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XP and loot should be distributed based on character performance


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Actually, since you're so adamant about this, and since you do have something of a point, behind all the acid, I think I'll start encouraging the above examples at least. While I and many others may not agree with your method, I do agree that more group interactive players could use some interactive elements somewhere in the game. Both personal based and teamwork wise. As well as builder based, which will likely require heavy weather or map type usage.

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@› Rabid Lemming quote:

1. Players drop mana since most players in Incursion are not capable of building. Even if say, a mage could be capable of building betsy (which I've never once seen aside from Legacy gear), it would require that person to have... ALL the mana. A build just doesn't work at this stage of development if everyone sticks whatever random thing wherever they want to. I've lost matches simply because people upgrade the wrong defenses. There is little to no room for improvisation.

And the system doesn't force people to play any particular way.  It encourages.  If a group wants to rely on one person to build they can, and it doesn't penalize them for doing so, it just offers some compensation for the characters who build.  Apart from that, it would be business as usual.  Characters that aren't used, wouldn't get XP.  Characters who fight, get XP for their efforts.  Builders are encouraged to have a fighter in their deck and vary their play style so they can build multiple characters at a time.  Or, if they want, they can have a full builder deck and have a more relaxed role in the combat round without it impacting the other players or their own XP.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

2. Your idea of getting better fun and game play is to hold a gun to everyone's head and say, do this or get NOTHING. What fun! We are talking about human nature and nobody wants to work their butt off to do something that some towers are going to do anyway. Your changes are only to penalize people for doing something they don't currently have to do to win.

Wrong, again.  It says do SOMETHING or get nothing.  There's a big difference.  The system doesn't force people into any particular gameplay style and offers a lot of wiggle room in terms of how much you actually have to do to get 100%.  With handicaps you could even get full XP with underleveled or undergeared characters and still put in less effort than the other players.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

3. I'll move on whenever I feel like it. You are trying to change the game that all of us play. You don't seem to understand that it's going to get you some criticism. We aren't going to remain silent and just let you creep in and take our loot and xp. 

The system as presented doesn't allow for a loss of loot.  Gold and loot drop rates remain the same, the only difference is distribution as loot will be split between your active characters at rates relative to their performance.  As for XP, you only lose XP for inactivity.  Overall, XP gains would be higher because there is greater potential for more characters in a stage to get full XP.  So there is no loss of XP or loot unless you don't do anything.

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@Isukun quote:


@› Rabid Lemming quote:

1. Players drop mana since most players in Incursion are not capable of building. Even if say, a mage could be capable of building betsy (which I've never once seen aside from Legacy gear), it would require that person to have... ALL the mana. A build just doesn't work at this stage of development if everyone sticks whatever random thing wherever they want to. I've lost matches simply because people upgrade the wrong defenses. There is little to no room for improvisation.

And the system doesn't force people to play any particular way.  It encourages.  If a group wants to rely on one person to build they can, and it doesn't penalize them for doing so, it just offers some compensation for the characters who build.  Apart from that, it would be business as usual.  Characters that aren't used, wouldn't get XP.  Characters who fight, get XP for their efforts.  Builders are encouraged to have a fighter in their deck and vary their play style so they can build multiple characters at a time.  Or, if they want, they can have a full builder deck and have a more relaxed role in the combat round without it impacting the other players or their own XP.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

2. Your idea of getting better fun and game play is to hold a gun to everyone's head and say, do this or get NOTHING. What fun! We are talking about human nature and nobody wants to work their butt off to do something that some towers are going to do anyway. Your changes are only to penalize people for doing something they don't currently have to do to win.

Wrong, again.  It says do SOMETHING or get nothing.  There's a big difference.  The system doesn't force people into any particular gameplay style and offers a lot of wiggle room in terms of how much you actually have to do to get 100%.  With handicaps you could even get full XP with underleveled or undergeared characters and still put in less effort than the other players.

@› Rabid Lemming quote:

3. I'll move on whenever I feel like it. You are trying to change the game that all of us play. You don't seem to understand that it's going to get you some criticism. We aren't going to remain silent and just let you creep in and take our loot and xp. 

