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mktsang

Future of DD2 and the removal of Defense Speed

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@Odai quote:

I really dont like the idear of just removing the speed stat and add more damge (crit) instead.

This way people will just take the class that has the fastest towers and push damage + crit and this will be the new meta.


At this point you can just remove all items and stats and just let us get + damage with each level up... :/

@Gutu quote: I think Crit is a messed stat to balance obviously, either it's too meaningless or a necessary thing, also adds RNG effect to the output of your defenses, which i'm not sure if it's something I like, I always seen the defenses as something i'd love to rely on and be sure they'll do their part of the work.

I love those two comments so far because they hit the nail on point. I know from other games that crit chances are always something that does offer a varity of builds but there will always be a meta, something that works best. Of what I understood the DS removal as sec/third stat is to prevent the perma stuns. I don't think it will affect the gameplay that much if it does still exist as a prefix. This is simply because the speed does affect the DP and DCC. Why do I think it does? Back in WoW when speed was introduced it was a main goal to achieve a certain amount to reach the max. efficency. Crit and damage was both affected by it. As in DD2 you were only able to get a certain amount of all three stats due to the prefixes you were able to get. People did of course try to bring in the perfect balance. Some classes did not rely on speed but on their abilities which did scale off of diffrent things than speed.

So I think it's wrong to chance the stats. Trendy should focus on how the current stats affect the towers and change the multipliers, maybe even add a cap for speed to prevent the stunn chains. It's for sure something they discussed and I'd like to hear why they seem to think it's a bad idea - I'm just curious ;-)

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In every game I've ever played, chance-based criticals have never once been fun or satisfying. 


I'm disappointed Trendy. I don't know why, since you've clearly shown many times over that you give no serious consideration to concepts like balance or long-term game health, yet still, I'm disappointed.

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Trendy should bring back good old DPS and Tower stats on items and we can then all get that warm fuzzy feeling of DD1 but in a controlled not spiralled out of control way.

What was wrong with the idea of four tower and four dps stats?

Just don't make it trivial like what happened in DDE with the Divine and Corrupted armour that dropped like raindrops in a monsoon.

Don't give the items too many upgrade levels like they tended to have in DD1 or too much per upgrade like in DDE.

Two points per level seems to be OK, the more stats the more these two points are spread therefore the lower the overall effects.

The more stats the more "successful" loot drops and the more chance of a small upgrade. the more success people feel they have the more they will play.

The more they play the more chance they could use in game currency etc.


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Removing a central stat from the game and just to fix one problem seems kind of lazy... This gives defenses a HUGE downgrade, and I don't think I would like this at all.

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Would you guys like to know something funny? Not the 'haha' kind of funny, but the 'gee thats interesting' kind of funny.

Even before stats were introduced to DD2 over a year ago, I provided very candid feedback that attack rate and range are what broke DD1 and (later) DDE. Auras comparable to the Death Star and harpoons shooting so fast the projectiles clip with each other were not balanced at all. Stats in DD1 were only meant to scale by a couple hundred, but as updates came they inflated into the thousands. If DD2 was to scale indefinitely, attack speed and range must be static in some form or another.

When stats in DD2 made their debut, range was locked to upgrade level, but attack rate was included as stat. Providing more candid feedback, I stated that tying range to upgrade level was a super smart choice (and that they could even scale it a bit better so we get more of a range boost per upgrade), but that attack rate is eventually going to break the balance of the game. And, lo and behold, we eventually hit a point where defenses cover their own weaknesses. Cannons shoot fast enough to hit every goblin coming their way, geysers can pin enemies indefinitely even without a lightning aura, and DPS in general increases exponentially due to an increase in both defense power and defense attack rate. It is a most glorious catch-22; limit attack rate so defenses still have weaknesses? You do not feel like you're progressing when you dump 100 into attack rate and get only a tenth of a second speed boost. Increase attack rate so you can see you're visibly progressing? Defenses fire too fast for defense balance to remain viable. 

