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mktsang

Future of DD2 and the removal of Defense Speed

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Don't agree with everything, but definitely some valid points. I have to concur with much of the following ...

@Dabmaster quote:

Previously switching out for a hero DPS solved the shortcommings of your towers. However, hero DPS in DD2 is pointless. It's not worth wasting the time attempting to gear one, it's inefficient. It wastes a hero deck slot, and even with the top gear in the game, you're not going to burn a 800k hp ogre. 


Previously every single character had MULTIPLE build paths. For someone that enjoys solo play, and even for multiplayer this was phenomenal. It allowed you to specialize your towers, and then to remove yourself to bring in a dps hero at a 20% tower dps deficit of not having your builders physically in the game. It gave a reason to play the game! No matter how many times I finished gearing a character, I always had another one to level and gear for a different advantageous tactic. When your harpoons finally reached that .2 cast rate, you FELT like a god. You felt that all of the hard work all of the time, effort, and struggles clearing the much more significantly challenging map builds that DD1 had WORTH IT! Yet, you would STILL fail. You could still be easily over ran. Annihilated even. You jumped for joy when that 4 tower stat chest piece dropped. Sure, it wasn't perfect. The game may have been slightly broken, but it was truly fun. You felt joy. You felt a desire to farm that stupidly hard map even though you knew you would fail on round 8. Passing gear checks actually meant something!
  DD2 doesn't give me a single one of those feelings with it's mechanics.


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[[71089,users]]

I feel much the same as you do. There was a lot of great and ridiculous content in DD1 which made it an amazing, fun, and successful game, that I think will be thrown away in DD2. Honestly, I was hoping DD2 would be an improvement on DD1 (ie. fix the RNG and ROG, fix the mob spawning rate and quantity allowed on the map, update the graphics). While DD2 is still in its very early stages, the direction the game is going is very disappointing and disheartening. Surely there is more than a handful of us who feel this way and hopefully the devs start seeing that.

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@Draco18s quote:
@Dabmaster quote:

     The removal of defense speed is a slap in the face for anyone looking to relive the glory days or of dungeon defenders, you've already limited tower range, at this point you should go ahead and change the name of the game. This is not a sequel to the game that I logged THOUSANDS of hours into. DD1 was popular because of its progression.

  Previously every single character had MULTIPLE build paths.

We are quickly moving towards a "build one way, or no way." mentality. Heck were already there!

I disagree on just about every point you made, but I'll highlight this part:

DD1 already had a "build one way or no way" mentality with a single progression path: tower builders each with a single focus + one DPS hero (Jester, IIRC, although there were other choices, but that one was very strong).  So I'm not sure why you're claiming otherwise.

Two, removing a broken stat is not a slap in the face.  Welcome to pre-alpha where changes to the balance (and everything else) are to be expected.  Tower Speed was broken in DD1, per the 0.2 attack rate harpoons attacking so quickly that their projectiles clipped through each other.  Or summoner archers having to repeatedly get fixed so that their animation time would scale properly.

Trendy has recognized that the animations are already hitting the limit on how fast they can play with the amount of tower speed stats already available to players which means that its not future proofed.  They won't be able to raise the level cap and add better items, because we're already breached the hypothetical "hard cap" on how fast towers can shoot.  There is no other solution but to remove that stat from items and have it scale solely based on level where it can be controlled without breaking.  A slap in the face would be leaving it in due to legacy, e.g. "Its always been like that, so it's going to stay like that."

