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XP and loot should be distributed based on character performance


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You still get loot and gold.  If you choose to be more proactive and fight, you also get XP.  None of the characters in the game are exclusively made to build.  Just because you think fighting is icky doesn't mean you should be rewarded in full for doing nothing.  This is a hybrid tower defense/action RPG, players have the ability to, and are kind of expected to touch on both of those aspects.

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Players are expected to do as they please when they have options. Don't expect anyone to play any part of the game that they're not interested in, that's why we have options for how we play. For example, Diablo 3 has 6 classes, bounties, uber bosses, rifting, and greater rifting. There are options for players to do as they please. Dungeon Defenders 2 has 4 classes, hero stats, ability stats, and tower stats. There are options for players to do as they please.

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@tdb quote:


@Dresira quote:

Isukun, how come your primary argument for your idea is "U GUISE KAN'T REED! U R SO DUM" Rather than opening a proper dialogue about it?

He did reply reasonably enough when I expressed some concerns on page 3 or something.  I have to agree with his assessment of some of the people here; for instance in his last post Ninja_Kero seems to have picked up and idea that dps would have some kind of fixed damage quota and would be competing against defenses for meeting that quota.  He then latches on to that idea (which is completely false btw) and writes and entire long post about it.  Given that his whole contribution in this thread is a stream of similar misconceptions, I can't fault Isukun for responding the way he does.

Actually...  right here post one he said...


"To further combat gaming the system, both defenses and players have to hit a certain damage threshold before they gain efficiency.  This would stop people from building defenses taking a few swings with their fighter and getting 100% efficiency for basically doing nothing.  Damage thresholds would be based on the stage and averages of how much damage is done by defenses and players in stages based on play testing.  So say that average is 4 million for towers and 200,000 for players on a wave and you're playing with three other people.  Your fighter would need to do 25% of (200,000/4) or 12,500 before they go above 0% efficiency."


They would be competing for damage, because monsters have only so much health, and there are only so many to kill. If a builder kills too many of them too quickly, the dps will never hit the amount required to hit a fair efficiency, and it also lowers their overall ability to hit the maximum efficiency. I am also basing this off of arguments Iso Kun has made at various points, throughout the thread, where he stated how a fighter would need to do over x amount to start gaining, and how they may as well leave because they will get nothing in scenario x or y, among other comments that he has made to combat other flaws pointed out by myself and others. I will see if I can post related quotes for yah then to help you better understand. You should also not go along with somebody just because they're pretending to be all alpha and loudly proclaiming how great they are and stupid everyone else is, tdb.


The math further details how a lopsided amount of dps or builders would further contribute to the mess. I will admit it's a little complicated for some, but it does hold up if you choose to read through it again.


I notice there has been absolutely no response to my comment that playtesting will need to be redone every single time, among other things, when items, heroes, monsters, and line up change each time, to keep this idea working as written (as the dps meta will also alter accordingly). Each team will have varied types of dps. Some builds kill quick, some slow, some crowd control, some do not, etc. Not all teams will have four dps or one builder. You would need to playtest for each other grouping as well (two players, three), because that can also differ greatly in dps as compared to four.


Then again, you frequently label valid responses as too dumb to respond to when you simply can't give a proper answer. The only things you bother to reply to are misconceptions repeated all across the posters because you were extremely vague on many key points, and didn't write it out that well. That's why I asked all those 'dumb questions', because you only brought up new things to amend problems suddenly, and in responses spotted throughout the thread. It doesn't make you superior to clarify your bad writing, man. You should be doing it anyways, especially if practically everyone 'must not be getting it'.


You and I both know I brought up some heavy flaws in your idea. Pretending it's stupid of me to say won't make your idea any better, only fixing the problems with it will. In general there are too many issues as is, and in my opinion it ought to be scrapped.

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

If I'm a builder and someone else used all the defense units, where is my opportunity?

@Isukun quote:

How are you being punished?  You have the same opportunities as any other player.

He means you can suck it up and leave, start your own map, or be a fighter.

That's his view on how matches should be. You simply get nothing at all on that map unless you turn fighter. Also if you get to build, but only are allowed to make cc or low  amount of dps buildings, you're pretty much screwed. You get no fighter exp, he mentioned earlier, if you build. Since it's done by averages and dps, you still get nada.

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@Isukun quote:


@Ninja_Kero quote:

Builders will always get a high efficiency. Meaning that being a dps is pointless, and you can freely pop out a fighter and get exp for what again... doing nothing? That's if you read it as, a builder who fights gets no exp on the fighter.

Once again, zero comprehension on your part.  I'm not going to explain it for the umpteenth time.  It's like talking to a rock with you.  Yes, you can make that argument, if you completely read everything 100% wrong.  I suggest you re-read everything from the start, you're missing A LOT.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

 Considering the whole point of the handicap is to make it easier, either your handicap doesn't work as advertised, or it's exploitable. What you stated is opinion on how your own handicap works, and are now passing it off as immutable fact. 

