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mktsang

Future of DD2 and the removal of Defense Speed

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@Dirigible quote:


@Dead-Eye Darkside quote:

Wouldn't just making Geyser traps either not be affected by speed or require 2 to 3 times the amount of speed that is currently bringing them to such a quick recharge solve the issue but leave Defense speed as is?

Not sure if that is the reason that they are taking it out, besides something about animations not working right, but I think making it so that each mob can't be affected by the same trap more than once would be the easiest way to fix that setup from being OP

That would make traps absolutely terrible though unless you heavily multiplied their damage. |: 

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No defense range AND no speed.. I can't imagine this working well if the game turns out remotely like DD1.. my towers have nearly no range and their attack rate isn't exactly impressive either, and having only damage stats is really depressing

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@Jibril quote:


@Dirigible quote:


@Dead-Eye Darkside quote:

Wouldn't just making Geyser traps either not be affected by speed or require 2 to 3 times the amount of speed that is currently bringing them to such a quick recharge solve the issue but leave Defense speed as is?

Not sure if that is the reason that they are taking it out, besides something about animations not working right, but I think making it so that each mob can't be affected by the same trap more than once would be the easiest way to fix that setup from being OP

That would make traps absolutely terrible though unless you heavily multiplied their damage. |: 

Between the damage from being in an electrical aura whilst being knocked up, then the time spent in it whilst stunned, plus the extra combo damage, then the time to walk to the next geyser at the other end of the aura, knocked up, stunned again, combo damage again, then the damage from any AA/flameburst/any towers nearby during that whole duration, I still think it could be extremely viable to use a geyser/aura combo, especially in a meta where DS isn't a primary stat  which would the few options for CC much more valuable 


If you had a constant stream of enemies all close to each other, at the geysers default cooldown, it might hit like half the enemies, so I would imagine with DS being a secondary stat that they should probably lower the reset timer on geysers to compensate a bit.


Of course this is all my opinion, and if you think different I can totally respect that, we can't really know anything until we see how it all goes down

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@Valthejean quote:

I have no idea how I can do incursions without that electrify combo solo.

Cause you're not creative / well geared enough. You, guys, closed your mind into an elec/combo metagame (which is effective, I agree on that) but there's much more to explore with potentially 12 defenses towers to build in a map.

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@Mawimwe quote:

Cause you're not creative / well geared enough. You, guys, closed your mind into an elec/combo metagame (which is effective, I agree on that) but there's much more to explore with potentially 12 defenses towers to build in a map.

Thank you for being so condescending.

The game was an absolute nightmare for me until I reached enough defense speed to actually use the geyser combo.  So pardon me for enjoying a mechanic that removed the senseless bludgeoning of my head against a rusty bat.

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Personally,  It is pre-alpha. This is the time to make these kind of changes.


I question the change personally since it is starting to feel like they are taking away all the tower stats (first Range, now Speed)...  but in the end if it makes for a better game I will be happy.    If it doesn't I have plenty of confidence that they will adjust it and fix it.

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@Dirigible quote:


@Jibril quote:


@Dirigible quote:


@Dead-Eye Darkside quote:

Wouldn't just making Geyser traps either not be affected by speed or require 2 to 3 times the amount of speed that is currently bringing them to such a quick recharge solve the issue but leave Defense speed as is?

Not sure if that is the reason that they are taking it out, besides something about animations not working right, but I think making it so that each mob can't be affected by the same trap more than once would be the easiest way to fix that setup from being OP

That would make traps absolutely terrible though unless you heavily multiplied their damage. |: 

Between the damage from being in an electrical aura whilst being knocked up, then the time spent in it whilst stunned, plus the extra combo damage, then the time to walk to the next geyser at the other end of the aura, knocked up, stunned again, combo damage again, then the damage from any AA/flameburst/any towers nearby during that whole duration, I still think it could be extremely viable to use a geyser/aura combo, especially in a meta where DS isn't a primary stat  which would the few options for CC much more valuable 


If you had a constant stream of enemies all close to each other, at the geysers default cooldown, it might hit like half the enemies, so I would imagine with DS being a secondary stat that they should probably lower the reset timer on geysers to compensate a bit.


