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tonyb

So Item Wipe or Just Re-roll?

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So can we get confirmation from the stream on Friday?  At first they said they were going to try not to wipe items.   Then they said they might have an influence vote on it?

I don't care what you do but at least give us notice as early as possible so we are aware.

If you are going to have an influence vote on it, could you do it like Now...  so we know what is going to happen when the Item wipe patch hits?

If you do wipe, do we get a refund for gold spent upgrading gear?  On that note, if you are wiping Items are you also wiping gold? 






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They can't give anymore details yet because they want to see if its possible to re-roll first, if it turns out more work than necessary it would be easier to wipe all items.  Even if they do manage to re-roll I would guess the stats assigned would be random meaning you could end up with next to worthless gear.

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When I saw this post I thought it would be a thread about which you would prefer. 

Whatever happens, expect everything to change. 

When thinking about it, I would actually prefer a wipe. Clean slate. I'm sure everyone has their own opinions though.

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I would love a wipe. 


If you can solo betsy on the game right now, there's little to no reason to play the game, aside from dailies.

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Even if they knew they were going to wipe items, I don't think would make the announcement just yet. I'd imagine once players found out there would be a wipe with the next patch many would just stop playing till the new patch comes out. I honestly would prefer a reroll simply because there is a chance that out of all the gear on my characters and in my inventory there would be a good chance I could make use of something rather than starting from scratch.



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The situation almost demands a full wipe of characters. If they try to do a targetted re-roll people will already not be happy that they lost the items that the worked so "hard" for. If they do a random re-roll, people will be mad when they get gear that is no longer suited to their characters. If they just do an item wipe then everyone will have lvl 25 characters that have no gear on them.

We need a hard wipe to implement the stat changes. People will get angry regardless and you risk losing players just doing the stat changes in the first place.

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To be honest, while I see what you're saying about players not playing until the patch, at the same time I think players deserve to know. Sure they might lose out on some extra testing, but they gain a lot of goodwill by not playing people.

Besides, at the moment I'm here fairly sure they are either going to reroll or wipe, and I'm still playing. Although admittedly I'm really hoping for the reroll too.

@keona quote:

Even if they knew they were going to wipe items, I don't think would make the announcement just yet. I'd imagine once players found out there would be a wipe with the next patch many would just stop playing till the new patch comes out. I honestly would prefer a reroll simply because there is a chance that out of all the gear on my characters and in my inventory there would be a good chance I could make use of something rather than starting from scratch.


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Honestly I think a full wipe is the only way as otherwise those who can solo the highest content right now will just bank all their inventory with legendaries and won't be affected while those left behind will fall further behind.  

Plus with a full wipe people will be forced into playing through earlier content again, testing out how the changes affect progressing through levels and if any levels will need slight wave tweaks to compensate.

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@Whittaker quote:

 testing out how the changes affect progressing through levels and if any levels will need slight wave tweaks to compensate.

I may not want a full wipe but this is probably the strongest and most valid argument I've seen yet.

p.s. I hate you for making a wipe actually seems like a good thing to do :p so +1 to you :D

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@Whittaker quote:

Honestly I think a full wipe is the only way as otherwise those who can solo the highest content right now will just bank all their inventory with legendaries and won't be affected while those left behind will fall further behind.  

It depends on how you look at it. If you have only 5 legendaries now and they got rerolled, versus someone who has 100 legendaries now and they got rerolled too, I fail to see how anyone is getting left behind in that equation. It is just a status quo.

No one would fall further behind, if anything with a wipe, the people ahead would be the ones that fell backwards furthest (although only to the same point that everyone else was on).

*Not* rerolling would leave people behind, absolutely. Rerolling items wouldn't, it just means people who'd already grinded (and I've not grinded as much as many) wouldn't have to start from the same footing as someone starting from scratch. Which... is a reasonable proposition, I think.

@Whittaker quote:

Plus with a full wipe people will be forced into playing through earlier content again, testing out how the changes affect progressing through levels and if any levels will need slight wave tweaks to compensate.

Perhaps, but there should always be a stream of new players heading into the game, and ultimately having your longer term players having to keep restarting from zero is just... not ideal, for arguably the more committed part of your player base. 

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@Syclic quote:

The situation almost demands a full wipe of characters. If they try to do a targetted re-roll people will already not be happy that they lost the items that the worked so "hard" for. If they do a random re-roll, people will be mad when they get gear that is no longer suited to their characters. If they just do an item wipe then everyone will have lvl 25 characters that have no gear on them.

We need a hard wipe to implement the stat changes. People will get angry regardless and you risk losing players just doing the stat changes in the first place.

@Deathrow quote:

I would love a wipe. 