You don't seem to understand how handicaps work.  Not surprising considering you haven't understood ANYTHING ELSE in this thread, either.  A multiplier is applied to weaker characters so that when they are compared to other characters, they are evaluated as if they have the same stats.  So if you have a character who does 1000 DPS and a character who does 500 DPS, if the 1000 DPS character does 20,000 damage in a wave, the 500 DPS character would only need to do 10,000 to be considered equivalent.  In practice, it takes the same amount of effort for the 500 DPS character to do 10,000 damage as it does for the 1000 DPS character to do 20,000, so the player with the handicap has no advantage over the player without.  Sorry, but that's pretty basic elementary school math.

Found it, one of the many posts he made where I drew from to point out the problem with the handicap and numbers.

He's evaluating them by stats for handicap as well as by a playtested groups averages. Once you understand this and that he actually did post things like these, you can understand my math in that previous post. I'm not making things up: he said these things himself. See the quotes.

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Players are expected to do as they please when they have options. Don't expect anyone to play any part of the game that they're not interested in, that's why we have options for how we play. For example, Diablo 3 has 6 classes, bounties, uber bosses, rifting, and greater rifting. There are options for players to do as they please. Dungeon Defenders 2 has 4 classes, hero stats, ability stats, and tower stats. There are options for players to do as they please.

^

Ghost, I don't think he understands the idea of people wanting to play differently than him. Zero empathy. He wants the game exactly as he wants it, without regards to the rest of the player base. It really shows in pretty much anything he posts. He's of the unchanging opinion that this needs to be specifically a hybrid only tower defense game that everyone needs to constantly be moving and working in.

I think they just need to move on to a console shooter and be done with it. They have the attitude for it anyway.

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Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Players are expected to do as they please when they have options. Don't expect anyone to play any part of the game that they're not interested in, that's why we have options for how we play. For example, Diablo 3 has 6 classes, bounties, uber bosses, rifting, and greater rifting. There are options for players to do as they please. Dungeon Defenders 2 has 4 classes, hero stats, ability stats, and tower stats. There are options for players to do as they please.

Actually there aren't as many options as you think.  Try solo without a builder.  It doesn't really work, no matter how much you build up your DPS.  Hell, full DPS teams don't work out so well at higher levels, either.  The game simply isn't structured to let people focus on that kind of specialization.  This is a problem that came up in the last devstream and I wouldn't be surprised to see the game balance swing back again to even out some of the imbalances between the two aspects of the game and prevent cases where you can just build without having to have DPS characters to pick up the slack.  So what you're looking for is more a special exception for your particular play style that doesn't apply to other play styles, which can't function independently due to current balance issues.  The game isn't JUST a tower defense game, so there's no reason they should dumb down the action RPG aspects just to benefit players who don't want to take part.  They certainly didn't do the opposite.  Hybrid games aren't made to offer players choices in that regard, they're made to put a different spin on an established genre and offer players a new experience.  If you don't like the new experience, there are other games that offer a more traditional one.

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@Ninja_Kero quote:


@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

If I'm a builder and someone else used all the defense units, where is my opportunity?

@Isukun quote:

How are you being punished?  You have the same opportunities as any other player.

He means you can suck it up and leave, start your own map, or be a fighter.

That's his view on how matches should be. You simply get nothing at all on that map unless you turn fighter. Also if you get to build, but only are allowed to make cc or low  amount of dps buildings, you're pretty much screwed. You get no fighter exp, he mentioned earlier, if you build. Since it's done by averages and dps, you still get nada.

That's correct. Weak builder's can't just go use up half the DU and mana or they end up losing the map for the team. Yet they will earn no xp at all and limited loot under this system for not building as a builder. The only option for a weak builder is to suffer with poor loot and no xp to be a team player and win. As I've mentioned before having only 1 player build is right now necessary for most incursion games. Rarely will there be multiple players with the right builders to cooperate on a build (although it has happened). I should mention the only time more than one player ever contributes to a build, the second player is only ever building non-damage dealing objects. Those would be buff banners, and sploosh traps.

Maps don't currently have enough mana dropped or enough DU to spend either of those resources at random. I lost one map because people didn't listen and upgraded some LA instead of the airguards. The airguards were only level 3 instead of 4 and that's all it took. A tiny discrepancy in the build. Letting 2 people split 50% of the damage dealing DU up even when one of them is under-geared... failure.

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@Isukun quote:

Actually there aren't as many options as you think.  Try solo without a builder.  It doesn't really work, no matter how much you build up your DPS.  Hell, full DPS teams don't work out so well at higher levels, either.  The game simply isn't structured to let people focus on that kind of specialization.  This is a problem that came up in the last devstream and I wouldn't be surprised to see the game balance swing back again to even out some of the imbalances between the two aspects of the game and prevent cases where you can just build without having to have DPS characters to pick up the slack.  So what you're looking for is more a special exception for your particular play style that doesn't apply to other play styles, which can't function independently due to current balance issues.  The game isn't JUST a tower defense game, so there's no reason they should dumb down the action RPG aspects just to benefit players who don't want to take part.  They certainly didn't do the opposite.  Hybrid games aren't made to offer players choices in that regard, they're made to put a different spin on an established genre and offer players a new experience.  If you don't like the new experience, there are other games that offer a more traditional one.