I saw this day coming over a year ago, and while removing attack speed as a primary stat is a step in the right direction, replacing it with critical hit chance is just as bad. It is a stat that cannot scale, so we're either going to face diminishing returns or a hard cap. This means that crits after a certain point are the norm, and that "lucky" builds become more and more inefficient as time goes on.

Critical hit damage? Awesome, as long as it's an additive increase and not a percentage increase, we should be fine there. Even with stats going into tens of thousands, critical damage would be viable to invest for "lucky" builds, and would be a solid sidegrade to defense damage.

My proposed solution

Despite all of these stats changes, I honestly think the entire system needs a looking at again.

Instead of +stats on all our gear, give us multiplier gambits. I'm talking about "double damage, half attack rate" or "double range, half damage". Gear dropping at the beginning of the game would provide very subtle gambits, like "-5% damage, +5% attack speed". As we level up, our defenses automatically become more powerful in terms of base damage. As we progress, gambits get bigger; by level 15 we'd be seeing double/halving multipliers and by level 25 we'd be seeing 10x and 1/10th gambits. Raw power is tied to what level we're at, so the actual damage we pump out wouldn't change a whole lot; instead it lets us specialize our defenses to reach extraordinary traits. If we want planet-sized auras, we can have them! It also means that said planet-sized auras only a fraction as effective as regular-sized auras. Gatling cannons? Awesome! They would be much more effective against swarms and much less effective against heavily armored enemies (which would use subtractive armor instead of dividing damage armor).

This also solves the current gear issue where legendaries is the end-all-be-all. All gear that drops in wyvern den incursion would be item power 150+; this includes powerful, epic, mythical, and legendary. Powerful gear gambits would remain relatively low, while legendaries would be gambits to the extreme. We would spend our time farming perfect gear according to the playstyle we want. If we want tiny auras with a massive bonus to damage, we can farm for it. If we want giant auras with decreased attack rate, we get to farm for it too. We could make legendaries as rare as Ultimate gear in DD1; Legendary gear would truly be coveted, but it would not be absolutely necessary since we'd still have 150+ item power gear.


This right here would give me the specialization that I've been yearning for such a long time. Heck it lets me specialize my hero enough to where I wouldn't even care about the skill sphere system anymore.

TL;DR: Give us multiplier gambits instead of stats on gear. This allows us to customize defense stats like attack rate and range without making one or the other inherently better in all circumstances.

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this is a very interesting idea. I like that it would open up a variety of ways to build the same hero class.


edit: [[31834,users]] considering your active on the forums and a member of the council, has there ever been mention on the gambit system and their plans for it in this game?

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I like the idea Gigazelle as you say it gives a great deal of flexibility.

One question how do items play together or will the gambits be only on one type of item per hero.

Say my monk picks up and x10/0.1 item for the lightning aura so it is 10 times radius but 0.1 of the damage but then I have another of the same would it mean a 100 times radius and 0.01 damage. So all mobs would instantly be in the aura at spawn and be slowly worn down. or would they be additive so 20 times the size and 0.2 damage.

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@gigazelle quote:*text*

I had pretty much the same idear. That Towers should have a horizontal progression. I really would like to see that system instead the "more stats, more stats, more damage" system we have at the moment, which will only get worse in higher levels.

Have a look if you want here: Click


No <3 for Tower Crit!

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Just to add my voice that trying a new approach is a good thing, even if that new approach is found later to be flawed.  Part of the reason for the change (and thus the reroll/wipe) is being able to change their data structures to be more flexible so that when problems are found, they can be changed without having to reroll or wipe any item other than the ones with the problem.

It means that they can try out new stat allocation models quickly, automatically updating every piece of gear to the new system, preserving the reason the gear was kept and used in the first place.


And oh yeah, towers being able to crit is going to be awesome.

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@Fozzie quote:

I like the idea Gigazelle as you say it gives a great deal of flexibility.