Of course this is all my opinion, and if you think different I can totally respect that, we can't really know anything until we see how it all goes down

Geiser aint the only 'trap' though. Placing an explosive trap that can only deal damage once per enemy would render it absolutely useless. I mean it's bad now, but imagine if it could only hit each mob once. -Shivers- 

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I am puzzled by all the discussion of "what will the maximum crit be" and "low level gear will be useless since the crit % on gear will be too low." Why would Trendy not learn from the mistakes of past games and use such clunky systems when they could go with a scaling diminishing returns crit stat?

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Biggest problem of DD2 go even bigger.

Lack of side grades. DD1 was great, imo, because of the many side-grades in the game. There are different pieces of items with different stats on your hero. You can have defense speed and defense range on some, defense power on another and you are not completely rubbish. Each items can have whatever defense stats, even have negative defense stats, and you can still call it upgrade because you just get 200 more range from it.

In DD1, perfect gear is almost impossible to get, which forces players to explore the side-grades. You can have more range, if you choose this other piece with slightly less speed.

In DD2, there is only 1 thing to chase, and that is DPS. Since the stats are pretty static, only the level and rarity of an item matters. Since there is no side-grade, only DP/DS matters. With many of the secondary stats going away from last patch, 1 less thing to chase. The game become so linear with so little progression, it is boring.

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@andyness quote:

As a DD1 veteran who recently started playing DD2, can I just ask what the f is the point of passive flat stats? Things like monk tower range being a passive makes absolutely no sense to me. 


In the first game you had 4 tower stats you wanted: Damage, rate, HP, range. The first two stats are basically the same if you think of it as DPS. If you go through with this change in DD2, you'll basically have THREE stats that are basically the same thing - DPS, and only HP as a stat that does something else. Not to mention that critical chance by definition introduces more luck and less skill to the game.


I thought that making the sequel would actually diversify things, not remove good mechanics...

i dont know either, first they removed range, now speed... like i said at this rate we will end up soon with only + damage which will be lame and boring... And now they add crit which is basicly just + damage at chance...

They should not have changed the 4 stats system from dd1, but they go further and further away from it :(

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Sigh, simplification of gameplay, here we go. First it was Diablo 3, now DD2. 

DD1 and DDE were great, why change something that wasn't broken. They should a find a way to improve those systems, not remove them.

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@Deathrow quote:

Sigh, simplification of gameplay, here we go. First it was Diablo 3, now DD2. 

DD1 and DDE were great, why change something that wasn't broken. They should a find a way to improve those systems, not remove them.

How exactly weren't DD1 and DDE broken?

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So we know that they're removing Defense Speed.. let's see what it effects: Armor - yup, pretty much every builder has them on every armor piece; Weapons - yea, same as previous; Spheres - well, no need for them anymore, right?; Passives - you like your x% rate boost? well Trendy be like: "Sorry, no more rate boost for you!"; Pets - surprise! they also have Defense Speed... for now at least. So pretty much every aspect of the game will get nerfed/effected.

In any case, if this really happens, the only difference would be in tower damage, which leaves only 1 and only stat to put emphasis on (well maybe tower hp, but that is for weak, beside Huntress' traps) which simplifies the progression into a monotonous chase for just one stat and eventually becomes über boring.

We also know they're adding those crit passives. Do they add them into already existing gear? Or you'll have to find your desired gear again?

Bit of my opinion on these passives - it pretty much removes the skill factor and adds into luck/randomness whether you succeed or lose. Not the smartest move in my opinion.

And not knowing what is gonna happen just creates a void of uncertainty, which removes (at least for me) the will to play anymore, maybe just beside dailies, until they decide to do something. Do they reroll pretty much everything and you end up with your current gear half "empty", or they wipe and you'll end up gearing up again? - which probably applies for both cases. But for the time being for now there is not really a point in progressing until they decide to make next step.

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I have to say after running some things with out traps and using the ice towers it was alright but still with out speed I am not sure where this game will go and this causes an unwillingness to play on a normal basis, this is not one headache I want to be apart of, talking to others and thinking it over myself just don't think this is going to end well..so gonna sit back and watch how things play out with out putting to much time in to it.


