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gigazelle

Critical chance and critical damage are already broken.

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Why not do it the way WoW does stats?  The higher level you are, the more stat points required for the same percentage increase.  Essentially, BiS gear for each level will net approximately the same percentage increase, and as higher level caps are introduced, your crit chance will dimish if you don't get better gear.

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@Omamba quote:

Why not do it the way WoW does stats?  The higher level you are, the more stat points required for the same percentage increase.  Essentially, BiS gear for each level will net approximately the same percentage increase, and as higher level caps are introduced, your crit chance will dimish if you don't get better gear.

That model could potentially work not only with crit chance, but with every defense stat in the game (including attack rate and range). I can't help but feel like that would make players feel like they're swimming upstream, though.

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@gigazelle quote:

That model could potentially work not only with crit chance, but with every defense stat in the game (including attack rate and range). I can't help but feel like that would make players feel like they're swimming upstream, though.

But, it would be balanced.  Also, it may just be me, but I have never cared about gear at anything less than max level.  It's always been just equip something if it's better to help me level, then farm BiS gear when it matters.

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Coming from someone who used to raid lead in Wow, and had 9 different toons in top gear (yeah i didn't used to have a life....wait still don't...nm) I personally never felt like i was swimming upstream. When the level cap was increased you spent time going through the story to get your toons to max level. And you geared up for the minimum needed at that time to start farming for the good stuff. Honestly wow's gear progression is probably either the best, or certainly one of the best in the business. Otherwise they wouldn't have membership spikes every time they release an expansion, and a pretty respectable continuing subscription based population. If all everyone thought was omg its going to be the largest struggle to get myself to top tier again, they wouldn't keep coming back or keep playing. Now im not saying "Hey trendy just be like blizz cause yeah" just putting in that they have it down pretty darn well imo.

Honestly i really want to see what trendy is going to figure out in the end through this whole process. You really don't expect innovation from big companies like blizz. They are to worried about making money so they stick with what works most of the time. But there is an opportunity to end up with a really balanced, but totally fresh approach to gear if we can manage to get things figured out. Which they seem to be really trying to find the right solution, though their current thoughts (as i stated on the other forum topic about this whole thing) aren't really the right answer myself.

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how about double shot on defaces with decreased sped? Probably crit chance and crit dmg wont work. Then you will nead item with: defance dmg, defance hp, defance speed, crit chance and crt dmg (impossible to get)

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In order for any crit stat to work in-game, it must be equivalent to defense damage in terms of effectiveness.

For example, say I have a cannon tower that I've chosen to invest solely in tower damage. The tower shoots once every two seconds. The result is 3000 DPS, dealing 6000 damage per shot. Total damage after 2 minutes is 360K.

Investing solely in crit damage should result in a cannon that also averages 3000DPS over time, but how that damage is dealt is extremely erratic. Say my cannon still shoots once every 2 seconds, and deals only 3000 damage per shot (1500 DPS). However total damage after 2 minutes is also going to end up (roughly) at 360K.

At a 5% crit rate, a cannon firing once every 2 seconds is going to crit 3 times (60 shots with a 1/20 chance). Since total damage without crits is 180K, this lucky build's crits are going to be 60,000 a shot. This also means that total damage after two minutes is going to have a bell curve; most of the time total damage after 2 minutes will be 360K, but sometimes its going to be only 300K (if only 2 shots crit) and other times it's going to be 420K (if 4 shots crit). 'Tis the nature of a lucky build!

Both builds are equally viable, it's just one deals consistent damage and the other deals damage in huge bursts.

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Strategic diversity, both in our map builds and in our hero builds!

Usually what seems to happen is some game stats our focused while others are just ignored. My hope is that some utility is attached to critical hits( slows, stuns, debuffs, DOT effects, applied vulnerabilities) perhaps via secondary stats on gear. Maybe even have some enemies that are either resistant to crits or even get buffed when crit, like triggering a rage status. Then damage on these new crit stats need to  be balanced with the power stat in such a way that forces a tradeoff of consistent damage VS less damage on average but with added Utility (AND over the variety of towers and hero abilities applied differently)

If allowing for multiple viable hero and map builds this might work.

