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ddace

Update 1 Beta Bug List

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Just to put my two sense into the ToT war...lol.


I would say they need to be set a point where they can still spawn as high as the diamond, but a lot lower of a minimum spawn point in my opinion. I cant personally run the beta at this point with my characters without using mods on open to be able to do it since my characters are way to low (not even level 70s yet). But as other people are saying, these patches are too be about progression, we cant always have the Diamond as the "Pet of the Game" for end game stats. There needs to be more options, if there was the possibility of a diamond stat like ToT, yet highly unlikely where they typically seem to spawn as a Kobold I personally would be fine with that.

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ToT actually does have a far lower spawn minimum - there have been several ToT spawning with double digit stats.

I personally think at a bare minimum, it needs to have level 100 requirement to equip.
Taking the speed boost down a bit might not hurt as well. Make it similar to that of a small diamond or something closer to that.

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*Based off personal opinion others may disagree

*I probably forgot something... 

Current list of "Viable end game content"

-Campaign 

Winter Wonderland

sky city 

CD

Aka

Kings Game

Tinks

-Challenges 

Boss Rush

Lab Assult

VE

SN

TOL

-Survivals (armor drops excluded)

aqua

sky city

raggo

Tinks

Aka

List of End game content if moonbase is released as is

 -Campaign 

Winter Wonderland

sky city 

CD

Aka

Kings Game

Tinks

-Challenges 

Boss Rush

Lab Assult

VE

SN

TOL

-Survivals (armor drops excluded)

aqua

sky city

raggo

Tinks

Aka


As is, moonbase would replace 6 of the 16 viable "end game maps/challenges" 

Many people have mentioned that there have been items that have become "not end game viable" and i get that when new content is added the rewards will outclass some of the old items but as is moonbase replaces 38% of endgame content. seems a little way over the top to me. I would personally like to see at least some of the rewards brought down to a more realistic level. If not then the game is going to be reduced to lab and moonbase for the majority of players and that just seems like a lame step to be taking. 

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I would be perfectly fine with a stat creep, imo. Mkjo's idea sounds great to me : "One super duper wep for one class and a nice pet for survival"

Maybe make ToTs have a ridiculously low minimum stat (threshhold?, not sure what to call it in english xP) and remove the speed boost entirely. Make Hyper Rifles or Quietus a good reward from there, since we already have enough swords (obs, saw, e-sword, glacier) and staves (clava, eagle, the aquanos one, bloodshot, bone,  rainmaker) going around and, imo, not enough huntress weps (Plasma, blaster, pawn) or monk weps (sparus, wrench, e-spear )

 But, the stat creep shouldn't come by so fast, considering we have a lot more great open maps that I would like to farm on ranked. So a tiny upping in stats seems like enough to me.

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All opinions are welcome for sure but please keep it civil when discussing.

Also, please keep in mind that Trendy is providing this update free to the community since some of us did ask for it for quite a while.  I am sure they are not wanting or are able to expend a lot of time on tweaking every thing but do want to still have a good update for us.  They are interested in what we think but there may be a limit to what all they are able to do for now.

I think most are actually on the same page about this but wanted to throw out some questions about it.  I added my own thoughts/opinions about these as well for discussion.

Will ToT affect the gameplay of anyone who already has 5k+ stats?  Not likely.  Mythical stats are already enough to beat the game by many. Trans to Ult++ are just extra stats anyways when it comes to towers.  I am sure some thought sup and ult break progression before too.

Does ToT affect game progression?  Perhaps for those with lower stats.  They may get a pet and progress faster than those of us who took the long route.  Although many have struggled with the jump into NM so maybe this would help them tackle maps that are more challenging. It would actually be interesting to get the point of view from people who are at 2k-3k or less.  

As a side note, I believe more stats are given out from Lab Assault than this ever will.  Some thought that Lab Assault broke the game but it found a place with many players still.

Does it make the Diamond obsolete?  For some it might.  I personally prefer diamonds over this but that is just 1 opinion and we do want to hear many opinions still.  Might actually make diamonds more valuable.  

Is it required to play this map? No. Obviously we will see many running around with the new pet and weapons. Why? Mainly because it is new and for some, they just love their stat hunts.

Is it challenging enough for the reward?  I think most agree it isn't.  It would probably not be as much of a problem if it was a survival reward.


Please be thinking about these things, share your opinion and continue discussing.  Thanks.


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What I would like to see is an increase in Moonbase difficulty so it's a challenge to even those of us with 6-8k stats. That way, the difficulty would justify reward. Don't change the reward to match map difficulty, change map difficulty to match the reward.