The system as presented doesn't allow for a loss of loot.  Gold and loot drop rates remain the same, the only difference is distribution as loot will be split between your active characters at rates relative to their performance.  As for XP, you only lose XP for inactivity.  Overall, XP gains would be higher because there is greater potential for more characters in a stage to get full XP.  So there is no loss of XP or loot unless you don't do anything.

Translation from Isu-kun speak:


1. Builders aren't encouraged to have a dps in their deck. It actually encourages an afker to be main and only builder. As you describe it yourself, it is based off of what damage you do, with handicaps on low gear and levels. A builder who doesn't get to build can't quickly level their builder. Because their gear will be good on their main builders, and by the way, if somebody wanted to, this means they could trick the system by wearing low gear purposefully and still doing minimal damage the handicap grants. So really it encourages builders and players in general to equip random low gear and use a spell twice then afk for even more exp. Great handicap! Muhaahahaha.

2. See above. The only person who gets to ever relax is the person who builds, and seeing as how many players here like to relax, even if you hate it, this means there will be more fighting over who gets to do so, as they can afk straight after for extra exp to boot. Since many builders actually enjoy relaxing after a job well done, there will be quite a lot more bickering than usual. Which is fine. Muhaahahahaa.

3. Behind all the bs, it means that if you have a builder, unless you get to build it yourself, only your dps is going to see any real loot. Get ready to fight over who builds what, and all over the place. But hey, at least your dps will have lots of dps gear and gold. Distribution by performance baby. And guess what? With only 6 max heroes you can create, you can only have a dps version of two of the four hero types set aside from one of each of the four builders!! Two get the shaft! Muhaahahaa. Guess you'll just have to play as a dps on your builders just to get loot for them, which was totally advertised as a thing this was meant to avoid! Muhahahaa. Or you can cheat the system with like fifty different ways, killing the spirit and fun of the game. There are no flaws in this at all! Muhahahaha!



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@Ninja_Kero quote:

1. Builders aren't encouraged to have a dps in their deck. It actually encourages an afker to be main and only builder. As you describe it yourself, it is based off of what damage you do, with handicaps on low gear and levels. A builder who doesn't get to build can't quickly level their builder. Because their gear will be good on their main builders, and by the way, if somebody wanted to, this means they could trick the system by wearing low gear purposefully and still doing minimal damage the handicap grants. So really it encourages builders and players in general to equip random low gear and use a spell twice then afk for even more exp. Great handicap! Muhaahahaha.

Wow, your math skills are about as good as your reading comprehension.  Builders don't get XP from fighting if they are actively building.  I've stated this multiple times, now.  You only get your highest efficiency.  And regarding math, changing to less effective gear, even with the handicap, doesn't make it so you can pop off a couple moves and get equivalent XP to the players who are actually fighting.  All the handicap does is level the playing field in regards to the damage you have to do.  Half-assing with low level gear will still be seen as half-assing..  Nice try, but once again, your logic just doesn't work, here.

Translated from Ninja_Kero speak:

2. People don't like to actually play the game, so they should just get free stuff for nothing.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

3. Behind all the bs, it means that if you have a builder, unless you get to build it yourself, only your dps is going to see any real loot. Get ready to fight over who builds what, and all over the place. But hey, at least your dps will have lots of dps gear and gold. Distribution by performance baby. And guess what? With only 6 max heroes you can create, you can only have a dps version of two of the four hero types set aside from one of each of the four builders!! Two get the shaft! Muhaahahaa. Guess you'll just have to play as a dps on your builders just to get loot for them, which was totally advertised as a thing this was meant to avoid! Muhahahaa. Or you can cheat the system with like fifty different ways, killing the spirit and fun of the game. There are no flaws in this at all! Muhahahaha!

Hmm. Two builders and one DPS per deck, seems like a pretty even distribution to me.  Two decks = 6 characters.  And the alternative with the current system is people are encouraged to not play or your DPS gets all the loot.  You're bringing up gold again, which kind of suggests you don't even know how the game works, now.  And yet again you bring up boosted loot, which I've stated multiple times now, the drop rates are the same.  But hey, remaining ignorant makes it easy to keep arguing for the sake of arguing.