The whole point of having different stats like hero and tower stats are so there are multiple ways to play, and if you don't want to play a certain way then you have that right. I watched a dev stream where this game is meant to be played with 4 players. This means that you can solo if you wish, but generally choose how you play; ability damage or what have you. As I said I'm not interested in the dps part of the game, and if it's lacking then it's because the game is still young. The game isn't JUST a tower defense, but if you only want to play with towers then you have that choice as with any other game that offers choice in gamepay, which is a lot of games. Your whole point is how loot and experience should be distributed anyway.

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I think they just need to update the end screen to better the representation of how everyones doing. Wether thats hero dps, or Tower dps. I don't think threre should be any bonuses for doing better than someone else - but, and only if you are failing at a map really hard. You can take a look at the data from your last game and see how everyone is helping contribute, find out why you arn't able to clear a wave, see who is helping upgrade, repair, CC, ect. So not even pure Damage. Just overal contribution. Again I don't think people should be judged by the game on their performance. But you should be able to be judged by your peers properly for your performance in a game. If its easy to tell who is auto attacking one wave not doing any abilitys/Helping repair/Upgrade ect, it might be a good sign that, that person isn't trying to pull their weight :)

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:


@Isukun quote:

Actually there aren't as many options as you think.  Try solo without a builder.  It doesn't really work, no matter how much you build up your DPS.  Hell, full DPS teams don't work out so well at higher levels, either.  The game simply isn't structured to let people focus on that kind of specialization.  This is a problem that came up in the last devstream and I wouldn't be surprised to see the game balance swing back again to even out some of the imbalances between the two aspects of the game and prevent cases where you can just build without having to have DPS characters to pick up the slack.  So what you're looking for is more a special exception for your particular play style that doesn't apply to other play styles, which can't function independently due to current balance issues.  The game isn't JUST a tower defense game, so there's no reason they should dumb down the action RPG aspects just to benefit players who don't want to take part.  They certainly didn't do the opposite.  Hybrid games aren't made to offer players choices in that regard, they're made to put a different spin on an established genre and offer players a new experience.  If you don't like the new experience, there are other games that offer a more traditional one.

The whole point of having different stats like hero and tower stats are so there are multiple ways to play, and if you don't want to play a certain way then you have that right. I watched a dev stream where this game is meant to be played with 4 players. This means that you can solo if you wish, but generally choose how you play; ability damage or what have you. As I said I'm not interested in the dps part of the game, and if it's lacking then it's because the game is still young. The game isn't JUST a tower defense, but if you only want to play with towers then you have that choice as with any other game that offers choice in gamepay, which is a lot of games. Your whole point is how loot and experience should be distributed anyway.

Another issue here is this person is attempting to make the basic game in general fully hybrid.

While dd1 was technically hybrid, it still played heavily as a tower defense, as tower defense games, the good ones that are well liked anyway, are more... 60% tower, 40% dps, or higher ratios of tower.

Changing the entire game for one type of player is not even close to the answer. Btw, making the regular game soloable by dps is very different from making it soloable by towers. Dps is holding down buttons and aiming at monsters, and running around hitting buttons in their general direction. Tower building is smartly setting up a defense to stop a horde of enemies. Dps style gameplay is done to death by.... so very many games. Tower defense play is a rather specific niche. You want to be very careful with that niche, as you can alienate a lot of players by making it too much like call of duty with a staff instead of a gun. Also of note is that if a dps can solo a map, it means dps is unbalanced and makes it rather... easy. Heroes are meant to back up defences in main game, not vice versa.

The real answer, imo, is dd1's answer. Just... make something for everyone. Dps maps or challenges for dps that gave dps rewards (optional). Hybrid maps for well... hybrid players. Pure defense maps for pure defense. Balancing for all styles at once is a nightmare, balancing for each individually but making it technically possible for one or both other types... easily doable and much more satisfying.


Choice is extremely important.

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

The whole point of having different stats like hero and tower stats are so there are multiple ways to play, and if you don't want to play a certain way then you have that right. I watched a dev stream where this game is meant to be played with 4 players. This means that you can solo if you wish, but generally choose how you play; ability damage or what have you. As I said I'm not interested in the dps part of the game, and if it's lacking then it's because the game is still young. The game isn't JUST a tower defense, but if you only want to play with towers then you have that choice as with any other game that offers choice in gamepay, which is a lot of games. Your whole point is how loot and experience should be distributed anyway.

And yet, there are people who WANT to play solo and the devs WANT to improve that aspect of the game and there are people who may WANT to play strictly DPS, but I guess their choices don't matter, only the specific one you wish to make.  Having different stats does give you some choices in how you approach problems, but it shouldn't allow you to ignore half of the game.  Like I said, it doesn't work from the other end, and that's due to the way the game is balanced.  They aren't going to retool it to make DPS's able to crush a stage, though.  If they rebalance, it will be to make things harder for builders so both roles are necessary in a stage.  At that point, if you want to do anything outside of multiplayer, you're going to HAVE to get your hands dirty and actually fight.  That's not a betrayal towards you or a denial of choices.  The choice you're talking about now is only viable due to a game imbalance.  Are you going to complain when they rebalance to make DPS more viable that you can't solo anymore without having to actually use a weapon?