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In terms of the opinion of someone who is at 2-3k stats or less, I believe it would help a lot to help get over the Insane to NM wall, I'm just trying to decide if its a case of "When is it too much of a good thing". I see many people quit because they just cant get over that wall, but at the same time, if we made it possible to "hey you, can you build MB for me" get a ToT, and immediately build NM (going off the basis of the person actually knows how to build and play this game), I'm not sure if thats making the game far too easy for those that just join other peoples maps to progress compared to those that have to work really hard and rack up hours upon hours to progress through the game like I am trying my best to do right now (outside of I'm slightly "cheating" and using events to level my characters up a little bit.............)

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So this took several runs of moonbase to get but finally got my ToT.  I am terrible at DDR.  Nova has better dance moves than I do apparently.  

I did test a 383 up Quietus against my 384 up espear on NM dummy.  There is a difference but not a game breaking difference to me.  Will get around to testing other items tomorrow probably.  Of course that will be a bigger difference when boosted.

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Im not sure why people think this will help players break into nightmare.... If players cant kill the ogre on wave one on deeper wells then they sure are not beating moonbase on nm

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a simple solution for the tot pet could b:

1.  Nerf the speed/stats.  instead of a speed bonus, have a speed penality.  Make it like a diamond's speed boost, but in the negative direction.  This would make players choose whether they want speed or stats.  Also lower the stat cap on it to like 999(think its 1100, but i may be wrong).   

2.  Require 100 "tokens."  Make maps that seem obsolete drop these tokens as rewards.  then instead of having to score a 42, u put tokens in machine and get one tot.  Or make moonbase give moon rock, like coal.  But require a large amount of them for one to spawn, like 500 moon rocks for one tot.  Would make it alot more time consuming than farming diamonds.

3.  Make the pet a reward for beating moonbase survival(if we ever get it).  

4.  Make it an "one" per account reward, like the cube or reg chicken.  This way all players have one chance to get it.(Although then u have the problem of ppl getting alts to farm more, so this needs more thought).

5.  Make moonbase harder/add a boss.  

We need to come up with solutions, not create more problems by senseless bickering.  and what most of us have to remember is that we are all what most people consider hardcore dd gamers.  sometime our passion for this game and rl spills into the forums. To be honest, ill probably farm these items no matter what is done with them.  i enjoy farming lots of different items.  and its not the maps that make me choose what i farm, its my passion for stat hunting and item farming which make my map choices.  No where in the game does it require u to wear the most op items to beat the game.  You great dd players have proven to us time and time again the game can be beaten by using mythical(and even lower) sets and items.  I just hope we can all come to some sort of agreement on this without ripping each others heads off:)  In the end, this is just a game.  And many ppl enjoy it different ways.

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The 100 token thing I agree with RC, but I'm not so sure about the speed penalty. Higher speeds are practically required for end game maps with how large some of them are. This would mean if someone actually wants to use a ToT, wouldnt they have to then spend even more time trying to find armor as good as what they have on that has a bunch of speed on it, or accessories, even though speed soft caps at like 1400 I think it is.

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@starfox64_0 quote:

The 100 token thing I agree with RC, but I'm not so sure about the speed penalty. Higher speeds are practically required for end game maps with how large some of them are. This would mean if someone actually wants to use a ToT, wouldnt they have to then spend even more time trying to find armor as good as what they have on that has a bunch of speed on it, or accessories, even though speed soft caps at like 1400 I think it is.

If its coded in the same way as the pet rock, it won't matter because it sets the speed value to 0 regardless of your other stats.

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So if anyone wants to use a ToT they are going to have to run around as fast as they can with a Diamond, build everything, manage to get back to the forge and put on your ToT...that still runs into the issue of depending on your character level and all you wont have time to do that...it would be making ToT's only worth while to the highly skilled vets that still play that can effortlessly build maps without getting stuck behind that wall or behind that harpoon. I've ran Glitterhelm for hours in my DD time between levelling on PS3 and PC, and I can barely do that with Glitterhelm, let alone a bigger map like Karathiki or Akatiti. 

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Akatiti isn't a large map though. I regularly have well over 2 minutes left after building, and I'm not even speedrunning.

For Karathiki and WW this would 100% be an issue though.

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@Caimen0 quote:

Akatiti isn't a large map though. I regularly have well over 2 minutes left after building, and I'm not even speedrunning.

For Karathiki and WW this would 100% be an issue though.

Its been approx. a year since I played Akatiti so I was thinking it was a pretty good size, in terms of glitterhelm I can run around and build everything in time right now but thats barely...I still finish building in the combat phase...though typically due to a lack of mana. I still feel though as if we set up the ToT with a speed issue, that would mean on bigger maps to use a ToT you would absolutely have to have a diamond, or manage to build everything in time to get to the forge, and put on your ToT on every character.

