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XP and loot should be distributed based on character performance


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One of the things that bugs me immensely looking at this game is how the XP and loot are doled out.  Basically, the vast majority of experience will be granted to your active characters during the combat phases.  There isn't a lot of opportunity to gain experience for building, but built defenses do far more to stop the enemy hordes than high level fighters.  And the game encourages players to have distinct builders and fighters by allowing players to swap out, but restricting defense stats based on what the builder has equipped.  So you can't build and then switch to a fighting loadout without sacrificing defense strength.  You're basically tied to having some characters equipped to build strong defenses and some equipped to be strong fighters.


This also presents a problem when it comes to leveling and gearing your characters.  In order to get gear and experience for your builders, you HAVE to bring them into the combat phase.  This means you either sacrifice their building ability and gear them for combat, or you make them essentially useless in combat and just get handed XP for showing up.  This also allows other people to power level characters by simply jumping into a game and AFK'ing.  As long as the defenses are strong enough, anybody in the combat phase can just drop their mice and controllers and get XP for nothing.  I could see this becoming a major problem once the game goes free to play since you will have players who start multiple accounts just to take advantage of this and level four characters at once while playing solo.  It's especially enticing given the limits on character slots the game has so people can get around having to use the cash shop to open new character slots and then level those characters by running multiple instances of the game on different accounts.


I think a better approach is to use a weighted system for distributing XP and determining loot drops in the game.  Players should not be able to drop into a game, AFK, and still get experience, but distributing experience among the active characters can be hard considering the imbalances between defense capabilities and offense.  Plus you don't want the opposite where four people jump into a game so one person can get 4x the experience for soloing the stage.  Basically, in each wave of each stage you track the efficiency of each character used.  Figuring the experience offered in a stage is easy since it's typically based on the enemies that spawn.  The efficiency of a character determines what percentage of that amount the characters gets and the value ranges from 25% to 125%.  25% would mean the character did nothing in that wave.  They had no damaging or healing defenses and did not attack any enemies.  Naturally, they would receive nothing.  Values can be padded with synergies, combos, and healing, which will bring the efficiency of a character up, potentially above 100%.  The base value, however, is determined by the damage done compared to the overall average.


The game already tracks damage done by towers and by players.  This would simply be tracking damage as done by particular towers and players and distributing experience based on how well the players work together.  For towers, the game figures out how many characters build towers and then determines 80% of the average damage per character.  That is the value that will grant 100% efficiency.  In addition, though, if there are more than four characters building in a wave, efficiency will be lowered by 10% per additional character for all players, up to a max penalty of 50%.  So if the group uses 6 characters, the max efficiency is now 80% for builders.  Some of that can be made back through bonus efficiency granted through support towers (not the boost, though, as damage can be determined for boost towers) or combinations, which will grant additional percentage points based on how much they accomplish in stage.  Maximum bonus efficiency is 20% for towers 5% for fighters.


For fighters, the system is a bit simpler.  Like with towers, the game will figure out 80% the average damage per player in that wave and that value will be the damage needed to gain 100% efficiency.  Since the game cannot have more than four players, there's no need for the throttling based on the number of characters used.  As a trade off, fighters have less opportunity to gain bonus points since it's easier to gain higher efficiencies.  Bonuses may be granted for damage dealt while enemies are stunned, healing, or for combos triggered by attacks.  An alternative efficiency method may be applied to tank classes that grants efficiency based on damage taken by enemy attacks rather than damage delivered.  This would not include damage accrued by falling off ledges or taking damage from environmental hazards.  Whichever percentage is higher for the character will determine their efficiency.


To further combat gaming the system, both defenses and players have to hit a certain damage threshold before they gain efficiency.  This would stop people from building defenses taking a few swings with their fighter and getting 100% efficiency for basically doing nothing.  This would be based on a value representative of average defensive vs offensive power based on an average game and the number of players.  The minimum threshold for calculating efficiency would be 10% of the average per player value.  So, if on average 90% of damage is done by towers and 10% done by DPS in  three player game, if a stage has a damage value of 3,000,000, a DPS player would need to do 10% of (10% of 3,000,000)/3 or 10,000 before the game would calculate their efficiency value.  This would be after applying the handicap as outlined below.


Much like XP, loot drops would be determined by the classes used by the player.  Loot drops at the same rate as in the current game, so no matter the performance of the player, loot drops will remain the same.  Weapon drops would be based on the efficiency of the characters used by the player, however, and there would be a chance to drop multiple weapons based on those values.  So if a player has two characters at 100% efficiency, a weapon drop would produce one weapon for each character.  If each were at 60%, there would be a 20% chance that two weapons would drop, otherwise, there would be an equal chance of dropping a weapon from either class.


There has been some concern about low level vs. high level characters in determining efficiency.  This can be resolved with a handicap system.  Handicaps will be determined by the players contributing in a stage.  For instance, if you have 3 players in the game and three characters in the combat phase, the game will take the average DPS of the character with the highest DPS and apply a multiplier to the other players' overall damage based on the difference between their DPS and the top DPS.  So if the top player's DPS is 5000 and another player only has 2500, when figuring the averages and the efficiency for a stage, the player with 2500 would have an effective damage value of 2x their actual value.  If the weaker player did 20,000 damage in a wave and the stronger player did 38,000, the weaker player would be counted as having done 40,000 when figuring the efficiency of both players.  