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I was never interested in playing solo as I've always enjoyed playing with others. You seem to be complaining that the game just isn't up to your standards. Right now the only reason for me to play is to farm wyvern tokens or find that last legendary, so I am choosing to not play all the time.


Having different stats does allow you to ignore half the game, because that's where freedom of choice comes in. If I never want to play a healer in World of Warcraft I am never required to. Likewise, if I never want to play hero damage in Dungeon Defenders 2 then I am not required to.

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@Isukun quote:


@Griede Starless quote:

that is also only part of the problem, as after a lot of thought I figured out that isukun was also referring to the fact that the builder only gets exp for the build, if they are present during the wave. which is problematic if you need dps. not as much an issue in multiplayer, but annoying when in single player.

as such, this system would be an 'add-on' to the current system. potential flaws still exist for this system, but that is my understanding of the current problem, and the proposal to fix it.

Why is that problematic in single player?  The only thing that contributes to your ability to deal out damage is gear, gear properties are random based on the stage you're playing, and the only class specific gear are weapons.  XP has nothing to do with that.  Worst case scenario would be using three characters in solo with two builders and one DPS.  If they all get 100% efficiency, any weapon drop would have a 33% chance of being from one of each of those classes.  


It's also possible you could try an alternative system that checks against each character's efficiency to determine possible double or even triple drops on weapon drops.  For instance, if you're using two characters in a multiplayer game, one for building and one for DPS.  Say your DPS is at 100% efficiency, but your builder is only 50%.  You get a random weapon drop during a wave, it would automatically drop a weapon for your DPS, but would have a 50% chance of dropping a weapon for your builder, too.  I'm not sure how exploitable this would be, though.  Obviously a 0% efficiency would mean no weapon drops with an exception for a player who is using only one character (weapons would have to go to the lone character).  Could be interesting, though, and would make sense with how the XP system works.

ya know.. here is a very good example of someone failing to READ anything.

>isukun< verbatim stated that only the hero present in a wave gets xp with the current system. indeed, he went through GREAT PAINS to explain that xp is doled out, in mass, at the end of the wave, to everyone present. that there is no difference in weather you build or dps currently, you ALL get the exact same xp

so >isukun<, contemplate this? you reading? pppplease start reading?

if I build a map solo with my monk, and then switch to my huntress for dps because I need it for the specials, at the end of the wave, who gets the experience? again, im playing by myself. got an answer?

by your definition, the huntress gets all the xp.

now, lets try this again, how can I, solo, gain experience on my builder with the current system? by sitting through the wave with my builder.

now, lets try something else- since im assumeing you actually PLAY the game instead of sitting on the forums just creating words that don't mean anything. what happens if I take my monk, build a map, then change out all his gear and orbs for dps? got an answer? it drops all of my auras stats back down. so how is this going to help me solo a map if I need my defenses at their best?

so again, how is it an issue to solo? hmm? (SARCASUM FONT)

and ya know, the biggest point id make here is that I actually went back through and reread all the stuff you posted. and then I actually COMPLIMENTED your post, and you STILL go out of your way to bash me.

you have only proven that either you stay up to late at night answering posts, or that you yourself don't bother to try and read what people post.


also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

if there are 300 mobs in a wave, and the defenses kill 298 of them, how exactly are 4 players going to get any kind off quota off of 2 goblins? that are at 10% health? hmm?

we were very patiently trying to point out that you are not acknowledging that there isn't an infinite amount of damage that can be done, there is a very real hard cap.

the hard cap is based directly off the amount of mobs there are per wave, per map. and once each map is cast, the amount of each mob is more or less determined to a degree. in that, there is only so much hp total for all the mobs. for all the waves, and for the entire map.

 that being said, the amount of POTENTIAL DAMAGE for the map, is set by the total hp of all mobs. and again, when the defences can kill 80 - 90% of all the mobs, including specials (possible at least with monk and the uber lightning auras) you are still left with very few mobs with which the dps must all TRY to damage at least a little bit, or receive no credit for their participation.

now, lets try this again. I AKNOWLEDGED that your system would allow all of a players characters that participated in a wave, to receive experience based off that participation, which atm does not exist.

I also AKNOWLEDGED that yes, there should be some deference between afkers, and people who contribute.

now maby you can READ and UNDERSTAND that if I play in multiplayer and kill ALL OF THE MOBS WITH MY DEFENCES<<<<<<<<<<<<< then how will anyone else get credit?

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@Ninja_Kero quote:


@tdb quote:


@Dresira quote:

Isukun, how come your primary argument for your idea is "U GUISE KAN'T REED! U R SO DUM" Rather than opening a proper dialogue about it?