However, if these new stats become just a math problem about which stats give more damage on average then im opposed to it.

Please just give us some options beyond more points in 1 stat=more DPS


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I think this discussion is mostly about Defenses Critical Damage, but I'd like to comment about the change to hero critical damage. The current implementation with critical hit boxes on the enemies makes it a skillful thing rather than a random luck thing (it works now for huntress but seems to be broken for the monk because of auto-aim). I believe that retaining the skill component will keep the game fun and challenging for players while making it RNG based will be more rage inducing. When you don't get the critical damage because your aim is off or you mistimed your shot, you think "I need to practice." When you don't get it because the RNG gods have taken a dislike to you, you think, "What a stupid game!" So I strongly oppose the introduction of critical hit chance as a hero spec.

I also think the critical damage increase should be based on the enemy and what armor he is wearing, not some weird hero stat. For example, a head shot to a tier 1 goblin is maybe 4x damage, tier 2 is 3x, and tier 3 is double (I like the idea upthread of enemy armor affecting the amount of damage a critical hit can do). Also, maybe add layers to criticals, where on the ogre a head shot is 2x, but through the eye is 4x plus the ogre loses depth perception and maybe swing/stomp when the hero is too far away, not attacking until the hero is too close. Shoot both eyes and the ogre is blind and would begin swinging wildly and stomping randomly, doing damage to enemies as well and having trouble finding the objectives.

The same kind of thing could be done for projectile defenses and instead of calling it percent chance maybe calling it tower accuracy. Maybe even throw in the occasional miss if the towers are attacking a lane from the side rather than firing down the lane. I guess for auras and traps you could keep the percent chance of critical hit though I think it would be better to base it on the relative sizes of the critical and normal hit boxes.

EDIT to remove bad suggestion as pointed out by [[20331,users]]

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@gigazelle quote:

In order for any crit stat to work in-game, it must be equivalent to defense damage in terms of effectiveness.

For example, say I have a cannon tower that I've chosen to invest solely in tower damage. The tower shoots once every two seconds. The result is 3000 DPS, dealing 6000 damage per shot. Total damage after 2 minutes is 360K.

Investing solely in crit damage should result in a cannon that also averages 3000DPS over time, but how that damage is dealt is extremely erratic. Say my cannon still shoots once every 2 seconds, and deals only 3000 damage per shot (1500 DPS). However total damage after 2 minutes is also going to end up (roughly) at 360K.

At a 5% crit rate, a cannon firing once every 2 seconds is going to crit 3 times (60 shots with a 1/20 chance). Since total damage without crits is 180K, this lucky build's crits are going to be 60,000 a shot. This also means that total damage after two minutes is going to have a bell curve; most of the time total damage after 2 minutes will be 360K, but sometimes its going to be only 300K (if only 2 shots crit) and other times it's going to be 420K (if 4 shots crit). 'Tis the nature of a lucky build!

Both builds are equally viable, it's just one deals consistent damage and the other deals damage in huge bursts.

Roughly generalizing here, but I don't think each build is equally viable.  When the dps of your build is on a bellcurve sometimes you will do overkill damage and kill the mobs faster than is necessary.  Sometimes you will do under-kill damage and the ogres get a few too many seconds of bashing down your walls, leading to build failure.  If your character power is on the threshold of being able to survive to wave 10, a crit build will mean sometimes you make it to wave 11 but sometimes you wipe on wave 8.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would rather have consistent dps and make it to wave 10 each time.