If you can solo betsy on the game right now, there's little to no reason to play the game, aside from dailies.

I understand these too points and accept that a full wipe of items might be necessary. However, I  still feel sad about the 150+ hours I spend farming the items just to have them deleted. If a full wipe is required I feel they should find a way to compensate everyone. 

This could be a special  title or pet, or even simply gold. I wouldn't really care what was selected, as long as i felt that all that time wasn't wasted. 

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I think balance issues can be solved by re-rolling items, and there is no need to do a full items wipe. And, to be honest, I don't feel complete wipe is fair. I agree that people who played more and already have some legendary items will start from a better position, but hey... they spent countless hours playing DD2 and farming those items, so isn't that fair? Putting everyone at the same place, regardless of time spent playing, would be unfair.

Having said all that, I fully understand that this is still early access, and everyone should accept the fact that there could be wipe at some point, but Trendy also said that they will do whatever they can to avoid wipes, and I think in this circumstances it can be avoided.

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A complete wipe is just a dumb idea. If a re-roll isn't possible, just auto-sell all pre-patch gear that is affected by the new changes. Preferably while at the same time refunding the gold spent upgrading said gear.

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You should all know by now that I am team "let me keep my stuff"  but, since this is not an option I am a huge advocate of a complete gear and character wipe.  This would encourage balance testing of the new gear as it comes up.

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@Decadent quote:


@Whittaker quote:

Honestly I think a full wipe is the only way as otherwise those who can solo the highest content right now will just bank all their inventory with legendaries and won't be affected while those left behind will fall further behind.  

It depends on how you look at it. If you have only 5 legendaries now and they got rerolled, versus someone who has 100 legendaries now and they got rerolled too, I fail to see how anyone is getting left behind in that equation. It is just a status quo.

No one would fall further behind, if anything with a wipe, the people ahead would be the ones that fell backwards furthest (although only to the same point that everyone else was on).

*Not* rerolling would leave people behind, absolutely. Rerolling items wouldn't, it just means people who'd already grinded (and I've not grinded as much as many) wouldn't have to start from the same footing as someone starting from scratch. Which... is a reasonable proposition, I think.

this is correct to a point, but the person who only has 5 legendaries might get 5 bricks as gear and might actually have to go backwards on content and do starter level 25 stuff just to get started again, where the person who has 100 legendaries can just sift threw all his gear (even if it was well earned) and basically stay in the same position, or only slightly behind where he was.


Although, with the way that the matchmaking is, all the high geared people will do is look for parties to increase there itemfind for having more people, and get matched with the people who have no gear, and then building for them so they actually can get to back to where they were faster than expected, but it really would depend on the luck of there matchmaking on if they find a geared player, and also that doesn't sound fun at all for either side.


With a wipe it just throws everyone back to the start and we all have to grind back up again. Grinding to progress is what makes this game fun after all. I will say that my 4 bags of level 25 legendaires will be missed for a while, but ill just get them again.

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I'd rather the re-roll than the full wipe.

A re-roll, if they're truly doing a re-roll and not just a stat swap, is going to help even the playing field. A person with a box full of damn near best in slot gear has more to lose than someone with half a box of average gear. The BiS person can only hope they get at least enough pieces of the stats they want to be able to put together a complete toon. He had the stats he wanted, the odds that he gets them back again especially when we know some are moving away from certain pieces is going to be very slim. The guy with average gear really doesn't have much to lose on this roll gamble, or he at least has an equal amount to gain.

Going into this with the assumption that well if I keep a box of legendaries then I'll have to get some decent gear is dumb. It's the equivalent of buying lottery tickets, just because you have more of them doesn't make each ticket more likely to win. Hell you could end up with a box full of junk. BUT at least you have SOMETHING to work with, even if they're just upgrade fodder shortly down the road.


If they are going to go the route of a total wipe, what happens to the gear we have? Will we get at least the selling price in gold for each piece? And then what happens afterwards? Now players are stuck at max level and left to go back to grinding their way back from earlier maps. Has any thought been given to giving players 1 full set of tower stat greens and 1 full set of hero stat greens. Basically as a way of "ok we wiped the board, he's some basic tools to get you going the rest is up to you". I think that would be the best way to make a full wipe as least painful as it can be.


What happens with things such as pets? As trivial as it may seem, I've managed to get a couple that are decent, I'd rather keep them. Add in the fact it takes 8 hours to get 1. Would this wipe/re-roll specifically target weapons and armor only?


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@EviLGreeNPenguiN quote:

I'd rather the re-roll than the full wipe.