He did reply reasonably enough when I expressed some concerns on page 3 or something.  I have to agree with his assessment of some of the people here; for instance in his last post Ninja_Kero seems to have picked up and idea that dps would have some kind of fixed damage quota and would be competing against defenses for meeting that quota.  He then latches on to that idea (which is completely false btw) and writes and entire long post about it.  Given that his whole contribution in this thread is a stream of similar misconceptions, I can't fault Isukun for responding the way he does.

Actually...  right here post one he said...


"To further combat gaming the system, both defenses and players have to hit a certain damage threshold before they gain efficiency.  This would stop people from building defenses taking a few swings with their fighter and getting 100% efficiency for basically doing nothing.  Damage thresholds would be based on the stage and averages of how much damage is done by defenses and players in stages based on play testing.  So say that average is 4 million for towers and 200,000 for players on a wave and you're playing with three other people.  Your fighter would need to do 25% of (200,000/4) or 12,500 before they go above 0% efficiency."

actually, id also like to point something else out

what moron believes that the person building all the defences, FOR THE ENTIRE map is doing nothing?

that quote spells out that

 'there should be a system implemented to prevent someone from building defences, the getting their fighter and takeing a single swing to get 100% efficiency.'

excuse me, seriously, do you have any idea how long it takes to grind enough gear to do ANY of the defences for incursion? ima just go ahead and insert this answer ----- NO, you obviously don't.

to try and even conceive of this idea that builders do nothing to contribute is idiotic. and its statements like that that get you a lot of the possibly unfairly based criticism ISUKUN. I try to be fairly fair in my statements, but you cant blame us for not takeing the time to reword something to be a tad more clear, when you are obviously able too but chose not to.

caveat to this, its dumb to bring up an idea, try hard to defend it, but bash anyone who finds a flaw in it, instead of actually listening to them. as near everyone who has replyed to this post are trying to help YOU make the idea better.

so if you want your idea to be better (or at the very least viable) then fix it, other wise stop being upset that people find fault with it. that's what we are supposed to do.

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@Griede Starless quote:

also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

And at what point was I bashing your post?  I didn't insult you, talk down to you, or act like a general ass.  I disagreed with your assessment, explained how the system worked and offered an alternative if that wasn't satisfactory.  Your response to that is to act like an ass?  And you wonder why I get a little hostile at times.


As for the first part of your post, you're confusing what I mean by "current system."  When I speak of the current system, I'm not talking about my proposal, but the currently existing system they are using in the game, now, which only awards standard XP to the characters who are present during the combat phase. If your builder is not present, they can only earn XP through bonuses, which award significantly less and require you to play a certain way.  How can my system be the "current system" if it's not implemented?  what you've basically done is attribute a problem that only exists in the game right now to my system which eliminates it by allowing your builders and your DPS to gain XP and loot simultaneously, so there's no need to change your gear or even use that character as a DPS when playing solo.  And you try to use this as an argument against the proposed system?  If I seem confused by your post, it's because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they understand what they're responding to, unless they give me cause to doubt that.

@Griede Starless quote:

also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

if there are 300 mobs in a wave, and the defenses kill 298 of them, how exactly are 4 players going to get any kind off quota off of 2 goblins? that are at 10% health? hmm?

I have responded to this, several times.  Basically, you're asking how those people who sat there and did nothing for the duration of the wave will get credit.  And as I've said before, credit for what?  Credit for sitting there?  Credit for doing nothing?  Even with the proposed system, they're still getting loot and gold, so it's not a complete waste of their time, but I really don't think players should advance if they aren't playing the game.  

@Griede Starless quote:

what moron believes that the person building all the defences, FOR THE ENTIRE map is doing nothing?

That would be the devs.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

That's correct. Weak builder's can't just go use up half the DU and mana or they end up losing the map for the team. Yet they will earn no xp at all and limited loot under this system for not building as a builder. The only option for a weak builder is to suffer with poor loot and no xp to be a team player and win. As I've mentioned before having only 1 player build is right now necessary for most incursion games. Rarely will there be multiple players with the right builders to cooperate on a build (although it has happened). I should mention the only time more than one player ever contributes to a build, the second player is only ever building non-damage dealing objects. Those would be buff banners, and sploosh traps.

Maps don't currently have enough mana dropped or enough DU to spend either of those resources at random. I lost one map because people didn't listen and upgraded some LA instead of the airguards. The airguards were only level 3 instead of 4 and that's all it took. A tiny discrepancy in the build. Letting 2 people split 50% of the damage dealing DU up even when one of them is under-geared... failure.

Just a question, how does the game work, now?  Oh, right, weak builders can't build because they end up losing the map for the team.  So how do they gear up and level now?  Oh right, they have to play as DPS.  Given that the proposed system offers a handicap to make up for the weaker players, so their XP gain is the same as stronger players and loot drops are totally unaffected, what's the problem, again?

@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

I was never interested in playing solo as I've always enjoyed playing with others. You seem to be complaining that the game just isn't up to your standards. Right now the only reason for me to play is to farm wyvern tokens or find that last legendary, so I am choosing to not play all the time.