Advantages for such a system:

  • Eliminates people gaming the system by AFK'ing for free experience and reduces the need for multiple player accounts.
  • Levels the playing field for builders and fighters by distributing XP and loot to all active participants in the game.
  • Promotes team play by eliminating rewards for inactive players.
  • Offers incentive for players to coordinate building among multiple players to maximize individual player rewards.
  • Prevents high level players from carrying low level players since rewards are based on performance.
  • Could eliminate the need for the current deck system by implementing more "soft" restrictions on players and rewards for being more active.
  • Could also eliminate the need for level caps on stages.

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Part of the Dungeon Defenders experience that I have always enjoyed is the ability to play with someone of any level and be rewarded accordingly.  If I want to bring in some low level friends, why should they be penalized because of it?

I understand the purpose is to drive out AFK players and those who don't do anything to benefit the build, but there are other ways around that system.  Why not provide a bonus to active players instead of a penalty to everyone across the board.  Those who contribute a certain amount either through total green mana invested in towers throughout the round (building, upgrading, repairing) and dealing damage or taking damage during the wave.  There are a lot of factors that need to be considered rather than straight damage, especially since DPS is still very subpar to tower builds.

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They aren't being penalized because of it.  Why should they be rewarded based on YOUR ability?  If they are being penalized it's because they are effectively doing less than you are.  If you're in a game with lower level players and you're doing 60% of the work and they are collectively doing 40%, why should they get equal rewards when you're effectively carrying them through the stage?  Part of the point, as I mentioned, isn't just to stop people from AFK'ing, but to also prevent people from taking advantage of a system that rewards players equally whether they do anything or not.  


Also, this would make it possible to play at a higher level with lower level characters since XP increases as the levels get harder, but would still be granted based on a character's overall contribution to the stage.  So low level players would be getting XP equivalent to their ability, not just granted the full value based on the stage they happen to be playing in.  You get what you earn, rather than simply granting participation prizes for just showing up.

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So if I join a map with random people and they already have all the defense points spent I should be punished because I won't "Contribute" as much? No thank you.

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Honestly I don't see this as a good idea for a few reasons. Mainly though is that you'd never be-able to track player performance to the point where this could be implemented without being abused.

I'll give you a example. I have a tanky squire that can stop ogres or special enemies downside being I lack dmg. I'll go & stop said enemies so they don't destroy the def, letting the team win the match but I don't deal lots of dmg nor do I take lots of dmg so i'd get nothing.

Here would be another example. I have a Waller Squire, a Tower Huntress, & a tower monk in my deck. I go join a game to find out that another party member has a better tower monk but I have a better Tower Huntress & Squire Waller, we decide that I'd place Geysers & Boost auras while they would place LA's & Skyguards. They would do all the dmg & I would do almost none so I'd get nothing.

Lastly though, more total dmg doesn't mean a player did better then another for example I could place a couple skyguards in betsy's map & out dmg everybody else even if they deal with all lanes simply because the amount of air that comes.

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@topler quote:

Honestly I don't see this as a good idea for a few reasons. Mainly though is that you'd never be-able to track player performance to the point where this could be implemented without being abused.

I'll give you a example. I have a tanky squire that can stop ogres or special enemies downside being I lack dmg. I'll go & stop said enemies so they don't destroy the def, letting the team win the match but I don't deal lots of dmg nor do I take lots of dmg so i'd get nothing.

Here would be another example. I have a Waller Squire, a Tower Huntress, & a tower monk in my deck. I go join a game to find out that another party member has a better tower monk but I have a better Tower Huntress & Squire Waller, we decide that I'd place Geysers & Boost auras while they would place LA's & Skyguards. They would do all the dmg & I would do almost none so I'd get nothing.

Lastly though, more total dmg doesn't mean a player did better then another for example I could place a couple skyguards in betsy's map & out dmg everybody else even if they deal with all lanes simply because the amount of air that comes.

Or a tank squire needed for some teams to handle ogres on betsy. Holding up a shield and kiting doesn't do much damage either. Very helpful and game winning, but you may not even do any actual damage.

This all sounds very stressful on players, as opposed to fun.

It's not an 'incentive' to work together. It's more like everyone is taking a beating, and you get a slightly lesser beating for cooperating. Basing it on damage and combo's would be more likely to make people argue over who is placing what for damage, and people would work at doing most damage. Not completing the map together. Big difference. You would likely see people using several different hero's to make their own damaging combos in their own lanes to ensure they get something. And nothing prevents some guy with high stats from building just ahead of everyone to snag damages. Not like you can sell their stuff right on spawn.

There is no 'leveling the playing field' here. Exactly who is the enemy amongst the players. We all get loot only we see.

And what about people maxed and who don't care about gold or loot? This does nothing at all for them, and they have no reason at all to work with anyone inside this system that specifically needs everyone to want those two things. You're forgetting people play for different reasons. If they just need a wyvern token task done for example, nothing is stopping them from either killing indiscriminately or from going afk just like discouraged.

This system won't even work a little.