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I don't know what happened to my reply. I only play as a builder, as that's what I enjoy doing when I play any tower defense game, building. If I join a game where all the defense units are used, then how am I supposed to do anything? At that point, I'm just extra item chance for everyone else. That doesn't seem fair.

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Then you find a group where you can build or you fight like the other active characters in the combat phase.  If you're geared for building, the handicap will take care of any differences in your build when figuring your XP gain.  This isn't just a tower defense game and it shouldn't be structured like a casual social networking game, either.

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@Isukun quote: Characters that aren't used, wouldn't get XP.  Characters who fight, get XP for their efforts.  Builders are encouraged to have a fighter in their deck and vary their play style so they can build multiple characters at a time. 

Oh really. I thought I'd get you to say the opposite again.

@Isukun quote:

  Builders don't get XP from fighting if they are actively building.  I've stated this multiple times, now.  You only get your highest efficiency. 

So... you only get to pick one, you know.

Builders will always get a high efficiency. Meaning that being a dps is pointless, and you can freely pop out a fighter and get exp for what again... doing nothing? That's if you read it as, a builder who fights gets no exp on the fighter.

If you read it instead as, if a builder builds, they can't fight on the builder for more exp, again, they may as well relax once the buildings are down. The only way to relax becomes being a builder again.

See again, the problems mentioned above, where you went back and forth arguing one or the other to cover the other.

You only get to pick one of these.

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@Isukun quote:

All the handicap does is level the playing field in regards to the damage you have to do.  Half-assing with low level gear will still be seen as half-assing..  Nice try, but once again, your logic just doesn't work, here.

It doesn't, hmm? You got extremely vague about exactly how using low level gear for the handicap bonus won't make it easier on somebody using their dps. Considering the whole point of the handicap is to make it easier, either your handicap doesn't work as advertised, or it's exploitable. What you stated is opinion on how your own handicap works, and are now passing it off as immutable fact. When I say somebody will do the bare minimum that lowby gear would require for max exp, they are technically doing all the work required... for somebody wearing that gear. Some people actually do have bad luck on loot drops for their heroes. So unless you plan on heavily punishing the unlucky by also stalling out their progression further, I don't see how your opinion will do much to so much as even comfort those players.


You... you do realize that this is a game for fun, right? There are things called difficulty levels for the kind of play you're wanting here. You don't want to make players constantly work like dogs for their exp on every level of map, every difficulty, for their exp bonus. You also do not want active lower levels getting large amounts of exp and jumping way ahead of map progression either because of snowballing.

Especially if they make you take one map at a time, suddenly your levels take leaps and bounds, as you work hard level one, level two is easy with your jump in level power, level three is easier. It'll give a new player the impression that this game is like, nothing, after a few rounds. Sure you can balance around it by making it harder, but then you stating that it merely encourages players to work harder becomes a lie, as it moves from encouragement to hard rebalance towards 'everyone must work hard 24/7 land'. We have difficulty levels for this.

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@Ninja_Kero quote:

Builders will always get a high efficiency. Meaning that being a dps is pointless, and you can freely pop out a fighter and get exp for what again... doing nothing? That's if you read it as, a builder who fights gets no exp on the fighter.

Once again, zero comprehension on your part.  I'm not going to explain it for the umpteenth time.  It's like talking to a rock with you.  Yes, you can make that argument, if you completely read everything 100% wrong.  I suggest you re-read everything from the start, you're missing A LOT.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

 Considering the whole point of the handicap is to make it easier, either your handicap doesn't work as advertised, or it's exploitable. What you stated is opinion on how your own handicap works, and are now passing it off as immutable fact. 

You don't seem to understand how handicaps work.  Not surprising considering you haven't understood ANYTHING ELSE in this thread, either.  A multiplier is applied to weaker characters so that when they are compared to other characters, they are evaluated as if they have the same stats.  So if you have a character who does 1000 DPS and a character who does 500 DPS, if the 1000 DPS character does 20,000 damage in a wave, the 500 DPS character would only need to do 10,000 to be considered equivalent.  In practice, it takes the same amount of effort for the 500 DPS character to do 10,000 damage as it does for the 1000 DPS character to do 20,000, so the player with the handicap has no advantage over the player without.  Sorry, but that's pretty basic elementary school math.