Having different stats does allow you to ignore half the game, because that's where freedom of choice comes in. If I never want to play a healer in World of Warcraft I am never required to. Likewise, if I never want to play hero damage in Dungeon Defenders 2 then I am not required to.

Actually, I'm pointing out how it doesn't meet your standards outside of your personal interests.  You're also confusing choices offered through character classes and customizable stats.  Saying that World of Warcraft doesn't force you to play a healer is like saying DDII doesn't force you to play as a Squire, which it doesn't.  If you play as a healer in WoW, though, the existence of different stats doesn't mean that the game is giving you a choice of building a DPS healer who never uses any healing abilities to focus on fighting hand-to-hand.

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@Isukun quote:





@Griede Starless quote:

also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

if there are 300 mobs in a wave, and the defenses kill 298 of them, how exactly are 4 players going to get any kind off quota off of 2 goblins? that are at 10% health? hmm?

I have responded to this, several times.  Basically, you're asking how those people who sat there and did nothing for the duration of the wave will get credit.  And as I've said before, credit for what?  Credit for sitting there?  Credit for doing nothing?  Even with the proposed system, they're still getting loot and gold, so it's not a complete waste of their time, but I really don't think players should advance if they aren't playing the game.  


The only time this happens is if the builder is overgeared, has a solid build or afkable one or they just spawn camp with towers.

So if the fighter acctualy try to kill but cant what can they do nothing thats ah big flaw.

The same is true of fighter's but thats only if they get properly balanced.

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That's not really a flaw with the system, though, it's a flaw with the balance in the game.  A lot of people have concerns about how the game is balanced to favor defenses over DPS.  It even came up again in the last Devstream, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that rectified down the line.  Of course, you're never going to fix every problem and there will always be that guy who just wants to be a ***, but that's what moderation tools are for.


Honestly, if a guy is that overgeared, he's not doing enough to challenge himself and could be playing on a higher tier.  People don't buy into a game like this to sit around, they want some gameplay with their reward system and a guy who solo builds in a multiplayer match and doesn't allow the other players to DPS is simply disrupting the game.  They don't really have anything to gain by playing down like that as the better loot will be at the higher tiers.  I also don't see the appeal of playing with a friend who does all the work.  It's not really that fun to watch someone else play over the internet.  Hotseat, I could see, maybe, but over the internet, sitting in front of the computer by yourself, it's like the antithesis of social gaming.

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Personal interests don't always have to deal with standards. Also, the Shaman in World of Warcraft can use healing spells, ranged damage spells, and melee spells. The paladin can use healing spells and melee damage spells. Are you familiar with what you're talking about?

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@SU4944 quote:


@Isukun quote:
@Griede Starless quote:

also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

if there are 300 mobs in a wave, and the defenses kill 298 of them, how exactly are 4 players going to get any kind off quota off of 2 goblins? that are at 10% health? hmm?

I have responded to this, several times.  Basically, you're asking how those people who sat there and did nothing for the duration of the wave will get credit.  And as I've said before, credit for what?  Credit for sitting there?  Credit for doing nothing?  Even with the proposed system, they're still getting loot and gold, so it's not a complete waste of their time, but I really don't think players should advance if they aren't playing the game.  


The only time this happens is if the builder is overgeared, has a solid build or afkable one or they just spawn camp with towers.

So if the fighter acctualy try to kill but cant what can they do nothing thats ah big flaw.

The same is true of fighter's but thats only if they get properly balanced.

Every map can be AFKed during the round stage and won currently.

I was trying to be nice but let me put it this way. Those players are getting loot and xp for suffering in a game with you, Isukun. Someone who wants to use people for the extra loot chance but wants to crack the whip on them to DPS non-stop just to satisfy himself. There is no justification for needing the hero dps on any map currently but you demand it anyway. We've tried to explain this many different ways to you but you don't get it. You don't understand that everyone enjoys the game in different ways.

Just as more proof your ideas are all poorly thought out... a squire can equip a sword that does +150 tower buff AOE. He could stand on group of towers the whole match. He would be contributing damage by standing still on a group of towers the whole match. Isukun just can't stand those people though. How dare he contribute by not moving and hitting stuff. Its your own personal biases here. You just want to dictate how everyone else must act in game. You think forcing people into doing something is going to make them enjoy it and make the game better. It will not.


@Isukun quote: It's not really that fun to watch someone else play over the internet.  Hotseat, I could see, maybe, but over the internet, sitting in front of the computer by yourself, it's like the antithesis of social gaming.

Do you realize that "Lets play" and other game videos are one of the biggest sections of YouTube? I guess not. People watch other people build and learn from it. There is value to such a thing. There's nothing social about DPSing nonstop like a slave to a quota system. Simply having your friends in the same game doesn't make the experience any different than playing with bots. Know what I do when I play with my friends? I talk with them. Imagine that. We have fun. We put in just as much effort as is needed to win a match and joke around and have fun the rest of the time.