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Why in the world would anyone want to make a game more annoying and grindy. I can see why no one seems to be supporting this. You can make a game harder without making it the type of game no one wants to play. You can also provide actual incentives rather than limiting everyone and limiting people doing as you want slightly less. The most popular types of games give more of a sandbox, free roaming, experimentation feel rather than being forced into playing a certain way, grind it out a certain way, and be unable to help friends and play with them like you want. In this case, helping your weaker friends would prove mostly detrimental and be frustrating, because you're doing so much damage and trying not to, or have to play less or afk while they essentially play alone ahead of your power walls... That's a bad sign. You can't even show off your prowess to friends for fear of damaging their actual experience and loot drops O_o

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I can see why you'd suggest this, OP, but there's too many holes in it.  Mainly, how do you evaluate character performance?  Do tank squires get their just dues despite the majority of what they're doing being just getting hit (and if you evaluate based on damage taken, what stops builder squires or dps squires from abusing this to get additional performance 'points' on top of what they'd normally get)?  How do you properly evaluate Monks, who can do a variety of roles (healer, crowd control, tank, off-dps)?  But biggest of all, what of building? Currently, most of the time only one player builds for the whole map, two or three at most, and the remaining players are just there for support.  How you evaluate solo players, and what stops solo players from getting better loot drops than players in groups just because that since they're solo, they're guaranteed to get the most "character performance" possible?  What about lower level players; what stops them from being left in the dust when in groups with higher level players? (and don't tell me "only play with same-level players"--that's not a viable solution)


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@Anon quote:

So if I join a map with random people and they already have all the defense points spent I should be punished because I won't "Contribute" as much? No thank you.

So, you join a map and do nothing and you SHOULD get XP for that?  Also, the current system is that if you join a map and build all the defenses yourself, you still get nothing, so how is this worse?  Efficiency percentages do not add up to 100, so it's not splitting the experience, it's a modifier based on how much you actually contributed to the stage.  Your fighter would get efficiency based on their performance compared to the other fighters, not the builders, so this actually wouldn't hurt you at all in this situation and the other players who actually built defenses would get experience for the defenses they built.  You aren't getting penalized for anything.


@topler quote:

Honestly I don't see this as a good idea for a few reasons. Mainly though is that you'd never be-able to track player performance to the point where this could be implemented without being abused.

I'll give you a example. I have a tanky squire that can stop ogres or special enemies downside being I lack dmg. I'll go & stop said enemies so they don't destroy the def, letting the team win the match but I don't deal lots of dmg nor do I take lots of dmg so i'd get nothing.

Here would be another example. I have a Waller Squire, a Tower Huntress, & a tower monk in my deck. I go join a game to find out that another party member has a better tower monk but I have a better Tower Huntress & Squire Waller, we decide that I'd place Geysers & Boost auras while they would place LA's & Skyguards. They would do all the dmg & I would do almost none so I'd get nothing.

Lastly though, more total dmg doesn't mean a player did better then another for example I could place a couple skyguards in betsy's map & out dmg everybody else even if they deal with all lanes simply because the amount of air that comes.

Your first example is really the only one that presents a problem here, although that could easily be addressed by simply adding block damage as a special case for earning efficiency.  With the second example, the boost aura does have a damage rating.  A tower's damage is boosted, but only the base damage is attributed to the tower.  The boosted damage is attributed to the boost aura.  You also gain bonus efficiency for combos (up to 20%), so you would get experience.  Maybe not as much as the other player, but your overall contribution there is smaller.  These were both mentioned in the original post, though.  In the third example, are you trying to suggest the flying enemies don't count?  Are they not a threat that should be dealt with just like the enemies on the ground?


So the biggest issue I'm seeing from people is the way this system handles tanks.  I made an edit to the original post to address that issue.  Beyond that, though, I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions about how this works.  Builders do not take experience from fighters.  Experience is not distributed among the players, so you cannot get 4x the experience by soloing with other players who AFK.  There is a set maximum value for each wave and players get an amount based on how close they got to doing the average damage in their role.  So all characters used could conceivably get 100% efficiency and everybody would get equal XP.  Where it is different from the current system is that you are not rewarded for doing significantly less than the other players within your role.  All other arguments are entitlement-based, mostly outraged that high level characters wouldn't be able to simply carry low level players in stages they can't beat and the low level characters would get just as much XP as the high level players.  I'm sure if people actually thought about that, they'd see why that's NOT a fair approach.


Also, there was no mention of gold in here because it is technically a drop and would work just as it does, now.  Loot still drops as it does now, the only thing that would be effected is the type of loot that is dropped.  When a weapon drops, the type is randomly selected based on the characters the player is actively using, so they can still get gear for the characters who aren't actively fighting.  I never said loot would drop more or less based on efficiency, it would not.  This would actually decrease the amount of grinding needed in the game by offering potentially full XP for other types of participation beyond just combat and evenly distribute loot among your active characters.  You could conceivably level your builders and your fighter at the same time without having to switch back and forth.  In fact, XP would likely have to be scaled back to stop players from leveling too quickly.

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Here is a very simple example of how this works in practice.


You have a wave in a stage.  The enemies in the wave are worth a total of 2000xp.  You have four players in the game.  During the build phase, one player placed towers with two characters and one uses one.  The towers of the characters for the first player do 35,000 and 15,000 respectively and the third character does 26,000.  The two character who did more than 20,266.66 damage get 100% efficiency.  The character who did 15,000 would receive 62% efficiency.  these numbers could be further boosted by combos or support roles up to an additional 20%.  If we assume they are not, though, the first two characters receive the full 2000xp for that wave, while the third gets 1244.


During the combat phase, all four players fought.  One used a Squire to tank and out of a total of 3500 damage taken by the team, he took 3000.  He would be granted 100% efficiency and his damage would be ignored when figuring out the efficiency of the other players.  The other three did 9000, 7500, and 8000 respectively.  As a result, they all gain 100% efficiency and would be granted the full 2000xp.


The only time this really hurts players is when there are drastic differences between what the players are capable of or willing to do, which makes sense.  Rewards should be based on skill and what you do in the game, not on who you play with.