One question how do items play together or will the gambits be only on one type of item per hero.

Say my monk picks up and x10/0.1 item for the lightning aura so it is 10 times radius but 0.1 of the damage but then I have another of the same would it mean a 100 times radius and 0.01 damage. So all mobs would instantly be in the aura at spawn and be slowly worn down. or would they be additive so 20 times the size and 0.2 damage.

You'd add the multipliers, then multiply against the defense; if you managed to get 4 legendary armor pieces all with 10x gambits, you'd end up with 40x range and 1/40th damage. This also means that if you get a 10x range and 1/10th range on different pieces, you'd balance yourself out. Gear on the backend would actually be full numbers used in this formula:

1+[Positive gambits] * 1/1+[Negative gambits]

So a piece of powerful gear with a 10% bonus to attack rate and a 10% penalty to damage would look like this:

Attack rate:
(1 +.1) * 1/(1+0) = 1.1 * 1 = 1.1 multiplier

Damage:
(1+0) * 1/(1.1) = 1 * .91 = .91 multiplier

With this formula, you can have both bonuses and penalties on all gear. Say for example I have 2 bonuses for defense damage (+50% and +5x) and two penalties (-3x and -6x):

(1+.5+5) * 1/(1+3+6) = 6.5 * .1 = .65 multiplier

Note that though the multiplier is only .65 for damage, equivalent bonuses would be dispersed across the other defense stats.

One imperative component to be wary of is the aspect of one gambit being less viable than others. I'm fairly certain these gambits each would have their uses:

  • +/- damage / attack rate
  • +/- damage / range
  • +/- attack rate / range

I'm not certain how defense health and critical damage would fit as gambits, which leads me to propose that these two stats would not be multipliers (at least for now). Instead, they would be stat gains like we currently have. Crit damage would be weighted more on +damage pieces to really make those hard hits count, and defense health would be weighted a bit more on + attack rate pieces to help with trap charges and aura durability. Each piece of gear would have one or the other; perhaps on legendary pieces there'd be both.

For reals though, this exemplifies the system that made DD1 so fun, while at the same time preserving defense balance so we don't end up with a meta of minions on buff beams inside auras. Instead, people can get super creative with builds. All of a sudden, gambits give any defense a near-unlimited amount of strategy. Say for example we use gambits for the earthshatter:

  • 10x damage 1/10th rate: one-shots most common enemies, but only attacks every once in a while
  • 10x rate 1/10th damage: Skrillex move over, this earthshatter's dropping the bass
  • 10x damage 1/10th range: It's only able to hit enemies nearly in front of it, but anyone who gets in front of it are in for a WORLD of hurt.
  • 10x range 1/10th damage: The earthshatter becomes an attrition defense, battering enemies as soon as they leave spawn.
  • 10x attack rate 1/10th range: Be prepared for a barrage of mountains that hurt as soon as an enemy is within range.
  • 10x range 1/10th attack rate: Doesn't attack that often, but it will still get plenty of hits in that do plenty of damage before the enemy even gets close.

The earthshatter can all of a sudden fulfill one of many purposes: Do you use it as a melee annihilator with +damage -range? Or do you use it as a spearthrower disruptor using +rate -damage? We're just talking about 1 defense here; there are 15 others in the game that can potentially fulfill roles previously never imagined. Swimming pool-sized geysers, auras merely the size of basketballs, all these would be equally viable puzzle pieces to an overall solution. It's then up to us to figure out how to piece defenses together to make an effective build.




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@keona quote:

gigazelle considering your active on the forums and a member of the council, has there ever been mention on the gambit system and their plans for it in this game?

A couple of hero specs were actually gambits last year, but they weren't that great or balanced (which is why they were removed). I haven't heard anything about defense gambits yet, but I really hope they consider implementing them.

