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Fozzie

Is team work getting worse?

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This splitting mana initially seemed an OK idea but there seem to be so many people out there who think they are God's gift to building and will not build alongside you or will keep saying mana needed here or sell defence here and it just descends into a bad atmosphere all around.

Just had some guy killing himself over and over again and not participating in the rounds at all, saying if there is no ogre you don't need me. Forget the fact of upgrade and repair.

Solo is such a far more harmonious game, even though we are penalised hugely for doing it.

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on the other side, there we're enought ppl at incursion who build eg. a 198 dmg - 1.24 spd lightning auras, 25% boosts all around, hit G and give a ***. And if you notice that this is maybe a way to weak to win incursion, you're the bad guy because you like to win and not giving a *** (and most time they leave when they see the wipe).



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I love playing with friends, sadly i can never have fun on public games there's always so much hate and fighting. 

Yesterday i was playing with piggyteehee on his stream and we were playing 3 players in maps that had ~3 lanes or that you could compile them into only 3 and we were doing each builds one lane, and it was pretty fun to change from the usually 1 person builds all.

The thing usually, hard content requires a solid build, and either there's one person with an idea and shows each how its done (some dislike being told what and how to do) or one has to build, because most of the times bringing 2 parts of different builds together doesn't work because you simply end up with gaps, since some focus more on one place because they think it's weaker.

So basically, if the people are not willingly to cooperate there's not gonna be a coop game. 

I personally don't mind the 1 person builds all as sometimes i feel lazy and just want to dps but i do my best (unless we're all just afking and stuff, then i just alt tab to the forums) 

i mean, my point is, we need to bring people together on what they want and what playstyle.

People who want to build should be matched with those who don't feel like building but will do dps, while the ones who want to co-op build should be able to meet each other 

Which is why i suggested something like a Server List, right now my steam friend's list is like a small server list, i see how's playing 90% of my friends play DD2, and i ask what they're doing and up to and we join each other we even get to meet their friends and then the friends of friends.
So playing private i've had quite some fun and made quite awesome friends who are amazing players.

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Not just in DD/2, but co-op public games in general are not the best place to enjoy your gaming experience (< speaks from personal long time experience). It is after all the internet, that won't ever change, and people do all kinds of weird nonsense stuff that sometimes go beyond normal common sense - griefing and such. But to be fair, DD2 is not the worst so far. At least your sometimes so-called "teammates" can't ruin your effort in some ways, like selling defences. I can't tell for sure if the DD2 "public" community is as toxic as in some other games, since I haven't played in public games like at all, but unless you end up with people without any common sense of cooperation there is at least some way how to achieve victory... or just move elsewhere. Best option after all - play with friends/people you know well.

And yes, I'm posting in DD2 forums. [[4027,hashtags]]

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@Gutu quote:*snip*

Which is why i suggested something like a Server List, right now my steam friend's list is like a small server list, i see how's playing 90% of my friends play DD2, and i ask what they're doing and up to and we join each other we even get to meet their friends and then the friends of friends.
So playing private i've had quite some fun and made quite awesome friends who are amazing players.

Agreed. 110%.

Also...90% of your friends list? I..I wanna be part of that 90%. Add me? http://steamcommunity.com/id/Darkside_sword264/

I really need more people to play dd2 with that are passionate about the game as much as I am

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I've had games that are hit or miss.  A lot of the time I get in a game with a pre-established builder and everything goes well.  Then recently I had a run on Betsy Hard where someone joined after we had discussed who would build, took some mana, and proceeded to build geyser traps all over without discussing the plan.  They refused to sell any defenses and argued about the build that had already proven itself on the prior run.

Incursion is not the place to experiment with builds, especially on the Betsy maps.

Anyone that wants to play though can feel free to add me.

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Also usually when playing DD2 i stay at my teamspeak and some other people join ( sometimes even a cute kitty [[67661,users]]  :3 :3 :3 ) 

If anyone got ts stop by.

Ts address: anfifo.ts3pro.com

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DD2 has by no means become a toxic community (yet), simply because we're still in pre-alpha and those who are playing have invested money to be part of the development process. When it goes F2P though... we're likely going to see some pretty low-down players intent on ruining the fun of others.

Bottom line is that by the time the game here goes F2P, we will want to have mechanics in place that makes it enjoyable to co-op build, or we're going to lose a huge portion of the playerbase due to trolls driving them away.

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To answer the title of the thread: Teamwork would have to have started at some level to have gone down. There has really never been teamwork, nor a reason to need to work as a team.

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Incredibly Situational, this situation depends if you have decent players or useless players.

Hopefully once the social score gets implemented we can get matchmaking with people with roughly the same social score.................