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@› Rabid Lemming quote:



@SU4944 quote:


@Isukun quote:
@Griede Starless quote:

also, I would point out that you miss a very valid argument, and go out of your way to bash it or ignore it altogether

if there are 300 mobs in a wave, and the defenses kill 298 of them, how exactly are 4 players going to get any kind off quota off of 2 goblins? that are at 10% health? hmm?

I have responded to this, several times.  Basically, you're asking how those people who sat there and did nothing for the duration of the wave will get credit.  And as I've said before, credit for what?  Credit for sitting there?  Credit for doing nothing?  Even with the proposed system, they're still getting loot and gold, so it's not a complete waste of their time, but I really don't think players should advance if they aren't playing the game.  


The only time this happens is if the builder is overgeared, has a solid build or afkable one or they just spawn camp with towers.

So if the fighter acctualy try to kill but cant what can they do nothing thats ah big flaw.

The same is true of fighter's but thats only if they get properly balanced.

Every map can be AFKed during the round stage and won currently.

I was trying to be nice but let me put it this way. Those players are getting loot and xp for suffering in a game with you, Isukun. Someone who wants to use people for the extra loot chance but wants to crack the whip on them to DPS non-stop just to satisfy himself. There is no justification for needing the hero dps on any map currently but you demand it anyway. We've tried to explain this many different ways to you but you don't get it. You don't understand that everyone enjoys the game in different ways.

Just as more proof your ideas are all poorly thought out... a squire can equip a sword that does +150 tower buff AOE. He could stand on group of towers the whole match. He would be contributing damage by standing still on a group of towers the whole match. Isukun just can't stand those people though. How dare he contribute by not moving and hitting stuff. Its your own personal biases here. You just want to dictate how everyone else must act in game. You think forcing people into doing something is going to make them enjoy it and make the game better. It will not.


@Isukun quote: It's not really that fun to watch someone else play over the internet.  Hotseat, I could see, maybe, but over the internet, sitting in front of the computer by yourself, it's like the antithesis of social gaming.

Do you realize that "Lets play" and other game videos are one of the biggest sections of YouTube? I guess not. People watch other people build and learn from it. There is value to such a thing. There's nothing social about DPSing nonstop like a slave to a quota system. Simply having your friends in the same game doesn't make the experience any different than playing with bots. Know what I do when I play with my friends? I talk with them. Imagine that. We have fun. We put in just as much effort as is needed to win a match and joke around and have fun the rest of the time.

Yeah... if we want a hardcore nightmarish challenge requiring all our concentration, we'd try a high level map on some sort of toggled hardcore, nightmare mode :p Or play a map way about our current gear but try to get through it anyway. There's a major difference between opting into intense play and having it throughout the entire game on every level of it.

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Personal interests don't always have to deal with standards. Also, the Shaman in World of Warcraft can use healing spells, ranged damage spells, and melee spells. The paladin can use healing spells and melee damage spells. Are you familiar with what you're talking about?

I don't play WoW, so I'm not familiar with the particulars of their classes.  I do know, however, that other games don't have classes that allow you to ignore core game elements.  Generally, games just don't work that way unless you're looking at sandbox titles.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

Just as more proof your ideas are all poorly thought out... a squire can equip a sword that does +150 tower buff AOE. He could stand on group of towers the whole match. He would be contributing damage by standing still on a group of towers the whole match.

For which he would be getting credit since boosts and buff damage are credited to the supplier of the boost or buff, not the tower.  So how am I hating on that character?


Being able to AFK on every map is a balance issue based on the current state of the game, which will change.  They've mentioned changing difficulty based on number of players, which would make it harder to AFK stages when you have more people.


And if playing the game is suffering, why are you playing this game?  I'm sorry, but your whole argument stems from the idea that gameplay = torture.  That's about as asinine as you can get.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

Do you realize that "Lets play" and other game videos are one of the biggest sections of YouTube? I guess not. People watch other people build and learn from it. There is value to such a thing. There's nothing social about DPSing nonstop like a slave to a quota system. Simply having your friends in the same game doesn't make the experience any different than playing with bots. Know what I do when I play with my friends? I talk with them. Imagine that. We have fun. We put in just as much effort as is needed to win a match and joke around and have fun the rest of the time.

AFKing and Lets Plays are different.  There's a big difference between actually watching what someone is doing to pick up on game mechanics and strategy and simply AFKing to get free XP and loot.  And there are a lot of people who don't simply think of a game as a chat venue.  Sure, I talk to my friends when we play and we goof off, but we also play the game, that's why we're there, after all.  For us, playing together is a good opportunity to try harder stages and gear up because of the greater communication and willingness to work together.


Multiplayer boosts your capabilities and your reward.  Most other games would still require or at least encourage other players to participate in multiplayer.  They don't allow other players to just sit there while someone else carries them up the progression chain.  They throttle XP if they grant it at all, they lock loot to the player who made the kill, or they use one or many of the multiple other restrictions games incorporate to encourage everyone to participate and play together.  You make this seem like some sort of obscure, never heard of before, travesty, when it's actually pretty common in games to actively prevent players from doing nothing.  In any other game, having a system where you can get to the max level and get all of the best gear without ever having to play the game at the same pace as someone who worked their ass off to get there, would be completely unheard of.  