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Critical hit damage? Awesome, as long as it's an additive increase and not a percentage increase, we should be fine there. Even with stats going into tens of thousands, critical damage would be viable to invest for "lucky" builds, and would be a solid sidegrade to defense damage.

Couldn't agree more [[31834,users]] 

If something like rate and chance is increased by stats without a decrease to it, it's definitely going to be broken or cap very early to a point where it's sad.

The same way difficulty for mobs is increased on health number, resistances and mob number. If we were to start increasing the mobs attack rate and speed, we'd reach the point where mobs teleport and their attack animation is so fast that you don't even see it. The same goes for our defenses. And i do believe this is a good step, however i'm uncertain about critical chance.

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Crit rate/bonus damage reminds me of a rogue-lite game...blanking on what one, kinda sci-fi though.

I found a weapon that with a few perks my character already had, gave me 100% chance to crit (actually, 110%, not that it "double crit" at all) and did 300% damage on a crit (plus or minus 30%, e.g. it might've been 270% or 330%, somewhere in that range, but lets call it 300% even).  The downside of the weapon was its poor damage rating.  That is, I could either get guaranteed crits that did 40 damage (100% chance to deal 300%) or I could get a weapon that did 90 damage (15% chance to deal 180%).

It still usually worked out to just keep the 100% chance to crit (I still had to hit things, of course) but I was tempted on a number of occasions to switch weapons, due to other abilities.  For example, that 90 damage weapon has an average damage of 114, just shy of the always-crit weapon's 120, assuming same odds of hitting.

So there can be interesting ways to do things, but you're right [[43252,users]] in that it's a balancing act.  And the first thing that'll need to happen is that every tower will need to have its own crit rate and bonus.  Some higher, some lower, but all different so that a "increases all towers crit rate by X" is still going to be meaningful.  I'd also stipulate that percentages over 100% (for crit chance) be meaningful, that is, double-crits.  110% chance would work out to "always crits once, 10% chance to crit again for even more."

And it doesn't have to start happening at 100%, either.  You could make the double-crits start happening at 50% too.  50% is a 1:2 chance of critting, 60% is a 1:2 chance of critting ("cap" is 50%) followed by a 1:10 chance of critting (60% - 50% = 10%) for a total 55% chance to crit at least once, where there's a 5% odds of a double-crit.

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Adendum:

Note what the percentages work out to in terms of increased damage (the amount of increase is irrelevant).

The above "60% crit chance" with a 50% "cap" and double-crits works out to...*drum roll* exactly the same increase in damage as 60% chance to crit and no double-crits.  55% chance to "crit at least once" where 5 percentage points is a "double crit," so if we count that 5% twice... 55% + 5% = 60%.

This even works when you get to (and exceed) 100% only without having the "always crit" effect:

  • 100% (50% cap): 50% * 50% = 25% to not-crit-at-all, 25% chance for a double-crit, 50% chance for a single.  50 + 25*2 = 100
  • 150% (50% cap): 50% * 50% * 50% = 12.5% for three, 27.5% for two, 37.5 for one, and 12.5% for zero.  12.5*3 + 37.5*2 + 37.5*1 + 12.5*0 = 150

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@Gutu quote:

Critical hit damage? Awesome, as long as it's an additive increase and not a percentage increase, we should be fine there. Even with stats going into tens of thousands, critical damage would be viable to invest for "lucky" builds, and would be a solid sidegrade to defense damage.

Couldn't agree more Gigazelle 

If something like rate and chance is increased by stats without a decrease to it, it's definitely going to be broken or cap very early to a point where it's sad.

The problem with lucky builds is simply it does not really exist when you can build several towers. Crit is a fine stat if it would only affect a single target/tower or whatever but as a stat it will affect multiple towers of yours and the effect will be the same as with DS, no real balance for certain tower builds. The crit would boost all AOE effects as well if the damage on mosters is not calculated on it's own. Apprentice towers or the squire uber would be really strong at this point.