This change greatly worries myself and a few others I talk to, these "special stats" that they plan to add better be one hell of a boost, also it would be the smarter choice in my opinion since they said they wanted to keep speed on 1 item as a special stat, instead of it being a raw number iam hoping to see %s but we have to wait and see.

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How did the last few posts suddenly decide that we're getting passives for Crit and Crit damage?


There will be 4 new primary stats. Defense Critical Chance, Defense Critical Damage, Hero Critical Chance, and Hero Critical Damage. These new primary stats will appear as secondary stats on gear dropped. Defense Speed is being taken off of the list of stats that will appear as a secondary stat on items and will be added to the Passive(AKA special stat) list on some piece(s).

@czThePROcz quote:

In any case, if this really happens, the only difference would be in tower damage, which leaves only 1 and only stat to put emphasis on (well maybe tower hp, but that is for weak, beside Huntress' traps) which simplifies the progression into a monotonous chase for just one stat and eventually becomes über boring.

So no, there will now be 4 defense related stats(instead of 3), and 3 of them will directly affect damage output.

@czThePROcz quote:

We also know they're adding those crit passives. Do they add them into already existing gear? Or you'll have to find your desired gear again?

There was no talk of adding or removing Crit Passives (The only one currently is Crit damage).

@IcyOrca quote:

This change greatly worries myself and a few others I talk to, these "special stats" that they plan to add better be one hell of a boost, also it would be the smarter choice in my opinion since they said they wanted to keep speed on 1 item as a special stat, instead of it being a raw number iam hoping to see %s but we have to wait and see.

You don't even need all of the Defense Speed that is available now, people were pulling off the Geyser/Lightning combo well before everyone had over 1000 DS.

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I'm looking forward to this change. At the very least we'll have something new to figure out, in terms of how much Crit damage to get while keeping Crit chance at a good value etc (1/10 Diablo 3), and the new monsters system of them spawning with extra features, like the Stonethingy example they gave on the stream, monsters that resist fully or partialy to some schools of magic or physical damage, spawning dynamically... awesome! That will make Onslaught more awesome!

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I'm not keen, yes adding these new stats will allow for cool on critical effects down the line but it removes build variation, why not have both? If these stats are implemented it will end up exactly like Diablo 3 being mandatory (If you want to do damage that is) your either using them everywhere possible or your doing pathetic damage without them.

I've never liked diminishing returns when stacking stats it just makes things more complicated. What I would really like to see is all gear being able to roll all stats, for example, currently Increased projectile range only rolls on helm. Instead allow it to spawn on all items then if you have it on say both helm and gloves only register the stat once from which ever item that has the highest value. Similar to Pillars of Eternity stat suppression system. It seems Trendy is already limiting specific stats to one item only. At least then we can mix and match gear pieces instead of automatically trashing everything that cant roll the stat were looking for. This would certainly get me looking at loot again, though admittedly the system wouldn't be very intuitive unless explained well.  

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I'm just curious as hell on how this will affect the game, such major change can bring so much more to the game if balanced correctly, however improperly balanced or applied and it can ruin part of what wasn't yet broken.

I have faith in Trendy and if the mess is made there's still fix to it. I think Crit is a messed stat to balance obviously, either it's too meaningless or a necessary thing, also adds RNG effect to the output of your defenses, which i'm not sure if it's something I like, I always seen the defenses as something i'd love to rely on and be sure they'll do their part of the work. 

On the other hand speed is a even more messed stat to balance so i can understand the getting ride of it being way better for the game balance. 

In my opinion, a change that i will have to play with before i feel comfortable on trash talking it, 'cause while it's in paper it's hard to tell as the way it's implemented it's what really changes.

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I'm gonna be honest, atm we've got nearly nothing to do besides a daily and egg farming, so any new feature or reworked one makes me happy because at the very least I'll have stuff to do ingame. Having 2 new offensive tower stats is also really awesome, Is it best to try and aim to a specific value of crit chance and then stack crit damage and power? It is always fun to have new stats to tinker with, and this patch will also change the difficulty of the waves themselves!! It's like playing a new game :D. Personally I love to try and make a build that can just complete the map with little interaction, and if these new dynamic waves with immunities/resistances are really as hard as they seem, it will make for awesome fun, to try and figure out mixtures of towers and auras.