A re-roll, if they're truly doing a re-roll and not just a stat swap, is going to help even the playing field. A person with a box full of damn near best in slot gear has more to lose than someone with half a box of average gear. The BiS person can only hope they get at least enough pieces of the stats they want to be able to put together a complete toon. He had the stats he wanted, the odds that he gets them back again especially when we know some are moving away from certain pieces is going to be very slim. The guy with average gear really doesn't have much to lose on this roll gamble, or he at least has an equal amount to gain.

Going into this with the assumption that well if I keep a box of legendaries then I'll have to get some decent gear is dumb. It's the equivalent of buying lottery tickets, just because you have more of them doesn't make each ticket more likely to win. Hell you could end up with a box full of junk. BUT at least you have SOMETHING to work with, even if they're just upgrade fodder shortly down the road.


If they are going to go the route of a total wipe, what happens to the gear we have? Will we get at least the selling price in gold for each piece? And then what happens afterwards? Now players are stuck at max level and left to go back to grinding their way back from earlier maps. Has any thought been given to giving players 1 full set of tower stat greens and 1 full set of hero stat greens. Basically as a way of "ok we wiped the board, he's some basic tools to get you going the rest is up to you". I think that would be the best way to make a full wipe as least painful as it can be.


What happens with things such as pets? As trivial as it may seem, I've managed to get a couple that are decent, I'd rather keep them. Add in the fact it takes 8 hours to get 1. Would this wipe/re-roll specifically target weapons and armor only?


To truly test the gear balance a COMPLETE wipe of all gear and pets would be best.  Otherwise you will get a skewed outcome.  If they change the stats on gear it will effect the pet rolls also with the current code.

Very successful alpha games such as starbound have done complete gear and character wipes every 4 to 6 months and have had great success with their player base (starbound averages 5 to 7k players a night)

Rust and life is feudal servers do wipes monthly typically.

A good character and gear wipe in testing phases keeps everything fresh and exciting.

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I would prefer they didn't wipe as well.   I know items will get rerolled but personally I don't really see the need.


People who want a wipe can delete their own gear and start over.  People that don't get to play gear roulette.


If they do end up wiping I wont lose much sleep over it though.

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If the re-roll will be based on the same algorithm that generates gear stats, what is the difference between finding items while playing the map and having old items completely re-rolled? I don't really see any.

@PTSFP Paul quote:


@EviLGreeNPenguiN quote:

I'd rather the re-roll than the full wipe.

A re-roll, if they're truly doing a re-roll and not just a stat swap, is going to help even the playing field. A person with a box full of damn near best in slot gear has more to lose than someone with half a box of average gear. The BiS person can only hope they get at least enough pieces of the stats they want to be able to put together a complete toon. He had the stats he wanted, the odds that he gets them back again especially when we know some are moving away from certain pieces is going to be very slim. The guy with average gear really doesn't have much to lose on this roll gamble, or he at least has an equal amount to gain.

Going into this with the assumption that well if I keep a box of legendaries then I'll have to get some decent gear is dumb. It's the equivalent of buying lottery tickets, just because you have more of them doesn't make each ticket more likely to win. Hell you could end up with a box full of junk. BUT at least you have SOMETHING to work with, even if they're just upgrade fodder shortly down the road.


If they are going to go the route of a total wipe, what happens to the gear we have? Will we get at least the selling price in gold for each piece? And then what happens afterwards? Now players are stuck at max level and left to go back to grinding their way back from earlier maps. Has any thought been given to giving players 1 full set of tower stat greens and 1 full set of hero stat greens. Basically as a way of "ok we wiped the board, he's some basic tools to get you going the rest is up to you". I think that would be the best way to make a full wipe as least painful as it can be.


What happens with things such as pets? As trivial as it may seem, I've managed to get a couple that are decent, I'd rather keep them. Add in the fact it takes 8 hours to get 1. Would this wipe/re-roll specifically target weapons and armor only?


To truly test the gear balance a COMPLETE wipe of all gear and pets would be best.  Otherwise you will get a skewed outcome.  If they change the stats on gear it will effect the pet rolls also with the current code.

Very successful alpha games such as starbound have done complete gear and character wipes every 4 to 6 months and have had great success with their player base (starbound averages 5 to 7k players a night)

Rust and life is feudal servers do wipes monthly typically.

A good character and gear wipe in testing phases keeps everything fresh and exciting.


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The reason for the complete wipe mirrors the issue that the game is having right now.  The mixture of old and new gear is causing a imbalance and a poor picture of the true difficulty of the game.  (See my testing regarding early game difficulty levels.)

Without a complete wipe its impossible to see if the gear drops are properly calibrated for new players.  Very VERY few new players have complete DS and DP gear sets.  This in-equality would continue.