Edit: If the damage calculation is made separate, it will increase the crit chance just from the AOE effects. Double edged sword.

I doubt it's a nice move for the game balance. We'll see what they bring up. apprentice_small.png

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Most of my toons are tower builders. I am still in early endgame. I use 2 stat combos when gearing. Like I use TD TS on my Apprentice and Squire. On the monk I use TD TH.  I'm okay with only 2 stats on gear when I focus on two stats for my character builds. Changing DS for 2 stats kinda messes with that balance. I like the idea of crit, but can you wrap crit into 1 stat. Like crit rating of 500 gives you 10% crit with a crit multiplier of 50% and like a crit rating of 800 gives you like 15% crit with a multiplier of 60%.  Also if DS becomes a passive stat can upgrading a defense upgrade the speed also. So a rank 5 cannonball shoots faster then a rank 1.

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I don't like their ideas for tower speed either. Single target towers will have a harder time, and in DD1, getting towers to missile spam was SO pleasing. It actually was one of the bigger motivations for farming to me. Also, in DD1 I never heard anyone complain about sped up tower animations (nearly 2000 hours of playtime).


Seems like they're making a problem out of something which totally isn't a problem. Something the community loves, into something the community really does not like. What was wrong with the DD1 way of doing things?


I do not like crit chances either. I do not want to charge into a group of mobs with my sword, praying to the RNG gods. For heroes, the root problem is that we simply need better damage scaling. Heck, even double of what it is now would still not be OP. And RNG based tower DPS? No thanks!


Instead, how about adding a crit stat which increases headshot crit damage? How about adding original stats, like piercing for bows, firing speed/mutliple projectiles for staves, etc? -(Actually, I know you are working on new weapon sets. but some of the basic weapons also could use more "fun" stats) How about making tower animations sped up depending on tower speed? Even give it a steeper scaling curve if you want. Actually, basically make it like DD1.


The only DD1 stat related thing I found backwards, was how slow player projectiles went on NM difficulty compared to the insane and below.




Apart from the stat side of things, I do really enjoy the game, and it was a fun devstream. Can't wait for survival mode to be added. :)

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@Ratiasu quote:

Seems like they're making a problem out of something which totally isn't a problem. Something the community loves, into something the community really does not like. What was wrong with the DD1 way of doing things?

It was (and still is) a problem due to how difficult it is to balance a game where DPS increases exponentially. Imagine if onslaught was released today - we'd be able to handle enemies in the billions of health, merely because the attack rate of geysers can pin enemies indefinitely. A couple cannons can keep swarms of goblins at bay, when swarming goblins are designed to be the hard counter to powerful single-target defenses. The root cause of both of these issues is attack rate existing as a stat without any downsides.

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@gigazelle quote:


@Ratiasu quote:

Seems like they're making a problem out of something which totally isn't a problem. Something the community loves, into something the community really does not like. What was wrong with the DD1 way of doing things?

It was (and still is) a problem due to how difficult it is to balance a game where DPS increases exponentially. Imagine if onslaught was released today - we'd be able to handle enemies in the billions of health, merely because the attack rate of geysers can pin enemies indefinitely. A couple cannons can keep swarms of goblins at bay, when swarming goblins are designed to be the hard counter to powerful single-target defenses. The root cause of both of these issues is attack rate existing as a stat without any downsides.

I'd say the constant stunning effect is overpowered in its own right. It would be more logical to disconnect the proc from rate of fire. Swarming can still be a thing by increasing resistances/hp of the trash mobs, as well as by putting one tanky mob in front of the swarm.

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@Ratiasu quote:

I'd say the constant stunning effect is overpowered in its own right. It would be more logical to disconnect the proc from rate of fire. Swarming can still be a thing by increasing resistances/hp of the trash mobs, as well as by putting one tanky mob in front of the swarm.

if you hadn't notice your cannon speed was already capped by the retargeting issues. What are these?

a Canon with quite a good amount of speed would have a fire rate faster than the re-targeting time, which means if your dps isn't real unless the canons were focused on a single target and didn't have to change. The time it took to change target was like 1 second while your rate would be of 0.5, this was a big issue for all towers, the only defenses were were the non tower defenses that didn't require target like the electric aura and explosive traps. 