As a stat, tower speed would help to narrow that bellcurve.  With the removal of tower speed you are going to have much longer tails.  I would hate having to cross  your fingers that you end up on the right side of the distribution each time the ogre wave comes.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

I also think the critical damage increase should be based on the enemy and what armor he is wearing, not some weird hero stat. For example, a head shot to a tier 1 goblin is maybe 4x damage, tier 2 is 3x, and tier 3 is double (I like the idea upthread of enemy armor affecting the amount of damage a critical hit can do). Also, maybe add layers to criticals, where on the ogre a head shot is 2x, but through the eye is 4x plus the ogre loses depth perception and maybe swing/stomp when the hero is too far away, not attacking until the hero is too close. Shoot both eyes and the ogre is blind and would begin swinging wildly and stomping randomly, doing damage to enemies as well and having trouble finding the objectives.

These types of things would be amusing due to novelty for about 5 seconds, then you would realize that they're not really effective mechanics for providing long-term replay value. Having armored enemies take reduced damage is probably fine, though you would have to balance this by reducing their hp by a relative amount so that the time-to-kill remains the same, after which the reduced damage becomes nothing more than an confusing aesthetic. Getting headshots on quickly moving targets is already half luck-based, hoping that the orc won't decide to shift his weight in the wrong direction after your arrow has already left the bow; adding additional even tinier hitboxes would be even more RNG-dependent, and would likely have adverse effects on performance.


Realism is rarely a good thing when it comes to video game design.

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@Zuqual quote:

Roughly generalizing here, but I don't think each build is equally viable.  When the dps of your build is on a bellcurve sometimes you will do overkill damage and kill the mobs faster than is necessary.  Sometimes you will do under-kill damage and the ogres get a few too many seconds of bashing down your walls, leading to build failure.  If your character power is on the threshold of being able to survive to wave 10, a crit build will mean sometimes you make it to wave 11 but sometimes you wipe on wave 8.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would rather have consistent dps and make it to wave 10 each time.

As a stat, tower speed would help to narrow that bellcurve.  With the removal of tower speed you are going to have much longer tails.  I would hate having to cross  your fingers that you end up on the right side of the distribution each time the ogre wave comes.

But that's the *exact* nature of a lucky build. Sure, sometimes you'd wipe at wave 8 whereas you might have gotten to wave 10 with "safe" stats, but other times you could go all the way to wave 12 if you were - you guessed it - lucky enough.

I don't think you're the minority at all when you say you want to have consistent DPS. On the other hand I'd say there are plenty on both sides of the fence here, which is why I want crit damage to be a viable sidegrade, not an afterthought or something tacked on to damage.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

I think this discussion is mostly about Defenses Critical Damage, but I'd like to comment about the change to hero critical damage. The current implementation with critical hit boxes on the enemies makes it a skillful thing rather than a random luck thing (it works now for huntress but seems to be broken for the monk because of auto-aim). I believe that retaining the skill component will keep the game fun and challenging for players while making it RNG based will be more rage inducing. When you don't get the critical damage because your aim is off or you mistimed your shot, you think "I need to practice." When you don't get it because the RNG gods have taken a dislike to you, you think, "What a stupid game!" So I strongly oppose the introduction of critical hit chance as a hero spec.

I also think the critical damage increase should be based on the enemy and what armor he is wearing, not some weird hero stat. For example, a head shot to a tier 1 goblin is maybe 4x damage, tier 2 is 3x, and tier 3 is double (I like the idea upthread of enemy armor affecting the amount of damage a critical hit can do). Also, maybe add layers to criticals, where on the ogre a head shot is 2x, but through the eye is 4x plus the ogre loses depth perception and maybe swing/stomp when the hero is too far away, not attacking until the hero is too close. Shoot both eyes and the ogre is blind and would begin swinging wildly and stomping randomly, doing damage to enemies as well and having trouble finding the objectives.

The same kind of thing could be done for projectile defenses and instead of calling it percent chance maybe calling it tower accuracy. Maybe even throw in the occasional miss if the towers are attacking a lane from the side rather than firing down the lane. I guess for auras and traps you could keep the percent chance of critical hit though I think it would be better to base it on the relative sizes of the critical and normal hit boxes.