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@Isukun quote:


@Anon quote:

So if I join a map with random people and they already have all the defense points spent I should be punished because I won't "Contribute" as much? No thank you.

So, you join a map and do nothing and you SHOULD get XP for that?  Also, the current system is that if you join a map and build all the defenses yourself, you still get nothing, so how is this worse?  Efficiency percentages do not add up to 100, so it's not splitting the experience, it's a modifier based on how much you actually contributed to the stage.  Your fighter would get efficiency based on their performance compared to the other fighters, not the builders, so this actually wouldn't hurt you at all in this situation and the other players who actually built defenses would get experience for the defenses they built.  You aren't getting penalized for anything.

Honestly I can't see a reason to do this, it sounds like you got mad at players not doing much but you can kick people or play with friends. There are far too many situations where this would be detrimental to players because other players are stronger.

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@Anon quote:

Honestly I can't see a reason to do this, it sounds like you got mad at players not doing much but you can kick people or play with friends. There are far too many situations where this would be detrimental to players because other players are stronger.

You can't see or don't want to?  All you're arguing for is the ability for high level players to CARRY low level players through stages, which is an intrinsically unfair method of player progression.  At the same time, characters who legitimately contribute to the team's success are getting NOTHING from their efforts.  The only thing that determines player progression is the character's presence in certain phases of each stage.  There is almost no allotting for skill or participation, the vast majority of rewards are simply handed to the character just for being there.  


Also, as the rate of earning XP is based on participation in the stage, a low level character in a higher level stage with a higher level character will likely end up getting equivalent XP as they would from a lower level stage if they were soloing because their average damage would not change.  XP is based on enemy type and count and the efficiency based on damage dealt, so if a low level player goes into an easier stage that offers 5,000xp, gets 100% efficiency, how is that different from them dropping into a stage that offers 20,000xp and getting 25% efficiency?  The result is the same, they get 5,000xp.  If a high level player drops into an early stage they can beat blindfolded with a single tower, then yes, the low level players will get less XP because they aren't doing as much in the stage.  There really isn't much reason for a high level player to be taking on such a low level stage, though, apart from letting a friend coast.

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@Anon quote:


@Isukun quote:


@Anon quote:

So if I join a map with random people and they already have all the defense points spent I should be punished because I won't "Contribute" as much? No thank you.

So, you join a map and do nothing and you SHOULD get XP for that?  Also, the current system is that if you join a map and build all the defenses yourself, you still get nothing, so how is this worse?  Efficiency percentages do not add up to 100, so it's not splitting the experience, it's a modifier based on how much you actually contributed to the stage.  Your fighter would get efficiency based on their performance compared to the other fighters, not the builders, so this actually wouldn't hurt you at all in this situation and the other players who actually built defenses would get experience for the defenses they built.  You aren't getting penalized for anything.

Honestly I can't see a reason to do this, it sounds like you got mad at players not doing much but you can kick people or play with friends. There are far too many situations where this would be detrimental to players because other players are stronger.

Can't see a reason to do this. Also people 'take' loot and exp that you would otherwise get by them doing too much and throwing off the ratios. It would encourage lower players to ask higher levels to hold back or barely play at all or leave, among other issues brought up about well... people taking exp and loot. It's funny, this might get high levels kicked from matches or people who are doing too well. At which point it encourages people to solo more. 'omg i can't do damage your towers kill them too fast' etc. Way too many issues and sounds like a waste of dev time to keep up with and implement.

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@Ninja_Kero quote:

Can't see a reason to do this. Also people 'take' loot and exp that you would otherwise get by them doing too much and throwing off the ratios. It would encourage lower players to ask higher levels to hold back or barely play at all or leave, among other issues brought up about well... people taking exp and loot. It's funny, this might get high levels kicked from matches or people who are doing too well. At which point it encourages people to solo more. 'omg i can't do damage your towers kill them too fast' etc. Way too many issues and sounds like a waste of dev time to keep up with and implement.

There's a reason I didn't bother quoting you before.  I think you just like to argue, even if it means totally ignoring what other people say in order to blather on about non-issues.  Try reading through this thread again, you obviously missed a few things.  And honestly I don't care about high level players getting kicked from low level games.  The only reasons for them to be there are to carry low level players or troll.  There's no reason they should be able to do either.


And I already know with you it's not a case of can't see, but refuses to.  You love to put your blinders on while looking for things to nitpick, usually by inventing strawman arguments to repeat ad nauseam.

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@Isukun quote:

And I already know with you it's not a case of can't see, but refuses to.  You love to put your blinders on while looking for things to nitpick, usually by inventing strawman arguments to repeat ad nauseam.


Can we not make this personal? Just because I disagree doesn't mean you're right am I'm just too stupid to see or vice versa. If you post expect to have people criticize, you can't say only certain people can talk if they agree with you. I have stated my opinion on the matter of this idea. If you don't like the way someone plays don't play with them. If you want to join public games, you're going to have to accept people play different way and can't always be as good as others.

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@Isukun quote:


@Ninja_Kero quote:

Can't see a reason to do this. Also people 'take' loot and exp that you would otherwise get by them doing too much and throwing off the ratios. It would encourage lower players to ask higher levels to hold back or barely play at all or leave, among other issues brought up about well... people taking exp and loot. It's funny, this might get high levels kicked from matches or people who are doing too well. At which point it encourages people to solo more. 'omg i can't do damage your towers kill them too fast' etc. Way too many issues and sounds like a waste of dev time to keep up with and implement.