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So if I'm a builder and I want to play while a lot of builders happen to be on, then I have to hope that I can find a game where I can build? I'm not interested in the hero damage part of the game, so I have less choice in actually playing the game?

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@Isukun quote:


@Ninja_Kero quote:

Builders will always get a high efficiency. Meaning that being a dps is pointless, and you can freely pop out a fighter and get exp for what again... doing nothing? That's if you read it as, a builder who fights gets no exp on the fighter.

Once again, zero comprehension on your part.  I'm not going to explain it for the umpteenth time.  It's like talking to a rock with you.  Yes, you can make that argument, if you completely read everything 100% wrong.  I suggest you re-read everything from the start, you're missing A LOT.

XD Oh, I like how you carefully avoided quoting the other, very important half of that. You know, where I said there were two ways of reading it, and if it's not this way, it's...

@Ninja_Kero quote:

If you read it instead as, if a builder builds, they can't fight on the builder for more exp, again, they may as well relax once the buildings are down. The only way to relax becomes being a builder again.

See again, the problems mentioned above, where you went back and forth arguing one or the other to cover the other.

You only get to pick one of these.

Now, note that this person brings up an important point related to it.

@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

So if I'm a builder and I want to play while a lot of builders happen to be on, then I have to hope that I can find a game where I can build? I'm not interested in the hero damage part of the game, so I have less choice in actually playing the game?

See that? Stuff like this is why this idea of your won't work. Well, this and a myriad of other reasons.


@Isukun quote:

You don't seem to understand how handicaps work.  Not surprising considering you haven't understood ANYTHING ELSE in this thread, either.  A multiplier is applied to weaker characters so that when they are compared to other characters, they are evaluated as if they have the same stats.  So if you have a character who does 1000 DPS and a character who does 500 DPS, if the 1000 DPS character does 20,000 damage in a wave, the 500 DPS character would only need to do 10,000 to be considered equivalent.  In practice, it takes the same amount of effort for the 500 DPS character to do 10,000 damage as it does for the 1000 DPS character to do 20,000, so the player with the handicap has no advantage over the player without.  Sorry, but that's pretty basic elementary school math.

Oh wow, that's actually worse! So no matter what, no matter how far you get, you're never actually ahead? You may never relax, and must do the exact same amount of work every map until level cap to get full exp? I assumed you'd not do something that horrible to people, but apparently I was wrong. Sheeeeesh.

Not only that, if it's a hard number handicap as you say, then the problem of builders building too far ahead in lane WOULD mean they quite literally steal potential exp from dps. They may be able to get in enough the x amount damage in to qualify for the exp if things die too quickly to towers.

Dps would need to actually RUN back and forth between every single wave to the next wave of monsters to hit them as much as possible. For a weaker dps, especially squire, to ensure they get some damage in, they have to get close and risk dying more often and getting extremely frustrated.

This also is a problem for squire tanks. No one will want to tank.

Meanwhile, builders can relax during waves if they want, or not. They have much more freedom, and there will be bickering over the role even more so than there is now, and people placing just to place things to do builder damage, ahead of one another to get builder damage done, further compounding the dps problem.

 

Here's some math for you. Bad idea + refusal to recognize and fix the major flaws = never getting in. 

As it is, your tons of [ 1 like from yourself ] demonstrates how popular the idea is.

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

So if I'm a builder and I want to play while a lot of builders happen to be on, then I have to hope that I can find a game where I can build? I'm not interested in the hero damage part of the game, so I have less choice in actually playing the game?

There's solo or playing with friends if you can't find randoms who will let you play your way.  If your interest is purely in the building portion of the game and you don't care about combat, why would you purposely look for scenarios where you're not even doing the one thing you want to do?