   That's why I love opinions! I won't deny that I have zero knowledge on coding animation breakpoints, and of course having ludicrous attack speeds will cause all kinds of issues, I never said they were not broken, I said they were fun. It's just my opinion, but ill take fun any day. However when it comes to the build or no way mentality I just need some clarification. You're saying that the fact that I could build multiple characters down multiple paths for different tactics depending on which level I'm on, is a "build one way or no way" simply because the standard of using all the mechanics available made it "one path"? I mean sure, the jester was amazing for it's ability to use all weapons, thats the only reason it was the goto choice. End game, the best choice was hero boost DPS monk. But saying that the build paths are limited just can't be so in comparison to DD2
    If I put you in a kitchen and told you that their is a fridge FULL of any food you can think of. Then told you to use and specialize any ingredients as you please to the best of your abilities for the best experiences possible. You would turn to me and say... "No way, that's a limited path. In stead, I want to choose a limited 3 ingredients from that fridge. I see no reason have a choice between all of them, and specializing them is utterly pointless as it will ruin the balance of the dish.
   Saying that we have even a fraction of the build freedom we did even in pre expansion DD1 seems like a huge long shot. I'm aware that this is pre alpha. They will make changes. Hell I'm personally hoping for a full character item wipe. I know that tons of features have yet to come. I know they need to make balance tweaks. But were moving past tweaking now. At this point would it really be to much to say that the mechanics are being completely rebuilt? The only thing that seems to be truly the same, is that you build towers on a map with the same basic character models as the last game.
   My main point of my rant wasn't that the mechanics should stay because they're broken it's that Trendy needs to look at a middle focus between the new in the old. Building this from scratch, changing everything about the game minus the aesthetics does not equate to a sequel of an amazing game. If they don't go down a path that leaves their player base feeling that this is a proper sequel it's simply my opinion of a bad follow up to an otherwise amazing creation.
   I'm not a game developer. I don't market for trendy. I don't help maintain their development or pretend to be a know it all of game mechanics. I just know what i found entertaining, and what I found fun. I have no problem saying without a doubt in my mind, that there are ZERO good ARPG loot fests currently available. The closest to stomach able at the moment are POE, and even then, no thank you. They have a niche they can grab onto at the forefront of their genre. I don't want this to end up a game that doesn't remind us of it's predecessor, and that is the only reason I joined the forums to voice my opinion on this single matter. I can tell that you're very vocal on the forums by your large post count so I would like to ask you, regardless of my opinion on the matter. Do you feel that Trendy is paying proper homage to what DD1 represented in its field?
   That fast paced feeling of DD1 will quickly disappear with limiting to attack speed, and if they truly are at the "limit" of attack speed running about what .3 is the current highest lightning aura speed .4 or so on cannon ball towers. Then shouldn't we servilely lower animation speeds at this point in the game. We're level capped at 25 at the moment. If the limitations have already been met, isn't that an issue of all the new stat giving systems like the spheres? Reaching 1100 TDS wasn't somthing that happened in DD1 until much much later in the game. Wouldn't it be easier to say the flaw is with how large the starting numbers are at such a low level that's limiting the ability to move forward with TDS as a main stat? At 25 in DD1 you were no where NEAR a .4 attack speed on ANY tower. in fact i think my apprentice fireball towers at that point had just reached 1.2 seconds. But it was still balanced, the first boss kicked my behind the first 3 times i fought him.
  Farming TDP TDC TDCH to get that largest number possible for direct damage doesn't seem any better of a route than what we currently have. I mean and to pray we are able to handle a 1400 wave relying on the already slow .5 second re targeting to wave clear in time? Wont this even further push us into the only dps towers being AOE such as fire ball or uber cannonball simply to make sure we have enough splash dps to not be over ran? And if that is the case, doesn't that once more limit our build paths? Disagreement is fine, and I completely respect you're opinion. I just wish for you to see my narrow point of view on this matter, and maybe get a bit more information on why you feel everything I wrote was irrelevant to the current state of the game. I would love to hear somthing that would make me feel that this is truly a balancing technique and not a random guess at what to do to try and make the game "less broken" and "more balanced".
  

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@Dabmaster quote:

Do you feel that Trendy is paying proper homage to what DD1 represented in its field?   

Not at all. Sometimes I wish I could reach through the internet and grab the people at Trendy responsible for balance, shaking their shoulders saying, "why won't you listen to me?! I have the answers, I know why the game is not fun, please just let me help you!!". I don't think they understand the impact their roles have; in fact I'd argue that they single-handedly have THE most important role in the success of the game. If game balance fails, the entire game fails. End of story.

Between all Dungeon Defenders games, I've clocked well over 3000 hours (some are not counted due to DD2 before it was on Steam as well as DDE). I know what made DD1 fun, I know why DDE failed, and I know what we can change to make DD2 an enjoyable experience. The interesting part is that the majority of my play time has not been just to play the game; it has been analyzing every single mechanic and thinking, "Is this fun? Why is this fun? Why isn't it?". Spending countless evenings doing this has allowed me to not only know when a particular experience in Dungeon Defenders is fun, but also allows me to articulate those feelings clearly and concisely. You could compare this to the fact that anyone can tell if a cake tastes bad/good, but only a few select people (such as professional taste testers) can articulate exactly what's wrong with the cake and tell you the correct ingredients/steps to make it taste better.

So, you want to know what's wrong with each of these Dungeon Defenders cakes? 