There's a reason I didn't bother quoting you before.  I think you just like to argue, even if it means totally ignoring what other people say in order to blather on about non-issues.  Try reading through this thread again, you obviously missed a few things.  And honestly I don't care about high level players getting kicked from low level games.  The only reasons for them to be there are to carry low level players or troll.  There's no reason they should be able to do either.


And I already know with you it's not a case of can't see, but refuses to.  You love to put your blinders on while looking for things to nitpick, usually by inventing strawman arguments to repeat ad nauseam.

Responds by strawman-ing and arguing, saying I do that, while saying little if anything contributory to discussion. Interesting.

Anywho, so at least you've shown that you're completely against anyone helping out people even a little weaker with them, and totally for a community where they feel the need to fearfully kick others to keep their exp and loot. It's more of a case of, if somebody is doing 'too' good, folks won't only get jealous, they'll have reasons to act on and grow said jealousy. That's not community healthy. Nor is it fun.


The ideal is high and low level can play together if they want to. What's the point of having tons of maps if you can never go back to grouping on them if you wish?

You can write it off as 'only for trollz' all you like, but I see it as locking people out of replayable content if they were in the mood to do it or to teach. Some people ARE nice you know. AND some people do struggle on lower maps and could use advice or a hand to get past the rough patches. You know what happens if your horrible idea is implemented? The person or persons being helped isn't actually helped. They will get neither loot nor exp, and still be stuck in the same place they were after wading through battle. If they do get any, it won't be near enough to level or gear past the rough patch.


Then, for them, they can just choose to over level one dps, by playing a lot with only that, grind out a ton and send the gear to their other heroes, THEN go play the map again to get past it. That doesn't sound even a little fun. Or they can play it over and over and OVER in frustration. With or without help it's still as bad because of the limit. They're not able to just hop smoothly over a bump with some help, it becomes a grinding mountain march side trip.

We want to avoid adding new kinds of grind. Shrink wrap. You invented shrink wrap.

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If you were to play with friends, wouldn't the people getting more xp and loot just snowball ahead of their friends.


I also agree with the reasons posted against this idea.


I can empathize with the OP and understand the benefits, but overall there are too many problems that would arise, at least in my opinion.

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Trendy has made xp gain the same for everyone to avoid people who would be penalized for not playing certain styles or to have arguments in a game where a person who doesn't build or who doesn't dps to be wanting to deal more damage and then generating some toxic situations based on the fact that some get more xp than others and everyone wants to get the same xp. 

Now for the xp on the builders and such i would still love to see what was previously showed as a idea.

The Hero Deck Leveling, basically you level your deck and all your heroes in your deck will have the deck's level (which later comes the idea of a prestige system for the deck, but let's continue).

To read more about the Hero Deck Leveling check it's blog post.


Also this person has a very good point:

If you were to play with friends, wouldn't the people getting more xp and loot just snowball ahead of their friends.

Even being friends or not, if you're in a team, getting ahead of the others would be kinda silly and break the team. There's nothing more annoying in MMORPGS than when you're ahead of your friends and he will feel like crap for pulling you back 'cause you're higher level than him and you either separate from him or keep getting less xp than you should.

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@Gutu quote:

Trendy has made xp gain the same for everyone to avoid people who would be penalized for not playing certain styles or to have arguments in a game where a person who doesn't build or who doesn't dps to be wanting to deal more damage and then generating some toxic situations based on the fact that some get more xp than others and everyone wants to get the same xp. 

Now for the xp on the builders and such i would still love to see what was previously showed as a idea.

The Hero Deck Leveling, basically you level your deck and all your heroes in your deck will have the deck's level (which later comes the idea of a prestige system for the deck, but let's continue).

To read more about the Hero Deck Leveling check it's blog post.


Also this person has a very good point:

If you were to play with friends, wouldn't the people getting more xp and loot just snowball ahead of their friends.

Even being friends or not, if you're in a team, getting ahead of the others would be kinda silly and break the team. There's nothing more annoying in MMORPGS than when you're ahead of your friends and he will feel like crap for pulling you back 'cause you're higher level than him and you either separate from him or keep getting less xp than you should.

Tbh I wasn't very into the Hero Deck Leveling idea, until I read it just now. It doesn't sound half bad actually. It's a 10 month old post though, is that right Oo? A few problems with it, like having to pretty much get your daily done from scratch might be an issue within 24 hours if you just prestiged. But that could be solved with various things. Like picking a reasonable accomplishment for your current hero deck as a hard task that doesn't require playing 12 hours straight XD. Or having a few more ways to get tokens, making them a little less all important to everything high level.


Hnn... The best part would be that you would feel like you're accomplishing something even on lesser maps when you build and win. Though gearing sounds like it would get weird. Maybe that's why it hasn't been done yet. Somebody forgot to ask : What about random items? Do they down level items, or what now? It would still mean each char is now wearing best in slot gear everywhere. Do they remove items entirely? O_O Or half remove them. Or...?


I mean gear wise, if you prestige, it might mean needing a set of clothes for every hero you plan to use for every few levels ^^;

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@Anon quote:


@Isukun quote:

And I already know with you it's not a case of can't see, but refuses to.  You love to put your blinders on while looking for things to nitpick, usually by inventing strawman arguments to repeat ad nauseam.