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There is not much point switching from a diamond to a ToT though.  I doubt 150 more points in tower damage would be worth it to many to go through and switch, especially when the sides are likely to be worse than a diamond.  Some might want to do that but it would have little effect tower damage output if you already have diamonds.

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@ddace quote:

There is not much point switching from a diamond to a ToT though.  I doubt 150 more points in tower damage would be worth it to many to go through and switch, especially when the sides are likely to be worse than a diamond.  Some might want to do that but it would have little effect tower damage output if you already have diamonds.

Well in that case then, ToTs would have the issue of being too harmful to use and try to build with then unless you have crazy speed stats right? It would end up being like the Rock where they at one point in time where very strong for towers, but if you used one it would cause you too much issue to build so they quickly became obsolete if I'm remembering correctly.

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Having now played on the beta (yay!) and being able to get some Moonbase rewards for myself, here's my take on the situation:

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO THIS IS NOT OKAY

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's all the items I have farmed thus far. (album)

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ToT needs to have lv 100 hero requirement and decrease in movespeed. Maybe a movespeed decrease. To be 100% honest, its not worth farming them. Most of the 8 treadmills I got from ~5-7 runs were pretty bad. Unless you are a DD DDR god, there is really no reason to waste your time getting a 10% chance it turns out diamond level 20% of the runs you do.


Hyper Rifle is just way beyond broken. It more than doubles the damage output of every current Huntress weapon. The extra projectile just makes it far too strong. My advice is to halve the damage per upgrade to 168/^ or put it at 170-175. It will still be the strongest single target weapon in the game, but it will have the niche role of boss damage instead of ripping everything in the game to shreds. It will also create a tradeoff between excellent single target damage or having a worthwhile base damage for hero ability 2.

Example:

The 313^ Hyper Rifle pictured (twice, oops) in the imgur album hits 114k damage, but does the damage of a 228k weapon because of the projectile. Halving the damage/upgrade puts it in the 62k damage range, but giving it the power of a 120k. You're letting it still be stronger than a Blaster Rifle or Ecannon, but if you want to use it, you will have very poor Piercing Shot/Spreadshot damage. It is a good tradeoff and creates a new niche weapon that isn't overpowering what is already available.


The Quietus is just broken. It has the best damage per upgrade of any weapon in the game, with the best base damage of any weapon in the game. My 357^ Quietus was heavily out damaging my 392^ Espear, and also has better stats and swing rate to boot. We need more good monk weapons, but this is just too strong. It needs its base damage significantly dropped. The one I upgraded had over 21k base damage, which is just ridiculous if you plan to give it better damage per upgrade than a Pawn Shot.


The Fusion Rift is similarly broken. Its 384/^ is ridiculous, and isn't even balanced out by the damage drop it receives. After the 40% drop, it still has basically 230/^. The closest to that is Classic's Eagle Crested Standard at... 147.875... It's not balanced. Plain and simple. Drop it. And the base damage. By a lot.


The Dynast is good. Its 339.2509/^ is tolerable, and doesn't have any other ridiculous boosts to make it overpowered. It does have the second best damage boost of squire weapons, but its so small that it isn't really noticeable (best being the Gladius ofc). I might increase the average spawn size a bit, but other than that I have no real complaints.


I stick to my point about mythical weapons. They need to cap at 400, and not spawn at transcendent cap.

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Has anyone mentioned that all the Moonbase weps seem to drop with the same stats?

By that I mean that all my end of map rewards spawn with all 6 hero stats, tower health and rate present. Is that intended or a bug?





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Called it 3 months ago, when i told people to stop pushing for this imba shizzle.
Heck, lots of others even called it during or right after the voting, so very long ago.

The push for getting moonbase was always about 2 things, not for the map itself:
1. The over the top rewards. Primarily.
2. The principle. They promised the map that won the vote. That happened to be this.

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@Tydo quote:

Called it 3 months ago, when i told people to stop pushing for this imba shizzle.
Heck, lots of others even called it during or right after the voting, so very long ago.

The push for getting moonbase was always about 2 things, not for the map itself:
1. The over the top rewards. Primarily.
2. The principle. They promised the map that won the vote. That happened to be this.

But that is the reason for this thread. We are in control of the rewards. We can make the decision to nerf the items appropriately.

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@mkjo quote:

Has anyone mentioned that all the Moonbase weps seem to drop with the same stats?

By that I mean that all my end of map rewards spawn with all 6 hero stats, tower health and rate present. Is that intended or a bug?

Actually they drop with ALL 10 stats.  You just cant see Tower Damage or Tower Range.  Spawning with all 10 stats is problably the reason you see ults so much.

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