  • For DD1, you are absolutely correct that seeing significant defense progression is a large reason of what made DD1 enjoyable. However, that came at the cost of defense balance being completely tossed out the window. When was the last time you saw a slice n' dice in a nightmare build? When was the last time you *didn't* see a buff beam in a nightmare build? Can you farm for coal without a summoner (due to the additional minion units)? I think for DD1 we're well past the point of no return in terms of defense balance, so future updates will likely be in terms of new content and quality-of-life improvements.
  • DDE failed because 1) it was released too soon (forgive the cake pun but it was not baked long enough), and 2) they COMPLETELY butchered stat balance. Players hit level 60, saw there was no end game, complained, the devs released overly progressive gear without raising the level cap, broke defense balance even more, players left. Splendid gear ranges from cumulative stats under 1000 to stats that can easily hit 10K+. I'd submit that I wanted to see this game succeed more than anyone in the community, as I have Steam Workshop cosmetics accepted in-game. I'm actually still quite bitter about how DDE turned out to be honest. They had an AMAZING opportunity to improve upon DD1 and actually balance it right this time, but they ended up doing a worse job. I invested my entire being into that game both before and after release, and watching the game turn out how it did was soul-crushing.
  • DD2 in terms of balance is heading in the same direction DDE went, albeit on a much smaller scale and I can tell they're being extremely cautious about it. I can tell they're being cautious because max item power levels have for the most part not been touched since gear was introduced. However these critical hit stats aren't going to do anything to improve balance; it's just another broken stat with a different label slapped onto it. I've started more threads than I care to count on various components that are not enjoyable and even included solutions to said problems. I've established relationships with various individuals at Trendy and have reached out to them, providing candid feedback on aspects that are not balanced and how they can be fixed. Maybe I'm just not being patient and they're actually listening/planning on various suggested components, but what troubles me is that I also thought that exact same thing with DDE (and we all know how that turned out). I don't want to get burned like that again.

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@gigazelle quote:

Not at all. Sometimes I wish I could reach through the internet and grab the people at Trendy responsible for balance, shaking their shoulders saying, "why won't you listen to me?! I have the answers, I know why the game is not fun, please just let me help you!!". I don't think they understand the impact their roles have; in fact I'd argue that they single-handedly have THE most important role in the success of the game. If game balance fails, the entire game fails. End of story.

Haddad made it pretty clear in Devstream 22 that the development teams are not concerned at all with balance and are pushing it back until they can do it all at once. They would rather make their excuses instead of tweak some numbers to the correct ballpark. If they do the "math" for crit chance and damage the same way they did it for the Ubers the game will just be in pieces on the floor until the next "Foundation" patch comes out so they can't put out excuses for balance anymore.

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@gigazelle quote:Not at all. Sometimes I wish I could reach through the internet and grab the people at Trendy responsible for balance, shaking their shoulders saying, "why won't you listen to me?! I have the answers, I know why the game is not fun, please just let me help you!!". I don't think they understand the impact their roles have; in fact I'd argue that they single-handedly have THE most important role in the success of the game. If game balance fails, the entire game fails. End of story.

You and me, both.

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@gigazelle quote:


@Dabmaster quote:

Do you feel that Trendy is paying proper homage to what DD1 represented in its field?   

Not at all. Sometimes I wish I could reach through the internet and grab the people at Trendy responsible for balance, shaking their shoulders saying, "why won't you listen to me?! I have the answers, I know why the game is not fun, please just let me help you!!". I don't think they understand the impact their roles have; in fact I'd argue that they single-handedly have THE most important role in the success of the game. If game balance fails, the entire game fails. End of story.

Between all Dungeon Defenders games, I've clocked well over 3000 hours (some are not counted due to DD2 before it was on Steam as well as DDE). I know what made DD1 fun, I know why DDE failed, and I know what we can change to make DD2 an enjoyable experience. The interesting part is that the majority of my play time has not been just to play the game; it has been analyzing every single mechanic and thinking, "Is this fun? Why is this fun? Why isn't it?". Spending countless evenings doing this has allowed me to not only know when a particular experience in Dungeon Defenders is fun, but also allows me to articulate those feelings clearly and concisely. You could compare this to the fact that anyone can tell if a cake tastes bad/good, but only a few select people (such as professional taste testers) can articulate exactly what's wrong with the cake and tell you the correct ingredients/steps to make it taste better.

So, you want to know what's wrong with each of these Dungeon Defenders cakes? 

  • For DD1, you are absolutely correct that seeing significant defense progression is a large reason of what made DD1 enjoyable. However, that came at the cost of defense balance being completely tossed out the window. When was the last time you saw a slice n' dice in a nightmare build? When was the last time you *didn't* see a buff beam in a nightmare build? Can you farm for coal without a summoner (due to the additional minion units)? I think for DD1 we're well past the point of no return in terms of defense balance, so future updates will likely be in terms of new content and quality-of-life improvements.
  • DDE failed because 1) it was released too soon (forgive the cake pun but it was not baked long enough), and 2) they COMPLETELY butchered stat balance. Players hit level 60, saw there was no end game, complained, the devs released overly progressive gear without raising the level cap, broke defense balance even more, players left. Splendid gear ranges from cumulative stats under 1000 to stats that can easily hit 10K+. I'd submit that I wanted to see this game succeed more than anyone in the community, as I have Steam Workshop cosmetics accepted in-game. I'm actually still quite bitter about how DDE turned out to be honest. They had an AMAZING opportunity to improve upon DD1 and actually balance it right this time, but they ended up doing a worse job. I invested my entire being into that game both before and after release, and watching the game turn out how it did was soul-crushing.
  • DD2 in terms of balance is heading in the same direction DDE went, albeit on a much smaller scale and I can tell they're being extremely cautious about it. I can tell they're being cautious because max item power levels have for the most part not been touched since gear was introduced. However these critical hit stats aren't going to do anything to improve balance; it's just another broken stat with a different label slapped onto it. I've started more threads than I care to count on various components that are not enjoyable and even included solutions to said problems. I've established relationships with various individuals at Trendy and have reached out to them, providing candid feedback on aspects that are not balanced and how they can be fixed. Maybe I'm just not being patient and they're actually listening/planning on various suggested components, but what troubles me is that I also thought that exact same thing with DDE (and we all know how that turned out). I don't want to get burned like that again.