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@Syclic quote:

To answer the title of the thread: Teamwork would have to have started at some level to have gone down. There has really never been teamwork, nor a reason to need to work as a team.

the only map i've seen that requires team work is the first map hardmode without playing as huntress, but then again it's only because the difficulty is so high it's almost impossible to solo (without huntress)

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@Gutu quote:


@Syclic quote:

To answer the title of the thread: Teamwork would have to have started at some level to have gone down. There has really never been teamwork, nor a reason to need to work as a team.

the only map i've seen that requires team work is the first map hardmode without playing as huntress, but then again it's only because the difficulty is so high it's almost impossible to solo (without huntress)

everything is possible to solo without huntress. just use monk and squire =)

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@Cdr.Keen quote:

everything is possible to solo without huntress. just use monk and squire =)

Video me, any fresh characters you want (besides huntress)  doing the first level hardmode solo (Lvl fresh, if you lose character deleted) you can use monk apprentice squire on your deck, idc as long as you win it with fresh characters.

I think with squire it *may* be possible but it's still nearly-impossible to do it, anyway have fun with it, it's the only challenging thing in the game right now.

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@Gutu quote:

Video me, any fresh characters you want (besides huntress)  doing the first level hardmode solo (Lvl fresh, if you lose character deleted) you can use monk apprentice squire on your deck, idc as long as you win it with fresh characters.

I think with squire it *may* be possible but it's still nearly-impossible to do it, anyway have fun with it, it's the only challenging thing in the game right now.

Someone hasn't been watching squire week of the Caster's Games. It's more than possible with all 4, if not extremely hard on monk.

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@Syclic quote:

Someone hasn't been watching squire week of the Caster's Games. It's more than possible with all 4, if not extremely hard on monk.

solo, hard mode and fresh character? i would love to see that, can i have a link?

I've been keeping an eye out on the scoreboard and i've seen none played hard mode.

edit: interesting, will be looking forward, never played squire but i was told it was as hard as apprentice, i'll look forwards for apprentice and monk run syclic.

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What I did in DD1 was start a private game, build everything, then change it to a public game so people could join. 

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Would removing DU make teamwork easier?

At least trolls will build what they want, but you can still somehow finish a build, maybe a few upgrade lower than what you could get... but at least it would still allow you to finish a map?

Some lesser geared player maybe able to test out their strength by building stuff closer to spawn and test their own strength, without compromising too much on the main build.

I think that DU, not a bad design in itself, but it promotes a perfect strategy that uses a refined amount of structures. On most map, even with the best items (without exploiting the broken LSA, or geyser combo), a build would use up more than half the DU. In a co-op 2+ builders scenario, a slight miscalculation, misplace, or whatever, the DU can dry up pretty quickly. With the DU used up, and the defense still leaky, who is going to sell some defense to patch up holes? This is the part where the co-op get tricky.

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@SorakaPlz quote:

Would removing DU make teamwork easier?

At least trolls will build what they want, but you can still somehow finish a build, maybe a few upgrade lower than what you could get... but at least it would still allow you to finish a map?

Some lesser geared player maybe able to test out their strength by building stuff closer to spawn and test their own strength, without compromising too much on the main build.

I think that DU, not a bad design in itself, but it promotes a perfect strategy that uses a refined amount of structures. On most map, even with the best items (without exploiting the broken LSA, or geyser combo), a build would use up more than half the DU. In a co-op 2+ builders scenario, a slight miscalculation, misplace, or whatever, the DU can dry up pretty quickly. With the DU used up, and the defense still leaky, who is going to sell some defense to patch up holes? This is the part where the co-op get tricky.

so basically make the game so easy that a un cooperative team is able to complete? 

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[[43252,users]] is right there. Dumbing the game down to make it that teamwork doesn't matter is, in my opinion, really horrible design. We WANT Teamwork. It makes you feel good when you work together to achieve something great.

My general advice for people is if you cant work with other players then stop playing public games. If you have the will to want to work with people to achieve a goal then queue on up and we can make a friendly community for everyone. We have yet to implement some sort of policing system for those out there that just want to ruin peoples fun so its a little on edge right now but if you really really hate that then I would advice seeking out people (Maybe ones that frequent this here forum perhaps) and avoiding public games until such a system is introduced.

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I think the problem is that Trendy is restricting the puzzle pieces the wrong way. Right now we're restricted in that we can only bring 3 puzzle pieces (heroes) to the table, but it's not that hard to complete the puzzle with only 3 pieces by yourself. So here we have 4 people, each coming together with their own 3-piece puzzle solutions, and the team decides which completed 3-piece puzzle is used ("who wants to build?"). If we try and use half my puzzle solution and half someone elses, the majority of the time they don't mesh well and you feel like you're competing with each other.

My ideal co-op experience is not in bringing a completed 3-piece puzzle, but rather allow me one piece, and let me choose what that piece is once I'm on a map with a team (this means removing the hero deck, allowing players to swap between all heroes freely, but only allowing one hero per player to build in a 4-player game). The other 3 players also get a piece, and they can choose what that piece is as well. What we'd end up with is a collaborative effort where people say "I have XYZ puzzle pieces" and we get to work together to find a build that suits the map based on what we have. One piece is contributed by each player, and that would make a really neat co-op experience.

With my ideal co-op experience, the more heroes I have, the more diverse teammate I am. Solo players can bring 4 heroes to the table, since that's their cup of tea. But if I am paired up with a group of people, I don't want to carry or be carried; I want to contribute (and I want others to contribute), and how the hero deck is currently implemented does not foster that kind of atmosphere. I want to bring all my puzzle pieces to a game, pick the one that works the best with the team. I don't want to bring my own 3-piece puzzle solution to the game and compete with the other 3-piece puzzle solutions each other player has.