I respectfully disagree here. I personally believe the following reasons are why location-based crits should be removed:

  • Auto-aim: In the earliest stages of DD2, auto-aim did not exist and the number 1 complaint with the game at the time was that they could not hit anything more than a few feet away. Trendy has invested quite a bit of time in their auto-aim capability, which was a wise investment. I can put my cursor on an enemy and say "shoot that", and my hits connect even when the enemy is moving. I can then focus on *what* I'm shooting as opposed to having to constantly adjust my aim on a moving target. While headshots work in FPS games, I don't think they have a place here.
  • Lag: In combination with auto-aim, this makes headshots seemingly random. Really the most effective way to land headshots is to plant yourself directly in front of an enemy so their head is moving towards you. I don't like the fact that I must be facing a certain direction to an enemy to be more consistent.
  • Unfairness to melee heroes: How does a squire or or melee monk crit? 

I want crits to be a pleasant surprise. Right now it's basically "I'm shooting the head, why isn't it critting?!". 

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Crit chance will most likely be a rating on the gear rather than a % this means lower levels would require less rating for 1% and higher levels would require more rating for 1%.  So early game or late game you can still build for crit.  Crit damage scaling on a % in fine but they could still scale that on a rating system if they want to.

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@gigazelle quote:

I respectfully disagree here. I personally believe the following reasons are why location-based crits should be removed:

  • Auto-aim: In the earliest stages of DD2, auto-aim did not exist and the number 1 complaint with the game at the time was that they could not hit anything more than a few feet away. Trendy has invested quite a bit of time in their auto-aim capability, which was a wise investment. I can put my cursor on an enemy and say "shoot that", and my hits connect even when the enemy is moving. I can then focus on *what* I'm shooting as opposed to having to constantly adjust my aim on a moving target. While headshots work in FPS games, I don't think they have a place here.
  • Lag: In combination with auto-aim, this makes headshots seemingly random. Really the most effective way to land headshots is to plant yourself directly in front of an enemy so their head is moving towards you. I don't like the fact that I must be facing a certain direction to an enemy to be more consistent.
  • Unfairness to melee heroes: How does a squire or or melee monk crit? 

I want crits to be a pleasant surprise. Right now it's basically "I'm shooting the head, why isn't it critting?!". 

NP on disagreeing. We are having a discussion after all.

I don't remember big problems with not being able to hit things but then I do usually shoot down the lanes. If I stand to the side, I expect I'm going to miss unless I have the timing down perfectly. I also don't have a problem with auto-aim but I think it should be center-of-mass rather than a percent chance of critical hit. Of course if center-of-mass leads through the critical hit box then yes, you get a critical hit. In other words, let those who want to aim for themselves do so and get credit for their skill and those who don't want to can use auto-aim.

Lag is definitely a big problem but not insurmountable (those FPS's you mention do it after all). Probably a big PITA so I understand if Trendy doesn't implement this.

As for melee heroes, if your crosshairs are on the critical hit box when you click and it is within range, you get a critical hit. For the ogre, this would entail jumping, but y'all want difficulty, right?

@Folly quote:... Having armored enemies take reduced damage is probably fine, though you would have to balance this by reducing their hp by a relative amount so that the time-to-kill remains the same, after which the reduced damage becomes nothing more than an confusing aesthetic.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Why would time to kill need to remain the same? If you have a high hero damage stat I don't see why you wouldn't get to kill things more quickly. If the enemy has high health and armor, they should be tough to kill.

The rest of you comment is probably related to lag covered above and I agree it is a problem. As for shifting while walking, well that's the skill part I am talking about.


I should be clear. I think auto-aim ought to be selectable by the player and if you turn it off, then it is your skill that get's you the critical hits or even any hits at all. That's the risk you take but the rewards are every shot being a critical hit if you have the skills. BTW, the auto-aim on the monk annoys me to no end - it's nearly impossible to get a critical hit on the enemies for which you want to get a critical hit.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Why would time to kill need to remain the same? If you have a high hero damage stat I don't see why you wouldn't get to kill things more quickly. If the enemy has high health and armor, they should be tough to kill.