This was caused by the defense speed breaking the logic and defense's job. Don't worry your build will still work as it will be balanced around it, however a sniper won't become a machine gun. 

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   I personally strongly dislike where DD2 is headed. I play primarily solo, in fact, all solo. I despise playing with other people. Especially when the current player base hardly has enough players to random an incursion, and even if you find enough, 2 of the 4 will be carried 4/5 times. If they're not trolls, they probably suck. The current direction is going to destroy solo play. It will simply be non viable. Between the limit of three character slots not allowing you to build using all 4 characters and now this horrid nerf to one of the most pleasing aspects to dungeon defenders. I simply don't see a point in playing further. 
   Its already a stupidly hard to maintain two ogres as it is, you pretty much require amazing kiting ability, or a squire geared to tank them. Gearing defense HP for shields is pointless. most of the time Ogres just walk right by them anyway or 3 hit the things even if they have 14k hp. My favorite is when they walk past your shield to your bottleneck and jump one time annihilating your entire build. Previously switching out for a hero DPS solved the shortcommings of your towers. However, hero DPS in DD2 is pointless. It's not worth wasting the time attempting to gear one, it's inefficient. It wastes a hero deck slot, and even with the top gear in the game, you're not going to burn a 800k hp ogre.
   The removal of defense speed is a slap in the face for anyone looking to relive the glory days or of dungeon defenders, you've already limited tower range, at this point you should go ahead and change the name of the game. This is not a sequel to the game that I logged THOUSANDS of hours into. DD1 was popular because of its progression. You needed to get impossible to find gear for more than a dozen characters. If you wanted an awesome pet, guess what, you had to get to round 40 on some of the hardest. longest builds I've ever played. You had to be tactical, You had to TRY and gear. You had to THINK about what you were doing when you built your characters, what purpose that character was meant for, and how to use their mechanics in the most efficient means possible.
   This stat change and the addition of luck based critical hit modifiers is a bad move. Even though DD1 had broken mechanics the flaws in the mechanics were overshadowed by the pure difficulty of the game. A nightmare build on kings game survival was hard. It didn't matter how good you were. If you played legit and didn't have hacked gear. Even getting to the point where you can even think of building one of the end game maps on nightmare was a reward in itself. It was progressive in every sense of the word! What we have now is a simple "Quick get all the DPS stats you can, That's all that matters!"
  Previously every single character had MULTIPLE build paths. For someone that enjoys solo play, and even for multiplayer this was phenomenal. It allowed you to specialize your towers, and then to remove yourself to bring in a dps hero at a 20% tower dps deficit of not having your builders physically in the game. It gave a reason to play the game! No matter how many times I finished gearing a character, I always had another one to level and gear for a different advantageous tactic. When your harpoons finally reached that .2 cast rate, you FELT like a god. You felt that all of the hard work all of the time, effort, and struggles clearing the much more significantly challenging map builds that DD1 had WORTH IT! Yet, you would STILL fail. You could still be easily over ran. Annihilated even. You jumped for joy when that 4 tower stat chest piece dropped. Sure, it wasn't perfect. The game may have been slightly broken, but it was truly fun. You felt joy. You felt a desire to farm that stupidly hard map even though you knew you would fail on round 8. Passing gear checks actually meant something!
  DD2 doesn't give me a single one of those feelings with it's mechanics. We are quickly moving towards a "build one way, or no way." mentality. Heck were already there!
  A simple solution to the trap/aura stun lock is as simple as a diminishing returns code. If any mob has been stunned X amount of times consecutively, they can not be stunned (by lightning) for X seconds. Allowing them to pass through bottlenecks for the swarming effect. This also allows the cannonball tower stun effect to still proc or a freezing tower to freeze. without having to flat rate one of the most significant primary stats to this franchise over one simple trap combo.
   If DD2 is to be successful it must find a balance of the old and the new. Every game I've played that the sequel changed the major mechanics of the first have never been as entertaining. Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 are a great example of what happens when you destroy a fan bases expectations by a direct change in the mechanics.
  I hope at least a few people make it through my wall of text, at a bare minimum I've made my opinions on the matter heard!