@Ninja_Kero quote:

XD Oh, I like how you carefully avoided quoting the other, very important half of that. You know, where I said there were two ways of reading it, and if it's not this way, it's...

What's to avoid?  Your other reading isn't a problem.  The builder that actually builds something is gaining XP based on actually participating in the game.  That's one of the many parts of this you don't seem to be getting.  Like your claims of people getting extra XP at the expense of others (they don't), builders stealing XP from DPS (they don't) or losing gold and loot (they don't), or one of  the multitude of other "problems" you've invented that don't exist here.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

Here's some math for you. Bad idea + refusal to recognize and fix the major flaws = never getting in. 

Here's some more for you.  No reading + no comprehension = no valid arguments.  I'm just finding it really hard to believe you're not just doing this on purpose to troll at this point.  You have yet to present a single valid argument, every one is a fabrication based on some glaring misconception.  I almost fell out of my chair laughing when you said "hard number handicap" and tried to tie it to what you quoted.  It's just astounding someone can be this obtuse.


I don't like my own posts.  You going through and liking every dissenting post, doesn't really say much, either, though.  The opinion of the ignorant is pretty worthless.

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@Isukun quote:


@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

So if I'm a builder and I want to play while a lot of builders happen to be on, then I have to hope that I can find a game where I can build? I'm not interested in the hero damage part of the game, so I have less choice in actually playing the game?

There's solo or playing with friends if you can't find randoms who will let you play your way.  If your interest is purely in the building portion of the game and you don't care about combat, why would you purposely look for scenarios where you're not even doing the one thing you want to do?

I enjoy playing with other people who aren't completely selfish, and the game isn't popular enough for the popular "play with friends" workaround that doesn't actually fix anything. Who said I'm purposely looking for scenarios where I don't have to do squat? You just made that up.


Currently, I join a game hoping its wave 1 and I can build something, and if I can't, then why should I get nothing? At that point I'm just sitting there to give everyone else extra loot chance, yet I'm getting nothing in return.


What if the matchmaking system put 1 builders and 3 hero dps in one game, then later the 3 dps leave and are replaced by 3 builders. With your system, the 3 builders that joined late would get nothing.

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Hmmm... Then your system punishes players for doing well, especially fighters.


You're the one giving the example of 1k dps players with a handicap needing to do say, 10k per match, 2k dps players doing 20k. That's a hard number handicap. If a player does 1k auto attacks in match one, even if they change all their gear, optimize it, they need to do another 1k the next match. And the next. The next, and the next. But this is stupid, because optimizing hurts your own chances. Along with the previously mentioned issues, if you do too much more damage, and enemies have hp that doesn't scale up, it leads to problems. Here, I'll SHOW you.


Monsters on Map A have 100k total health between them all on a set difficulty.

There are four players. Only one opts into building.

The builders defenses approximate 60% of the dps to the monsters. So we remove 60k enemy health from the monster health pool.

This leaves 40k total monster health for all fighters to get their quota from.

All three other players decide they want to dps on their fighters.

For simplicities sake, we'll say they all have the same dps quotas of 11k per player.

Assuming every player hits their cap, we leave a 9k buffer of monster hp.


Now... each player re gears, and tries the map again. Their dps jumps up to 15k quota requirement, because of leveling and optimization, better items etc. The builder doesn't optimize much from that wave, I'll be kind and say they do 5% better this round.


If only three players dps, and builder afks, doing only builder damage, and unequipping their pet or staying far from combat. 


Now the math. 100k health of monsters. 65% from builder leaves 35k monster health pool.

Of that 35k health pool, each fighter, with better gear, requires 15k damage done each. 35k - 45k leaves a 10k deficit of damage each fighter is unable to complete, taking from loot and exp.

Since you encourage the builders to also fight, and give them the same dps, 15% of the monster health pool is either lost completely, as builders don't use fighter exp up, but the dps badly needed it to hit their quotas to qualify for experience and loot.

So let's see what happens when all four do dps, as well as one building.

15% x 4 is 60% damage required. The buildings do 65% as well. Now we're 25k health in deficit, with each player not a builder well under where they need to be to receive good loot and exp.