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hmmmmm, squire can solo hard mode just like the huntress. monk relies on turtle and to not die, ever. even then it's difficult without boost aura straight away, so simply winning as level 1 fresh monk (and only monk used) on gates of dragon fall is pretty much impossible, regardless how great you play. especially when the odd number is physical and two lanes are magical.

also to that person above me somewhere saying that w/o the geyser lightning combo requires a lot of DU to complete incursions is wrong so I just want to point that out there.

Life Root 810 DU remaining (w/o geyser/lightning auras) solo
Ramparts is 960 DU remaining (w/o geyser/lightning auras) solo

two examples right there, both scenarios only required 1 boost aura and some squire defenses.

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@gigazelle quote:

I think the problem is that Trendy is restricting the puzzle pieces the wrong way. Right now we're restricted in that we can only bring 3 puzzle pieces (heroes) to the table, but it's not that hard to complete the puzzle with only 3 pieces by yourself. So here we have 4 people, each coming together with their own 3-piece puzzle solutions, and the team decides which completed 3-piece puzzle is used ("who wants to build?"). If we try and use half my puzzle solution and half someone elses, the majority of the time they don't mesh well and you feel like you're competing with each other.

My ideal co-op experience is not in bringing a completed 3-piece puzzle, but rather allow me one piece, and let me choose what that piece is once I'm on a map with a team (this means removing the hero deck, allowing players to swap between all heroes freely, but only allowing one hero per player to build in a 4-player game). The other 3 players also get a piece, and they can choose what that piece is as well. What we'd end up with is a collaborative effort where people say "I have XYZ puzzle pieces" and we get to work together to find a build that suits the map based on what we have. One piece is contributed by each player, and that would make a really neat co-op experience.

With my ideal co-op experience, the more heroes I have, the more diverse teammate I am. Solo players can bring 4 heroes to the table, since that's their cup of tea. But if I am paired up with a group of people, I don't want to carry or be carried; I want to contribute (and I want others to contribute), and how the hero deck is currently implemented does not foster that kind of atmosphere. I want to bring all my puzzle pieces to a game, pick the one that works the best with the team. I don't want to bring my own 3-piece puzzle solution to the game and compete with the other 3-piece puzzle solutions each other player has.

This also weed out freeloaders, or just get players to push their limits.

I like this idea.

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I don't mind playing and someone else wanting to build.  Until the legacy item wipe happens, a LOT of the people who "demand" to build have stats that I CAN'T come close to having.  I just dump my mana on them, place my geysers if they let me, and spam concussive shot whenever there is a pack coming down the lane.  And then switch to my face tanking Squire for wave 4 of hard Betsy and contribute for the fraction of a second that it takes for the OP as hell LSA to chunk the Ogre down to a pile of ash.

Sometimes I get into a group with 3 people who don't build, so were stuck with my crap LA and Skyguard, but we still get it done.  I know good builds, and even with sub-par gear, I can get it done.

Sometimes I get REALLY lucky and have 1 other person who has really good LA's, or really good Ballista/Cannons, so I alter my build to use them for damage, and I just focus on building the mob CC.  These are the most fun games to me.  While I CAN do it solo, I prefer to focus on my strong point, which is being able to reliably CC with myself (Geyser/LA and Squire face tank).  When Apprentice sphere's get updated, I'll probably swap out my Squire for my CC Apprentice for groups where we don't need my Squire.

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@Drogra quote:

I don't mind playing and someone else wanting to build.  Until the legacy item wipe happens, a LOT of the people who "demand" to build have stats that I CAN'T come close to having.  I just dump my mana on them, place my geysers if they let me, and spam concussive shot whenever there is a pack coming down the lane.  And then switch to my face tanking Squire for wave 4 of hard Betsy and contribute for the fraction of a second that it takes for the OP as hell LSA to chunk the Ogre down to a pile of ash.

Sometimes I get into a group with 3 people who don't build, so were stuck with my crap LA and Skyguard, but we still get it done.  I know good builds, and even with sub-par gear, I can get it done.

Sometimes I get REALLY lucky and have 1 other person who has really good LA's, or really good Ballista/Cannons, so I alter my build to use them for damage, and I just focus on building the mob CC.  These are the most fun games to me.  While I CAN do it solo, I prefer to focus on my strong point, which is being able to reliably CC with myself (Geyser/LA and Squire face tank).  When Apprentice sphere's get updated, I'll probably swap out my Squire for my CC Apprentice for groups where we don't need my Squire.

I agree.  I could hit 25 after the Betsy patch and could solo everything up to Betsy with the gear that I had.  The only thing I had troubles with were the double Ogre spawn.  After I got LSAs, even that isn't a challenge anymore.

As far as teamwork goes.  Until they adjust the matchmaking system I doubt teamwork will improve.  I still play solo most of the time because I can eliminate failures.  When I group with others there's always one or two who ignore the requests that I make in order for my build to work properly or the double ogre spawn leads to someone dying and the ogre getting through.

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