Tower Speed is an awesome stat, but it needs to be attained in smaller quantities so by having other offensive stats we have more room to improve and perfect our loot to our liking/playstyle. Let's just hope crit chance on towers is properly balanced, because that also has the potential to break the "metagame".

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@Gutu quote:

I'm just curious as hell on how this will affect the game, such major change can bring so much more to the game if balanced correctly, however improperly balanced or applied and it can ruin part of what wasn't yet broken.

I have faith in Trendy and if the mess is made there's still fix to it. I think Crit is a messed stat to balance obviously, either it's too meaningless or a necessary thing, also adds RNG effect to the output of your defenses, which i'm not sure if it's something I like, I always seen the defenses as something i'd love to rely on and be sure they'll do their part of the work. 

On the other hand speed is a even more messed stat to balance so i can understand the getting ride of it being way better for the game balance. 

In my opinion, a change that i will have to play with before i feel comfortable on trash talking it, 'cause while it's in paper it's hard to tell as the way it's implemented it's what really changes.

Your Engrish never fails Andre.

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hmm I think this change won't be great off the bat but when they add more special stats on gear it'll be better. As the way I'm thinking of it is you'd get gloves that have +% attack speed but nothing else will spawn on them so you'll be pigeon holed into getting it, but eventually there might be other special stats that appear on gloves that you'd want over attack speed.

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Idk, after losing range and now speed I may just take another vacation from DD2 and come back later in development in hopes it's fun again, having just power/hp isn't just boring, it's sickening, and crit/crit dmg are my least favorite stats in every game because it promotes pure luck/gear and it turned out SO well in Diablo 3.  I mean, atm there's nothing to gain from leveling up, no ability/skill/talent etc, it's 100%, straight edged across the board gear, gear, and more gear. You can have no idea what you're doing but be geared and get significantly farther in the game than someone with minimal gear who knows what they're doing. Removing good stats like DS/DR and giving us this crit crap is just going to make that even worse. Hoping this doesn't stick, and that Trendy realises just how far they're going in the wrong directions before too much manpower is wasted on it.

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I'd honestly probably quit if they took defense speed off of equipment as an upgradable stat...That's an important feature in the gameplay that can easily be fixed by setting a max cap on each defense.

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@Pneuma quote:

I'd honestly probably quit if they took defense speed off of equipment as an upgradable stat...That's an important feature in the gameplay that can easily be fixed by setting a max cap on each defense.

I think they dont want to cap or capp defense so easily at this early stage of the game, therefore they implement this change to slow it down.

I think Trendy has absolutely no idea why DD1 was so successful. DD1 is impossible to find perfect gears, even with the addition of Lab Assault, and its insane mythical drop rate. People tend to use items with lots of builder stats, a side grade as you will, and when players compare towers, they don't usually look at the DPS, they might look at Aura radius, or attack rate, or how tanky the archers are, but now DD2 is just 1-dimension boring item grinds, and players are forces to get the perfect items since its so very easy to get (compares to DD1). Whenever people build a map they just compare DPS, nothing is comparable because the variation is too small. With the removal of armor set (pristine/leather etc in DD1) players has even less items to grind for, less armors to try out, less side grades to explore.  


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@Gutu quote:

I'm just curious as hell on how this will affect the game, such major change can bring so much more to the game if balanced correctly, however improperly balanced or applied and it can ruin part of what wasn't yet broken.

I have faith in Trendy and if the mess is made there's still fix to it. I think Crit is a messed stat to balance obviously, either it's too meaningless or a necessary thing, also adds RNG effect to the output of your defenses, which i'm not sure if it's something I like, I always seen the defenses as something i'd love to rely on and be sure they'll do their part of the work. 

On the other hand speed is a even more messed stat to balance so i can understand the getting ride of it being way better for the game balance. 

In my opinion, a change that i will have to play with before i feel comfortable on trash talking it, 'cause while it's in paper it's hard to tell as the way it's implemented it's what really changes.

Yes, have fun comparing tower damage when there is luck involed, i dont like that factor. It doesnt make the game a taktic planing game and more of a "one-armed-bandit" luck machine.

Its just boring we only have now damage and + change of extra damage left. I really dont like the passives system together with the main stat system.

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