Remember, this monster pool is important. A player can't kill already dead monsters. So if a builder kills more monsters closer to the spawner, or too quickly, dps simply can't hit a quota because they do not have enough to fight. This is especially nasty on larger maps where a dps simply cannot BE at every lane at once as they spawn, to whack them the required times necessary to hit quota.


This is how players 'steal' from one another. By doing well. Monsters have only so much health between them, and the better you do, the more others will suffer, including yourself if you're dps. A lower dps character will lower the overall strain on the monster health pool, allowing everyone to hit the handicap quota.

This system rewards people for not doing better, but rather encourages keeping worse gear on.


As a rule, dps will never be able to hold an entire map alone, without towers, otherwise we'd have an extremely easy game where towers are secondary. Corollary, builders building towers are always competitive or better than playing as a dps. Most maps should be something you can eventually solo, even if it is difficult to do so, it's possible. The same would not go for dps. That would define a dps as 'overpowered' rather than balanced, to solo each map towerless.

In this new setting you have defined, builders will have, likely as not, 100% guarantee of optimal loot and exp rates. Dps will most certainly be at a growing disadvantage, and importantly, I'll note that builder positions will be vied for, not in a friendly way, but because it's a coveted position where you are certain to get what you need as opposed to helping the team get through the map.

Players may very well choose to horde their greens and build all over the place without discretion, aiming at damage over working together. It's a selfish and dangerous road and think space to put players. They would also need to ensure they do damage, so things like ice towers and serenity will become unused. Tanking does no damage, so that too will have to go back burner. Walls do little to no damage as well.

But Kero, you might say, you just average overall fighter damage separately.

One should also note that Isu-Kun wanted it so that the less you contribute to a fight, i.e. a builder whose defenses do all of the work to the point that you barely hit anything, that you don't get loot. At all. Because you 'did nothing' and shouldn't be there in the first place.

Now... let's say that you average damages between players. This is also a problem though, so...

Here is more math!

The aforementioned teams builder did 65% of the monsters health pool. Now, because of the deficit, I'll be friendly and divide the damage of the four players by four between the remaining percent. 35% divided by 4 is 8.75% dps damage done by heroes. now... builder damage may or may not count here. It certainly doesn't give exp to him, and likely the other players will yell at him for trolling for deciding to dps under this new system.

Provided it does count, that's 35k monster health, again divided amongst 4.

8,750 damage done by each dps.

Provided it doesn't, it's still 35k divided amongst 3. This is if Isu-Kun allows it so any builder damage done by a dps goes to the other fighters for free. I sincerely doubt this, but still, it's 11,666.66~ etc per dps, and a portion of the extra was not their own efforts.

Even if it's based off of several teams having done x damages amongst themselves per stage, being balanced on each and every stage (a lot of work btw), there is no real averaging for it, not if you want to leave freedom for players to do as they wish on that stage, not without 'putting a gun to their head' as you claim this does not. Not only that, every time there's a new item rebalance, hero, or item or added that could affect the stage, you'd have to rebalance it with a new average of playtests considering it every. Single. Time. On every map.

What team are you averaging anyways? 3 dps one builder? 2 dps 2 builder? 4 dps but two build? All dps and all build? Which heroes and setups? The average would then reflect into the hard values being used to cast judgement on how much 'effort' based on the actions of a specific player party did, with certain items which some party members may or may not have, experience may or may not be had, etc. It locks you in. And breaking out of that lock? It hurts the values on literally everyone else in the party, or yourself, depending on what you do. Heck it encourages you to do the exact same thing each map just to match the dang value. How boring.  Do you try to be individual and try something new? What if you fall behind the play testers values? You're behind, and now you also get choked on gear and exp too. Friends snowball ahead or lag behind. How do you help a friend being choked by the system itself? I guess you could NOT try your best just so they can have time to beat the average play. Or work out ways round it.


No matter how you look at it, this system makes an issue out of builders roles, and players opting in or out of doing dps damages.


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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Currently, I join a game hoping its wave 1 and I can build something, and if I can't, then why should I get nothing? At that point I'm just sitting there to give everyone else extra loot chance, yet I'm getting nothing in return.