I suggest this be recognized as the post of the month.

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@SGRock quote:

I suggest this be recognized as the post of the month.

Someone's rant about their own ego is worthy of being called post of the month?

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@Draco18s quote:
@gigazelle quote:Not at all. Sometimes I wish I could reach through the internet and grab the people at Trendy responsible for balance, shaking their shoulders saying, "why won't you listen to me?! I have the answers, I know why the game is not fun, please just let me help you!!". I don't think they understand the impact their roles have; in fact I'd argue that they single-handedly have THE most important role in the success of the game. If game balance fails, the entire game fails. End of story.

You and me, both.

+1

Just the fact they fixed the bugged boots and replaced it With uber monk aura.... Makes me scared. 

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@Syclic quote:

Someone's rant about their own ego is worthy of being called post of the month?

I suppose that post was a bit more on the conceited side, wasn't it.

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Lots of salient points in this thread. Along with the Critical Stats thread, I've sent this thread to our design team to digest as they continue developing these changes to the game. Thanks to everyone in this thread for taking the time to share your thoughts and suggestions!

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@iamisom quote:

Lots of salient points in this thread. Along with the Critical Stats thread, I've sent this thread to our design team to digest as they continue developing these changes to the game. Thanks to everyone in this thread for taking the time to share your thoughts and suggestions!

Always awesome to see responses from the Trendy team iamisom. Best part of DD2 is just how much you all do pay attention to what we have to say.

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The tower range stat didn't just make your towers more powerful, it made them more fun.

The tower speed stat doesn't just make your towers more powerful, it makes them more fun.

Tower crit makes your damage numbers bigger, but it lacks the visceral fun factor of the stats you are abandoning.



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@Dabmaster quote: I mean sure, the jester was amazing for it's ability to use all weapons, thats the only reason it was the goto choice.   

Someone hasn't played the Jester...

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I dont' really like the idea of removing speed at all. They should perhaps reduce its influence, but remove defense speed and people just stack the next best stat, remove that, same thing happens, etc. So it's really kind of pointless. We don't even need this to solve stun locking. Just have enemies build resistance to stun (e.g. each time it lasts shorter until it doesnt work at all) or only be able to be stunned once every X seconds.

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@Ubara-tutu quote:


@Dabmaster quote: I mean sure, the jester was amazing for it's ability to use all weapons, thats the only reason it was the goto choice.   

Someone hasn't played the Jester...

We just have different play styles. I don't like standing on a crystal with a lupine gathering mana to play slots. I would prefer to run around on my hero boost monk doing 50 million than chopping percentages off my monster count. You can't scoff at tower bost either. My jester is only 86 not even ult geared she has a bf drill on her and the only time she is used is, you guessed it, for nmhc tinkers lab runs.

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@Alhanalem quote:

I dont' really like the idea of removing speed at all. They should perhaps reduce its influence, but remove defense speed and people just stack the next best stat, remove that, same thing happens, etc. So it's really kind of pointless. We don't even need this to solve stun locking. Just have enemies build resistance to stun (e.g. each time it lasts shorter until it doesnt work at all) or only be able to be stunned once every X seconds.

I think defense speed should stay as well, with reduced influence. 

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@Dabmaster quote:


@Ubara-tutu quote:


@Dabmaster quote: I mean sure, the jester was amazing for it's ability to use all weapons, thats the only reason it was the goto choice.   

Someone hasn't played the Jester...

We just have different play styles. I don't like standing on a crystal with a lupine gathering mana to play slots. I would prefer to run around on my hero boost monk doing 50 million than chopping percentages off my monster count. You can't scoff at tower bost either. My jester is only 86 not even ult geared she has a bf drill on her and the only time she is used is, you guessed it, for nmhc tinkers lab runs.

I was only commenting on the "only reason" bit, not saying anything about using other heroes. There are lots of reasons to use the Jester and I don't think the ability to use any weapon is one of them.

BTW, I use many different DPS heroes depending on the situation. Jester is just one of them.

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