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@Dabmaster quote:

     The removal of defense speed is a slap in the face for anyone looking to relive the glory days or of dungeon defenders, you've already limited tower range, at this point you should go ahead and change the name of the game. This is not a sequel to the game that I logged THOUSANDS of hours into. DD1 was popular because of its progression.

  Previously every single character had MULTIPLE build paths.

We are quickly moving towards a "build one way, or no way." mentality. Heck were already there!

I disagree on just about every point you made, but I'll highlight this part:

DD1 already had a "build one way or no way" mentality with a single progression path: tower builders each with a single focus + one DPS hero (Jester, IIRC, although there were other choices, but that one was very strong).  So I'm not sure why you're claiming otherwise.

Two, removing a broken stat is not a slap in the face.  Welcome to pre-alpha where changes to the balance (and everything else) are to be expected.  Tower Speed was broken in DD1, per the 0.2 attack rate harpoons attacking so quickly that their projectiles clipped through each other.  Or summoner archers having to repeatedly get fixed so that their animation time would scale properly.

Trendy has recognized that the animations are already hitting the limit on how fast they can play with the amount of tower speed stats already available to players which means that its not future proofed.  They won't be able to raise the level cap and add better items, because we're already breached the hypothetical "hard cap" on how fast towers can shoot.  There is no other solution but to remove that stat from items and have it scale solely based on level where it can be controlled without breaking.  A slap in the face would be leaving it in due to legacy, e.g. "Its always been like that, so it's going to stay like that."

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@Dabmaster quote:

...
   If DD2 is to be successful it must find a balance of the old and the new. Every game I've played that the sequel changed the major mechanics of the first have never been as entertaining. Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 are a great example of what happens when you destroy a fan bases expectations by a direct change in the mechanics.
...

This. I've removed myself from the forums for a long while and just observed because of many of the same things this player here has stated. DD1 was amazing BECAUSE of the imbalance, BECAUSE of the multiple characters, the things one could accomplish through creative use of optimized builds. Bugged out cannon hoses and steady streams of bali bolts may have strange aesthetic side effects but they're also something else VERY important to what made dungeon defenders awesome. You gave us stats that scaled into the absurd. The absurd became the standard. And then, you challenged that new standard. The new maps and difficulties were balanced around what players were accomplishing so it always stayed hard until you got to that next level of absurd. And that's what loot crawling ARPGs are about aren't they? It's a push and pull that makes it fun, you throw power at us, we collect that power and then the next level of challenge is designed to test that new power.


There's been a lot of talk about 'balance' in the forums. What is balance? This is a PvE game. We all have access to every hero and what's FOTM right now may change next month with the newest map... as long as the characters aren't all wet blankets.


-You want a rewarding solo experience-Remove the hero deck, significantly increase the limit on heroes available, and let your players be really creative. The hero deck limits build creativity and capabilities. Those limits also limit the creativity of your level designers leading to simplistic map design.

-You want to incentivize and encourage multiplayer-Make the increases in difficulty and loot quality significant with multiple players.


Talk of trivialized content and balance are severely limiting this game, yes it's a tower defense but it's also an action RPG. ARPGs are loot driven and a FEATURE of ARPGs is the eventual trivialization of content. Overgearing WILL happen, always. Some things *have* been OP, a small degree of balance must exist, but this is being taken to the extreme.


I'm still playing, and i'm gonna see how things turn out. But I agree with Dabmaster 100%.

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