Can we not make this personal? Just because I disagree doesn't mean you're right am I'm just too stupid to see or vice versa. If you post expect to have people criticize, you can't say only certain people can talk if they agree with you. I have stated my opinion on the matter of this idea. If you don't like the way someone plays don't play with them. If you want to join public games, you're going to have to accept people play different way and can't always be as good as others.

That wasn't directed at you, and with Ninja_Kero it's always personal.  I get a little sick of seeing him continuing to respond with arguments that show an extreme ignorance of what was said.  His response after yours is more proof of that since he's still peddling problems that he's already mentioned more than once that also don't exist with the proposed system.  It confuses others who read his comments and think he knows what he's talking about.  Then I get further responses about these imagined problems that don't relate to the initial suggestion.


For instance, his claim that I'm against players helping out players even a little bit weaker than them.  In the example I posted, however, the four players were not fully equivalent in the amount they contributed, but were all still able to get 100% XP for most of their characters.  The system really only goes into play when there are more extreme disparities between the characters or when players coast.  And I've mentioned many times, my concern is that people get rewards equivalent to what they do in the game.  That's not really an abnormality.  Most RPGs work that way.  You get XP based on what you fight or kill, you don't get it by sitting in a corner of the map while other people kill things for you.


He also continues with his fabrication about not being able to get gear, when I stated explicitly the system does not change the rate at which gear drops, it just changes the distribution to reflect the characters the player is using.  Same with gold, which he brought up in his first post, but was never mentioned in the original idea because gold drops were not a part of the original idea, he just fabricated a problem that didn't exist so he could complain.  Then you see other people following up with questions about getting less gear and you can see how he has a negative effect on the conversation.  


I've also stated on multiple occasions, now, you do not get additional XP for playing with a single character, the system is a modifier that determines how much of the stage's XP is doled out based on the character's performance compared to other characters used in each wave.  So his whole scenario at the end where someone overgrinds a DPS and gets gear for the rest of their characters is pure fantasy and not even possible with this system.  His claims that it increases the grind are total BS because leveling multiple characters at a time and getting loot for those characters all at once reduces the need to grind and power level, but he continues to bring it up with an arrogant tone hoping others will think he's an authority when he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.


His third post did the same thing when he mentioned people with towers "stealing" experience from fighters.  Another thing that is impossible with this system since builders and fighters are rewarded separately.


Dirigible quote:

If you were to play with friends, wouldn't the people getting more xp and loot just snowball ahead of their friends.

Actually, no, they wouldn't.  The leveling system is based on an exponential algorithm for XP needed to reach the next level.  Low level characters outpace high level characters when it comes to character advancement and would eventually get into an area close enough that everybody would be getting equivalent XP.  Characters don't have to be exactly aligned, there is actually a pretty big buffer area that determines where a player still gets 100% efficiency.  For instance, if you have two characters playing through a stage and their damage totals 9,000, the number to get for full efficiency is 3,600.  That allows the other player to get 5,400 before the weaker player starts to see any cut to their XP.  So the weaker player only has to do 2/3 as much as the stronger player to earn the same XP.  This isn't unreasonable for two characters only a few levels apart.  The buffer for the disparity between characters actually rises with the number of low level characters.  With 3 or 4 characters where you have one high level character and multiple low level, you only have to do about 1/2 the damage of the high level player.  

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  • 5 weeks later...


mind you, im kinda 50/50 with this entire post, and even if someone is annoying, it does help to have a situation further explained so that others can understand it better.

@Isukun quote:


His third post did the same thing when he mentioned people with towers "stealing" experience from fighters.  Another thing that is impossible with this system since builders and fighters are rewarded separately.

actually, the issue with this is that their are still only so many mobs. and you can reach a point where the tower defences can kill the mobs before any dps's can get to them, with exception perhaps to the special enimies and bosses. an example is anything with the electrical aura build. on several maps you can stack the auras near the spawn and burn down just about everything that comes out. so with that Idea, how exactly would a dps get credit for the mobs that they cant kill because they are already gone?

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@Griede Starless quote:


mind you, im kinda 50/50 with this entire post, and even if someone is annoying, it does help to have a situation further explained so that others can understand it better.

@Isukun quote:


His third post did the same thing when he mentioned people with towers "stealing" experience from fighters.  Another thing that is impossible with this system since builders and fighters are rewarded separately.

actually, the issue with this is that their are still only so many mobs. and you can reach a point where the tower defences can kill the mobs before any dps's can get to them, with exception perhaps to the special enimies and bosses. an example is anything with the electrical aura build. on several maps you can stack the auras near the spawn and burn down just about everything that comes out. so with that Idea, how exactly would a dps get credit for the mobs that they cant kill because they are already gone?

Pretty much what I meant. It's not impossible, I'm not the only one that thought of dps having monsters being 'stolen' by builders, or builders building ahead either because they want to, or they want to ensure dps doesn't 'steal' their exp either. Your idea leads to a segregation mentality, because it's a segregating idea. Teams are not going to deal with teamwork in a setting like that. What if a dps wants to also build? Do they get double credit, more exp, less, or simply aren't allowed just so your idea can kinda sorta 'fit'. I can offhand think of dozens of ways this can be broken because, well, free will and varying personal opinions. It's just not gonna work.