And lets also not forget that the door is flung wide for pretty rampant cheating.  Rather than hacking accounts like the previous game, people will just run multiple accounts so they can take advantage of free XP and loot on multiple accounts at a time.  After all, if we're just supposed to sit there and soak in the XP and loot and never actually do anything in the game, then the game kind of encourages this approach.  That's not exactly advantageous for Trendy and their efforts to monetize the game, either.  You just get a lot of server strain from people who aren't going to buy anything, and instead spend all their time farming for high level gear to trade or sell.

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@Isukun quote:


@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Personal interests don't always have to deal with standards. Also, the Shaman in World of Warcraft can use healing spells, ranged damage spells, and melee spells. The paladin can use healing spells and melee damage spells. Are you familiar with what you're talking about?

I don't play WoW, so I'm not familiar with the particulars of their classes.  I do know, however, that other games don't have classes that allow you to ignore core game elements.  Generally, games just don't work that way unless you're looking at sandbox titles.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

Just as more proof your ideas are all poorly thought out... a squire can equip a sword that does +150 tower buff AOE. He could stand on group of towers the whole match. He would be contributing damage by standing still on a group of towers the whole match.

For which he would be getting credit since boosts and buff damage are credited to the supplier of the boost or buff, not the tower.  So how am I hating on that character?


Being able to AFK on every map is a balance issue based on the current state of the game, which will change.  They've mentioned changing difficulty based on number of players, which would make it harder to AFK stages when you have more people.


And if playing the game is suffering, why are you playing this game?  I'm sorry, but your whole argument stems from the idea that gameplay = torture.  That's about as asinine as you can get.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

Do you realize that "Lets play" and other game videos are one of the biggest sections of YouTube? I guess not. People watch other people build and learn from it. There is value to such a thing. There's nothing social about DPSing nonstop like a slave to a quota system. Simply having your friends in the same game doesn't make the experience any different than playing with bots. Know what I do when I play with my friends? I talk with them. Imagine that. We have fun. We put in just as much effort as is needed to win a match and joke around and have fun the rest of the time.

AFKing and Lets Plays are different.  There's a big difference between actually watching what someone is doing to pick up on game mechanics and strategy and simply AFKing to get free XP and loot.  And there are a lot of people who don't simply think of a game as a chat venue.  Sure, I talk to my friends when we play and we goof off, but we also play the game, that's why we're there, after all.  For us, playing together is a good opportunity to try harder stages and gear up because of the greater communication and willingness to work together.


Multiplayer boosts your capabilities and your reward.  Most other games would still require or at least encourage other players to participate in multiplayer.  They don't allow other players to just sit there while someone else carries them up the progression chain.  They throttle XP if they grant it at all, they lock loot to the player who made the kill, or they use one or many of the multiple other restrictions games incorporate to encourage everyone to participate and play together.  You make this seem like some sort of obscure, never heard of before, travesty, when it's actually pretty common in games to actively prevent players from doing nothing.  In any other game, having a system where you can get to the max level and get all of the best gear without ever having to play the game at the same pace as someone who worked their ass off to get there, would be completely unheard of.  


And lets also not forget that the door is flung wide for pretty rampant cheating.  Rather than hacking accounts like the previous game, people will just run multiple accounts so they can take advantage of free XP and loot on multiple accounts at a time.  After all, if we're just supposed to sit there and soak in the XP and loot and never actually do anything in the game, then the game kind of encourages this approach.  That's not exactly advantageous for Trendy and their efforts to monetize the game, either.  You just get a lot of server strain from people who aren't going to buy anything, and instead spend all their time farming for high level gear to trade or sell.

1. Actually ignoring core game elements is common in games. From the knight moving an L shape in chess, to an otherwise crappy hero in a game having one game breaking/changing element that makes them worth giving a try. Summoners had moving towers that could self heal, I recall. Pretty much a heavy percent of the cards in magic the gathering take the rules and alter them. Etc.

2. You're the one not getting it. They're stating that playing it in the way you want to force others to play is torture. Not playing the game itself. Playing it your way. People have varying tastes and opinions, you still don't get that? Really? You're trying to turn a top down strategy game into a side scrolling shooter. Or hockey into football. Yeah, it's gonna make people upset and leave. Which is exactly why so many people are so adamant about saying no, this is an extremely bad idea as it is currently, because you're tailoring it to yourself first and foremost.

3. There are always going to be ways for those people to do that. Example, when you said Squires with buff swords get counted if they afk while buffing a tower. Simple. The person with multiple accounts puts a sword on squire, boosts with monk, and i dunno, throws down an ice for apprentice and plays on the huntress or puts it on auto click towards a lane or tapes down the button. Or has huntress as one of the main damage dealers via traps. Oh... you mentioned initiating a combo. Mhm. Geysers. Okay so afk for all.


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