What if the matchmaking system put 1 builders and 3 hero dps in one game, then later the 3 dps leave and are replaced by 3 builders. With your system, the 3 builders that joined late would get nothing.

Actually, that's not even true, despite what Ninja_Kero thinks, you'd still be getting loot and gold.  If all you're doing is hanging around for the extra loot chance, you'd still be taking advantage of that.  You just wouldn't be getting XP for doing nothing.  Seems pretty fair to me that if you want to gain XP, you should be encouraged to actually play the game, like pretty much any other game that has XP.  If you jump into a game at random and see right off that you aren't going to get a chance to play, I don't see why you would want to hang around for the next 20 minutes doing nothing.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

Long, nonsensical post full of logical fallacies, bad math, fabrications, and misconceptions.

Wow, it's hard to even know where to begin with how incredibly moronic that post was.  You put a lot of effort into writing something of zero value.  At any rate, like I said before, it's like talking to a rock with you.  No amount of beating this dead horse is going to get you to comprehend, so it's pointless to even explain it again.  Every time I've tried to clarify with you, you STILL seem to have everything mixed up and wrong.  At some point, I just have to assume that it's not a problem on my end and it's really just your inability to comprehend simple concepts.  That's REAL stubbornness, this need you have to remain ignorant so you can keep fighting the good fight.  Unfortunately for you, it's pretty evident in all of your posts, you're fighting against something completely different from the idea proposed in this thread.  I'm not going to go through point by point and explain to you why you're wrong or how you're confused, you're going to have to figure that one out on your own.  When you've actually made the effort to read and comprehend what's been written in here, maybe I'll take you seriously.  Until then, though, you're the biggest joke in here and you're certainly not worth my time.

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This entire thread is just hilariously silly. The original idea could be an excellent option for a new game-mode or tweaked LFG mode with some changes made or specified further, but I don't think it would work well at all for the entire game, reasons for this have been mentioned relentlessly by others. 

Isukun, how come your primary argument for your idea is "U GUISE KAN'T REED! U R SO DUM" Rather than opening a proper dialogue about it?

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@Dresira quote:

Isukun, how come your primary argument for your idea is "U GUISE KAN'T REED! U R SO DUM" Rather than opening a proper dialogue about it?

He did reply reasonably enough when I expressed some concerns on page 3 or something.  I have to agree with his assessment of some of the people here; for instance in his last post Ninja_Kero seems to have picked up and idea that dps would have some kind of fixed damage quota and would be competing against defenses for meeting that quota.  He then latches on to that idea (which is completely false btw) and writes and entire long post about it.  Given that his whole contribution in this thread is a stream of similar misconceptions, I can't fault Isukun for responding the way he does.

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@Isukun quote:

If you jump into a game at random and see right off that you aren't going to get a chance to play, I don't see why you would want to hang around for the next 20 minutes doing nothing.

That's why it's great that loot isn't distributed by performance. Currently, you jump into a game knowing that you are getting something regardless. If I'm playing with a group of friends that just got the game and want to power level them while they get mad lootz because I don't need any, shouldn't I be able to do that?

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:
@Isukun quote:

If you jump into a game at random and see right off that you aren't going to get a chance to play, I don't see why you would want to hang around for the next 20 minutes doing nothing.

That's why it's great that loot isn't distributed by performance. Currently, you jump into a game knowing that you are getting something regardless. If I'm playing with a group of friends that just got the game and want to power level them while they get mad lootz because I don't need any, shouldn't I be able to do that?

You misunderstand.  Isukun is suggesting that loot is distributed between your characters by their relative performance.  You as a player are still getting the same amount of loot.  If you build a whole bunch of towers with an apprentice and then lay down a single explosive trap on a huntress, most of the loot is going to be fit for an apprentice even if you had the huntress out during the save (assuming you don't deal hero damage).

Incidentally, I'm not too fond of this idea because with a single player it doesn't allow getting 100% of the loot to a character that isn't the sole builder.  It'll make gearing up a new hero without friends that much more difficult.  And no, the current system is not perfect either - best would be if I could choose between the two.