Like, how would teams even ensure everyone gets exp? What if somebody is just too efficient at killing and take too much exp from other dps they're teamed with? Is it okay if the other dps tell them they're too good, please afk a bit or leave? Perhaps just only play a little bit? What if somebody thinks it's funny to run ahead of others when they're this strong instead, or if builders decide to build by spawn? What about the entire game being rebalanced on each map to have dps and builders both? Will people just not want to do teams or play at all and log off because they can't get together a high efficiency team to work with with x amount dps and x amount builders with x heroes, and exp rates are altered accordingly? The loot system bonus works because anyone can leave or join, usually. In your restricted area, if the wrong people join, the team, at least portions of it, suffer. They'll have to kick the newcomer if they don't have the needed dps of level and power, etc, especially if they need specifically a tank for ogres or something, since the games balanced on more dps now.. 

Heck, you said yourself it's based on how you compare to other people who are in either builder or dps as you. Implications. Better players are punished by weaker groups, and kicked by them, or arguments start. Also the only way to ensure even building without arguments or exp stolen, is NOT working together, but dividing up lanes to work separately on. The OPPOSITE of the teamwork and combo dynamic we're wanting.

AND as is, people logging in finding the map already built, they just have to tough it up and find another game or start another? Your grouping system is dividing up too much an already small base. It also is a complicated mess of rules and bureaucracy that causes more problems than it solves. ...Your idea is bad government XD. Nice try though? At least you want things to work.

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@Ninja_Kero quote:

Pretty much what I meant. It's not impossible, I'm not the only one that thought of dps having monsters being 'stolen' by builders, or builders building ahead either because they want to, or they want to ensure dps doesn't 'steal' their exp either. Your idea leads to a segregation mentality, because it's a segregating idea. Teams are not going to deal with teamwork in a setting like that. What if a dps wants to also build? Do they get double credit, more exp, less, or simply aren't allowed just so your idea can kinda sorta 'fit'. I can offhand think of dozens of ways this can be broken because, well, free will and varying personal opinions. It's just not gonna work.

Here we go again. Still not comprehending. Every player starts with the same base XP, whether they be builder or fighter. This value is based on the cumulative XP of all enemies who spawn in the stage, or for that round if you figure it by round.  They gain a percentage of this value based on their efficiency rating.  For fighters, this is based on the average damage done by active players in the round.  For defenses, this is based on the per-player average damage done by defenses.  It doesn't matter which does more overall damage, the system does not take that into account.  The two groups CAN NOT steal XP from one another, the system simply does not work that way.  The only scenario where the fighters lose XP is one where they do NOTHING, which quite honestly, they should be penalized if they aren't doing anything.  Why should the game reward you for sitting there twiddling your thumbs?


So really the only issue you have is the idea of lower level players getting less XP (which really makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, anyway, but I'll humor you on this).  If that's the issue that bugs you so much, it's pretty easy to simply apply a handicap system for players based on either their equipment power levels or DPS.  A character who does less damage would build up their efficiency faster to make up for the lower damage.


@Griede Starless quote:

actually, the issue with this is that their are still only so many mobs. and you can reach a point where the tower defences can kill the mobs before any dps's can get to them, with exception perhaps to the special enimies and bosses. an example is anything with the electrical aura build. on several maps you can stack the auras near the spawn and burn down just about everything that comes out. so with that Idea, how exactly would a dps get credit for the mobs that they cant kill because they are already gone?

If they encounter bosses and specials, they still have the potential to get full XP.  The only time they don't get XP is if the towers do all of the work, which honestly, how is the current system fair where builders put down the towers, do all the work, and get nothing, while fighters can sit there do nothing and get full XP?  There should be a certain percentage threshold so players can't just tag an enemy and then get full XP, but it would be pretty low.   


A simple example.  You have a wave that totals 1000XP.  Three players build towers, and then all four fight during the wave.  The cumulative HP of all monsters is 10,000.  If the defenses do 8,000 of that and the fighters do 2,000, then the efficiency of each of the builders will be based on how close they got to doing 2,666 damage with their particular towers and the efficiency of the fighters will be based on how close each got to doing 500 damage.  If the towers only did 4,000 damage and the fighters took care of the other 6,000, then the builders would be based on how close they were to 1,333 damage and the fighters how close they were to 1,500.  It doesn't matter what group does more damage, full efficiency will grant them the full 1000XP and there is a 20% buffer before you are penalized.  If you implement the handicap system mentioned above, level differences shouldn't matter, either, just who is more active in the stage.  And honestly, that is fair.  This isn't some facebook game where you should be able to just sit around and get rewards for nothing.

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@Isukun quotearrow-10x10.png:


@Ninja_Kero quote:

Pretty much what I meant. It's not impossible, I'm not the only one that thought of dps having monsters being 'stolen' by builders, or builders building ahead either because they want to, or they want to ensure dps doesn't 'steal' their exp either. Your idea leads to a segregation mentality, because it's a segregating idea. Teams are not going to deal with teamwork in a setting like that. What if a dps wants to also build? Do they get double credit, more exp, less, or simply aren't allowed just so your idea can kinda sorta 'fit'. I can offhand think of dozens of ways this can be broken because, well, free willarrow-10x10.png and varying personal opinions. It's just not gonna work.

Here we go again. Still not comprehending. Every player starts with the same base XP, whether they be builder or fighter. This value is based on the cumulative XP of all enemies who spawn in the stage, or for that round if you figure it by round.  They gain a percentage of this value based on their efficiency ratingarrow-10x10.png.  For fighters, this is based on the average damage done by active players in the round.  For defenses, this is based on the per-player average damage done by defenses.  It doesn't matter which does more overall damage, the system does not take that into account.  The two groups CAN NOT steal XP from one another, the system simply does not work that way.  The only scenario where the fighters lose XP is one where they do NOTHING, which quite honestly, they should be penalized if they aren't doing anything.  Why should the game reward you for sitting there twiddling your thumbs?


