything you can and maybe even a few suggestions the devs throw at you and you've exhausted every minute bit of content currently available, do you keep playing? Of course not.


I am now going to ignore you in order to keep from being banned for ranting on exactly how stupid you are...


LOL

You have no idea what you are talking about.  I have done play testing for Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, and many other games you probably never heard about.  I have seen many different approaches to game testing.

You don't know what you are talking about.

People that are given access will play around with the game as long as they are allowed to do it.  It does not matter if they are allowed to skipped the level and gear farming.  They will continue to play for many reasons such as to explore the game world, to experiment, or just to have fun.

Your assertion that testers are going to play for gear and achievements is false.

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To me, this full wipe is garbage, not only I am going to lose hundreds of hours of farming pre-wipe, I am not able to jump in the game immediately and tell the devs, straight into their face, that they are full of feces. 


For example, now that I almost have full legendary builder set at 157. I can safely tell the devs what defense is utterly garbage and wouldn't work in a real world scenario, or what could work with "Betsy Boots". Now I have to farm all my stuff back, and possibly 2-3 months for saving up tokens to actually see if the uber really worth using? Well you can have your useless internal QA guy test your game (he doesn't). 


I haven't played a lot of alpha test, but most beta testing I have been in, provide much easier resource grinding to have people test out the high end content, unlike in DD2, the devs shelf out "Pre-Alpha", but the game runs like "open beta" without the cash shop. And have the players grind for testing. 


Some obvious bugs have been persistent for months and I always wonder if Trendy going to fix it after the wipe, which they probably just dump the bugs report in the bin anyway. 

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Personally If i knew we would keep the tokens through wipes I would have definitly played more. However because when the thing launched. We had no Idea that there will be a wipe shortly after. Maybe I expected it because I don't play much end game, cause why do endgame when the game is going to wipe. Having a partial wipe will also influence a lot of the core DD2 players, so they will have the allusion that the game is still not as bad as it is now. Daily tokens made me stay away from the game, because who wants to put that much work into a character to have it wiped and just to use a progression mechanic that shouldn't exist. NO ONE SHOULD EVER put ubers behind the token gate, it's a bad thing. I have a suspission that they won't be behind the daily currency wall. You shouldn't have to be barred like that. Having pets on a timer to hatch is enough to get people coming back. You can however put legendary items behind this gate, however they shouldn't be the best items in the game, much like how ubers are now. Seriously. The way they designed the wyvern shop is basically what made me not want to play much. The inevitable wipe.


My point is. if some one didn't spend a single wyvern token, and has those after the wipe. They will veiw the changes to how you gain these tokens a lot less harsh than some one that has to get them again. Ubers shouldn't have any place in the boss shop. It definitly hampers how I feel about character progression. If they added ubers in as a token sink to make keys bought less at their cheap price, they should take ubers out and increase the cost of the keys.


alas this is a bit off topic. 

but my point is that the people that will have easier access to end game because they have a spirit from before that gave them this in the past life. Giving this head start you won't possibly know how the people that have zero think and your opinion on the wyvern progression will change. Unless it's extremely different.

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I just spent two months saving Wyvern tokens to buy a Betsy Egg. They said they are going to keep wyvern tokens, does that mean I will get those tokens back? I think this is bull, if partiaipe is a possibility, why is it even a question.

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I wouldn't mind wiping Ubers without a refund, just let us keep the tokens that we already have.
I myself spent some tokens as well, got an Uber, so i am no exception in this matter. But i wouldn't be happy seeing my pocket-tokens going away... It'd suck hard.

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