@lukaszpicur quote:

If the re-roll will be based on the same algorithm that generates gear stats, what is the difference between finding items while playing the map and having old items completely re-rolled? I don't really see any.


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I understand your reasoning, but I also think that new people start their DD2 adventure every day, so we will always have fresh players to test that. And, on top of that, I'm sure there will be people like yourself, willing to do that testing on their own. Not to mention Trendy testers, who I'm sure plan to test early-stage difficulty level as part of major loot/stats revamp :)

@PTSFP Paul quote:

The reason for the complete wipe mirrors the issue that the game is having right now.  The mixture of old and new gear is causing a imbalance and a poor picture of the true difficulty of the game.  (See my testing regarding early game difficulty levels.)

Without a complete wipe its impossible to see if the gear drops are properly calibrated for new players.  Very VERY few new players have complete DS and DP gear sets.  This in-equality would continue.

@lukaszpicur quote:

If the re-roll will be based on the same algorithm that generates gear stats, what is the difference between finding items while playing the map and having old items completely re-rolled? I don't really see any.



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Paul,

A properly done re-roll will be effective at measuring the end game effect of the new gear much quicker.

An item wipe without a complete character wipe will have little effect for new players since all it means is we will have a bunch of naked 25 characters and will have to start farming at an odd level to start gearing up.  We are already 25, already have our spheres, ubers, bags, pets and are level 25.  It would not be a valid test of anything except how do players recover from an Item wipe.

The item re roll will toss us all into the same stat pool that they intend us to work from.  There will no longer be any DP/DS items cause we are all subject to the roulette wheel of gear rolls.  So there will be NO old gear anymore.   Everyone's existing items will get tossed into the new system, shaken up and rolled again.


Personally, I am at a loss at this point.  Without information I am not sure why I should play at this point.  All my testing is for naught cause the system is going to be re-vamped and the lack of a confirmed direction means I do not know what I should keep or sell.

Of course, I could just farm 160+ gear (regardless of stat) and if they do say they are going to perform an item wipe just sell all my 160+ gear before hand. If they decide to re-roll then hopefully I will get some good rolls.

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@tonyb quote:

Paul,

A properly done re-roll will be effective at measuring the end game effect of the new gear much quicker.

An item wipe without a complete character wipe will have little effect for new players since all it means is we will have a bunch of naked 25 characters and will have to start farming at an odd level to start gearing up.  We are already 25, already have our spheres, ubers, bags, pets and are level 25.  It would not be a valid test of anything except how do players recover from an Item wipe.

The item re roll will toss us all into the same stat pool that they intend us to work from.  There will no longer be any DP/DS items cause we are all subject to the roulette wheel of gear rolls.  So there will be NO old gear anymore.   Everyone's existing items will get tossed into the new system, shaken up and rolled again.


Personally, I am at a loss at this point.  Without information I am not sure why I should play at this point.  All my testing is for naught cause the system is going to be re-vamped and the lack of a confirmed direction means I do not know what I should keep or sell.

Of course, I could just farm 160+ gear (regardless of stat) and if they do say they are going to perform an item wipe just sell all my 160+ gear before hand. If they decide to re-roll then hopefully I will get some good rolls.

Since you started reading at the end of this thread I will re-post my earlier comment so you can see my logic.


"You should all know by now that I am team "let me keep my stuff"  but, since this is not an option I am a huge advocate of a complete gear and character wipe.  This would encourage balance testing of the new gear as it comes up."

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The "Trendy testers" have effectively failed to produce feedback and timely resolution for the following two items.

1.) The boot fiasco in where the boots in question where not tested in the single circumstance they would be used in.

2.) The uber issue.  The complete imbalance of ubers both in old and new geared players.

I think most of the community would agree the above group is not a reliable source of balance information.

and BTW new people do not start their DD2 adventuring everyday.  look at the population metrics for this alpha.

@lukaszpicur quote:

I understand your reasoning, but I also think that new people start their DD2 adventure every day, so we will always have fresh players to test that. And, on top of that, I'm sure there will be people like yourself, willing to do that testing on their own. Not to mention Trendy testers, who I'm sure plan to test early-stage difficulty level as part of major loot/stats revamp :)

@PTSFP Paul quote:

The reason for the complete wipe mirrors the issue that the game is having right now.  The mixture of old and new gear is causing a imbalance and a poor picture of the true difficulty of the game.  (See my testing regarding early game difficulty levels.)

Without a complete wipe its impossible to see if the gear drops are properly calibrated for new players.  Very VERY few new players have complete DS and DP gear sets.  This in-equality would continue.

@lukaszpicur quote:

If the re-roll will be based on the same algorithm that generates gear stats, what is the difference between finding items while playing the map and having old items completely re-rolled? I don't really see any.




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