So really the only issue you have is the idea of lower level players getting less XP (which really makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, anyway, but I'll humor you on this).  If that's the issue that bugs you so much, it's pretty easy to simply applyarrow-10x10.png a handicap system for players based on either their equipment power levels or DPS.  A character who does less damage would build up their efficiency faster to make up for the lower damage.


@Griede Starless quote:

actually, the issue with this is that their are still only so many mobs. and you can reach a point where the tower defences can kill the mobs before any dps's can get to them, with exception perhaps to the special enimies and bosses. an example is anything with the electrical aura build. on several maps you can stack the auras near the spawn and burn down just about everything that comes out. so with that Idea, how exactly would a dps get creditarrow-10x10.png for the mobs that they cant kill because they are already gone?

If they encounter bosses and specials, they still have the potential to get full XP.  The only time they don't get XP is if the towers do all of the work, which honestly, how is the current system fair where builders put down the towers, do all the work, and get nothing, while fighters can sit there do nothing and get full XP?  There should be a certain percentage threshold so players can't just tag an enemy and then get full XP, but it would be pretty low.   


A simple example.  You have a wave that totals 1000XP.  Three players build towers, and then all four fight during the wave.  The cumulative HParrow-10x10.png of all monsters is 10,000.  If the defenses do 8,000 of that and the fighters do 2,000, then the efficiency of each of the builders will be based on how close they got to doing 2,666 damage with their particular towers and the efficiency of the fighters will be based on how close each got to doing 500 damage.  If the towers only did 4,000 damage and the fighters took care of the other 6,000, then the builders would be based on how close they were to 1,333 damage and the fighters how close they were to 1,500.  It doesn't matter what group does more damage, full efficiency will grant them the full 1000XP and there is a 20% buffer before you are penalized.  If you implement the handicap system mentioned above, level differences shouldn't matter, either, just who is more active in the stage.  And honestly, that is fair.  This isn't some facebook game where you should be able to just sit around and get rewards for nothing.

lets try this again. i didnt disagree with you. we were both pointing out that your system has a flaw, that can be exploited tremendiously by builders. your system alows for BONUSarrow-10x10.png exp yes? based on preformance, yes? again, how can anyone get bonusarrow-10x10.png exp, if the mobs are destroyed by defences? that is what you seem to be missing.

honestly, your whole argument of builders not getting anything in the current system is based off the idea that builders do all the work, yet most times afkers still get even creditarrow-10x10.png for doing nothing. this, in your perspective, seems unfair because in comparison the afkers (w/e they are) are getting credit for something they didnt do. however, if everyone gets equal credit, how is it that the builders get nothing? point being, no one is getting 'ahead', the only way you really get screwed is due to rng on gear.

and you cant say that builders dont get anything in the current set up, they simply dont get anything 'extra'.  so it seems to me that this is more a system to alow builders to get something special, and not really to help everyone else out.

the whole point of your system 'seems' to be to alow for a more 'fair' system, when in reality to looks to be more to be simply to alow anyone who understands the system to exploit it, which really is no different from what we already have,

also, i would add that since there is a very low level cap (regardless of the grind to get there) any system designed simply to promote a bonus of exp is rather pointless.

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@Griede Starless quote:

lets try this again. i didnt disagree with you. we were both pointing out that your system has a flaw, that can be exploited tremendiously by builders. your system alows for BONUSarrow-10x10.png exp yes? based on preformance, yes? again, how can anyone get bonusarrow-10x10.png exp, if the mobs are destroyed by defences? that is what you seem to be missing.

I'm not missing anything, here.  That's simply not how the system works.  The only bonus XP that can be gained is through non-combat actions, like healing.  I gave you a straight up example of how the system works above.  The fighters doing only 2,000 damage get the same experience as the fighters doing 6,000.  Their efficiency is based on their performance compared to other fighters, not defenses.  This really isn't that complicated.  You can't game the system by doing more damage.  There's no reward for that.  Once you hit 100%, that's it, it doesn't keep going up.


@Griede Starless quote:

honestly, your whole argument of builders not getting anything in the current system is based off the idea that builders do all the work, yet most times afkers still get even creditarrow-10x10.png for doing nothing. this, in your perspective, seems unfair because in comparison the afkers (w/e they are) are getting credit for something they didnt do. however, if everyone gets equal credit, how is it that the builders get nothing? point being, no one is getting 'ahead', the only way you really get screwed is due to rng on gear.

and you cant say that builders dont get anything in the current set up, they simply dont get anything 'extra'.  so it seems to me that this is more a system to alow builders to get something special, and not really to help everyone else out.

Ok, you don't seem to even understand how XP is currently granted to the players.  You don't get XP for killing mobs.  You get XP for being present in the combat phase.  All players in the combat phase get 100% XP.  Loot is based on what class you are using during the combat phase.  Nothing you do in the build phase nets you anything.  So if you build with your Squire, but use your Huntress during the combat phase, your Huntress gets all of the XP and your Squire gets 0, even if you AFK during combat.  The Squire isn't just not getting anything extra, they don't get anything AT ALL.  No XP and loot will all be based on the Huntress.  You can try this out for yourself.  Just go into the first stage, build defenses with one character that will wipe out all the mobs, then swap out to a different character during combat and AFK.  Your AFK character will get all the XP and all of the loot will be based on that character, while the character that actually killed all the enemies gets nothing.  THAT'S how the system currently works.

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