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@tdb quote:


@Ghost [WoRM] quote:
@Isukun quote:

If you jump into a game at random and see right off that you aren't going to get a chance to play, I don't see why you would want to hang around for the next 20 minutes doing nothing.

That's why it's great that loot isn't distributed by performance. Currently, you jump into a game knowing that you are getting something regardless. If I'm playing with a group of friends that just got the game and want to power level them while they get mad lootz because I don't need any, shouldn't I be able to do that?

You misunderstand.  Isukun is suggesting that loot is distributed between your characters by their relative performance.  You as a player are still getting the same amount of loot.  If you build a whole bunch of towers with an apprentice and then lay down a single explosive trap on a huntress, most of the loot is going to be fit for an apprentice even if you had the huntress out during the save (assuming you don't deal hero damage).

Incidentally, I'm not too fond of this idea because with a single player it doesn't allow getting 100% of the loot to a character that isn't the sole builder.  It'll make gearing up a new hero without friends that much more difficult.  And no, the current system is not perfect either - best would be if I could choose between the two.

that is also only part of the problem, as after a lot of thought I figured out that isukun was also referring to the fact that the builder only gets exp for the build, if they are present during the wave. which is problematic if you need dps. not as much an issue in multiplayer, but annoying when in single player.

as such, this system would be an 'add-on' to the current system. potential flaws still exist for this system, but that is my understanding of the current problem, and the proposal to fix it.

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@Griede Starless quote:

that is also only part of the problem, as after a lot of thought I figured out that isukun was also referring to the fact that the builder only gets exp for the build, if they are present during the wave. which is problematic if you need dps. not as much an issue in multiplayer, but annoying when in single player.

as such, this system would be an 'add-on' to the current system. potential flaws still exist for this system, but that is my understanding of the current problem, and the proposal to fix it.

Why is that problematic in single player?  The only thing that contributes to your ability to deal out damage is gear, gear properties are random based on the stage you're playing, and the only class specific gear are weapons.  XP has nothing to do with that.  Worst case scenario would be using three characters in solo with two builders and one DPS.  If they all get 100% efficiency, any weapon drop would have a 33% chance of being from one of each of those classes.  


It's also possible you could try an alternative system that checks against each character's efficiency to determine possible double or even triple drops on weapon drops.  For instance, if you're using two characters in a multiplayer game, one for building and one for DPS.  Say your DPS is at 100% efficiency, but your builder is only 50%.  You get a random weapon drop during a wave, it would automatically drop a weapon for your DPS, but would have a 50% chance of dropping a weapon for your builder, too.  I'm not sure how exploitable this would be, though.  Obviously a 0% efficiency would mean no weapon drops with an exception for a player who is using only one character (weapons would have to go to the lone character).  Could be interesting, though, and would make sense with how the XP system works.

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Unless I missed something I don't see your system for players like myself who only want to build. If I join in wave 3 or 4 of any map chances are high that all the defense units are already used. What am I supposed to do in that case?

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@Ghost [WoRM] quote:

Unless I missed something I don't see your system for players like myself who only want to build. If I join in wave 3 or 4 of any map chances are high that all the defense units are already used. What am I supposed to do in that case?

Collect loot and gold for two waves, fight with your builder to get XP, or drop and try to get into a game that's not half over already.  As I've said before, what's the point of jumping into a game if you're not going to play?  Hell, if I joined a game and everybody told me to go stand in the corner and do nothing, I'd drop right away.

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@Isukun quote:As I've said before, what's the point of jumping into a game if you're not going to play?  Hell, if I joined a game and everybody told me to go stand in the corner and do nothing, I'd drop right away.

Are you kidding me with this? I join a game hoping its on round 1. I'm not expecting to get free ride, so I don't know where you're getting that from, and frankly I'm already tired of it. Sometimes you don't get so lucky. and you end up in a game that's finishing soon. Why should I have to leave a game or be punished because I was unlucky with the matchmaker, or the only current game is almost finished?

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How are you being punished?  You have the same opportunities as any other player.

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