You proposed a scenario in which the higher tier enemies take greatly reduced damage. If you implement this damage mitigation without any increase to player damage or reduction to enemy hitpoints or any similar adjustments, then you just end up with enemies who take forever to kill and completely break the game.

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@Folly quote:

@Ubara-tutu quote:

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Why would time to kill need to remain the same? If you have a high hero damage stat I don't see why you wouldn't get to kill things more quickly. If the enemy has high health and armor, they should be tough to kill.

You proposed a scenario in which the higher tier enemies take greatly reduced damage. If you implement this damage mitigation without any increase to player damage or reduction to enemy hitpoints or any similar adjustments, then you just end up with enemies who take forever to kill and completely break the game.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Yeah you are right about that. The extra armor is already rolled into the general health of the enemy so no need to reduce the critical hit value.

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My two very small cents worth.  Trendy really just needs to shed some light on the discussions they are having with the player base.  We can assume in large, pray in large, plead in large; however, it's their game - as much as they do "read" player feedback.  Whatever round table discussion they have had, whatever they have disseminated amongst themselves based on this thread and others, needs to be let out a little bit.  Even large companies such as Blizzard or EA release some information, even if it isn't the "final" nail to make it concrete.


I agree with several people on this thread, it's beyond constructive, it's from people who are thinking down to the numbers and how classes are impacted and denied something that "could be" great.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:
@gigazelle quote:

I respectfully disagree here. I personally believe the following reasons are why location-based crits should be removed:

  • Unfairness to melee heroes: How does a squire or or melee monk crit? 

I want crits to be a pleasant surprise. Right now it's basically "I'm shooting the head, why isn't it critting?!". 

As for melee heroes, if your crosshairs are on the critical hit box when you click and it is within range, you get a critical hit. For the ogre, this would entail jumping, but y'all want difficulty, right?

Somehow I don't think this is true.  This is a 3rd person game and my crosshair can absolutely be hovering over a different mob than the squire's currently bashing in the face (this is a longstanding problem I have with the melee in this game).  This is such an extreme problem the squire will attack walls rather than turn around to hit the enemy I'm trying to target because the aiming reticule is straight up not used at all.

And if that's true, the autoaim for ranged attacks can take this into account as well.  If you're hovering over an enemy's head...you should get a crit.

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@Draco18s quote:
@Ubara-tutu quote:
@gigazelle quote:

I respectfully disagree here. I personally believe the following reasons are why location-based crits should be removed:

  • Unfairness to melee heroes: How does a squire or or melee monk crit? 

I want crits to be a pleasant surprise. Right now it's basically "I'm shooting the head, why isn't it critting?!". 

As for melee heroes, if your crosshairs are on the critical hit box when you click and it is within range, you get a critical hit. For the ogre, this would entail jumping, but y'all want difficulty, right?

Somehow I don't think this is true.  This is a 3rd person game and my crosshair can absolutely be hovering over a different mob than the squire's currently bashing in the face (this is a longstanding problem I have with the melee in this game).  This is such an extreme problem the squire will attack walls rather than turn around to hit the enemy I'm trying to target because the aiming reticule is straight up not used at all.

And if that's true, the autoaim for ranged attacks can take this into account as well.  If you're hovering over an enemy's head...you should get a crit.

I wasn't saying it is true now, I was saying that is how it could work for a melee hero. Sorry for the bad wording on my part.

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What if critical chance was something temporary? 

What if pets could cast a limited-size target-able buff that would increase certain towers critical chance for a limited time, on a cool-down? This would make it a non-static buff, make it more scenario based, and make it less powerful over all. You can also do various other buffs, that compete with crit chance - temp increase to range, attack rate, base damage, defense, etc. 


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