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mktsang

Future of DD2 and the removal of Defense Speed

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I want to make a recap of today's dev stream, I think it is actually one of the most eye opening/least boring of them all, because the devs are actually talking about something new instead of answering if there is wipe/ps4/trade/release/f2p/reroll.

Major thing. They are going to remove Defense speed as a secondary stats and have it on item special stat(aka passive/ mods) and on sphere.

Dev may have implies that without the massive DS on traps and all, electrocute perma stun combo might be resolved after the change, but new elemental combos or buffing the existing elemental combos is unconfirmed.

To replace DS, they are going to add new stats, "Defense critical chance"(DCC) & "Defense critical damage"(DCD). For DPS heroes, new items will roll hero critical chance (HCC) and hero critical damage (HCD), which is different than the current "Hotspot"/"weakpoint" system. I think its a good start for DPS heroes but ultimately just more junk items for builders, because now builder has 3 stats to chase after (DP/DCC/DCD) while a dps hero has to chase 4 (HD/AP/HCC/HCD)

My opinion on Critical chance: I know this might be too early to worry about Critical chance, but if the devs team decided that critical chance is going to scale by percent,the result is going to be catastrophic. For if Critical chance is scale by %, players in early levels will see no improvements on their performance. Since +1% critical chance is hardly noticeable. And in later levels, if the critical chance reaches 100%, there will be no need to farm for more critical chance, which will end up having the same problem we have right now, that everyone will be chasing after 2 stats. 

Devs think boost monk is troublesome, but in the context of legacy gears. But in my opinion legacy boost monk WILL eventually get rerolled, just regular boost monk is already OP. In DD2 boost monk functions exactly like EV in DD1, except boost monk does not require any good stat but only DH, and is the least gear intensive character in the game. All a boost monk need is a relic with boost special stat and he could function as good as any builders. With 40% damage boost, boost monk provide the best utility in the game without any similar competitor. The boost aura is good in any situation as long as it covers more than 100 offensive DU. Which unlike EV, covering tons of DU is extremely easy for boost aura. Are we going to add a new monk slot in hero deck so people wont forget to bring in their boost monk?

Devs don't have any opinion on having large sphere unlock at lv 24, instead of like the specs that unlock much earlier. They think if large sphere unlock at earlier level and have the sphere effect scales with level, this might hurt higher level progression. But right now with the less farmable item pool and the high unlock level of large spec, one may argue the difficulties of low level game is significantly higher.

On the topic of Uber 2 new uber spheres are already done, but release day still is uncertain. Uber towers will also keep the same visual as the basic tower because they want to make tower skin a reality, and having uber change the look of towers could be confusing.

Tavern customization is in the plan but not top priority, Betsy head will have to hang in somewhere right? 

Pet evolve: someone has to fill this part up I wasn't interested in this so i grab lunch.

I might have missed something don't hit me if i do, thanks.

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I haven't watched the stream, but from reading your post, it sounds to me like we're going from bad to worse (when it comes to mechanics)...

Despite the fact that the "hotspot" crit system did promote active playstyle for dps heros (as opposed to just holding right click in a lane as range hero), the aim auto-assist and current wonkiness of hit detection and point of origin for projectiles shot by the player made that system a giant pain in the rear.  That being said, changing from that to a system where crit damage AND chance are individual stats on gear seems like a horrible idea.  Crit chance in particular seems like it ought to be white text and/or sphere only stat, and crit dmg seems too specific to place as a main stat (on first impression at least).

Removing defense speed as a main stat on gear might turn out ok, but it's raising red flags for me because I'm worried that it will just be a case of "for builders, get this" for the spheres, because if defense speed does still exist as a stat you can increase, regardless of how you delimit it, it will be essential to get for builders because of how influential it will be for your tower dps if it's restricted.

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I think "weakpoint" and the new critical system is going to coexist, but i don't know if the gear roll will cri damage is going to be affected. Anyway, since the "new" items revamp isn't set in stone yet, its kinda bit of early to worry about, hope they could straight it out before pushing out. 

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@Prince Mononoke quote:

Removing defense speed as a main stat on gear might turn out ok, but it's raising red flags for me because I'm worried that it will just be a case of "for builders, get this" for the spheres, because if defense speed does still exist as a stat you can increase, regardless of how you delimit it, it will be essential to get for builders because of how influential it will be for your tower dps if it's restricted.

I think the main idea is to entirely remove the concept of cap, be it hard or soft. Current system cannot handle super-long-term, endless progression. Eventually something will need a cap, and, rather than putting it at 1.0s like ballista and makes everybody unhappy with the defense, they remove it now so they don't have to deal with it later.

Also the introduction of DCC and DCD parallel the HCC and HCD, making it easier to balance the game. Since both of the should have similar critical chance and critical damage modifiers, Trendy will only need to change the base damage to make either one more rewarding/less rewarding.

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I love the idea of adding in more stats for tower gear, the more the merrier in my opinion.  I do worry how this will effect balance, mainly for solo builders.  Losing the effective infinite stun will assuredly make wallers valuable again; but with a 3 hero limit on the deck, this is just adding another level of frustration.  In addition, losing speed to the secondary stat group is going to be just like losing range to it.  It's ultimately a souring experience.  Hell, I'm still displeased that range is so minuscule right now.  I think the devs have their hearts in the right place, but if the change doesn't come with some major re-balancing, the game's meta is going to become awful.  Honestly, I have no idea how I can do incursions without that electrify combo solo.

If the speed change becomes anything like range, the values will be barely noticeable which is never something you want to have.  If you get stats on gear, it should make some sort of impact.

I remain hopefully optimistic about this potential change, but I can't help but find some worry.

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@mktsang quote:

My opinion on Critical chance: I know this might be too early to worry about Critical chance, but if the devs team decided that critical chance is going to scale by percent,the result is going to be catastrophic. For if Critical chance is scale by %, players in early levels will see no improvements on their performance. Since +1% critical chance is hardly noticeable. And in later levels, if the critical chance reaches 100%, there will be no need to farm for more critical chance, which will end up having the same problem we have right now, that everyone will be chasing after 2 stats. 

Seems like the easy answer to it in the long run is to add Critical Resistance to enemies scaling up with levels, and/or have the base value reduce as a hero levels up. Where enemies have a -X% chance to get critically hit.


You also missed [[48971,users]] 's whole spiel on revamping enemies at the same time to make the resistances more noticeable. Where instead of having specific enemies be either magic or physical resist, the lane spawner applies a % resist to all mobs spawning there (visible on the billboard). On top of this they may be adding "secondary traits" to spawners outside of resistances that will add some variety to lanes (ex. regen, CC immunity).


Pet evolution will not be large model transformations like originally planned, this was found out to be too resource intensive to do for every pet. So while some may visually evolve, most wont. 

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I'm gonna have to wait for more details. I play a good variety of public and private games but these upcoming changes at the moment seem as though players will be punished even more for playing solo.

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Have a feeling in the back of my mind that's gnawing at me after hearing this change, it worries me greatly esp since we don't get much speed as it is.

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So there has to be a gear re-roll now.

Oh well it will spice things up for a while.

Let's see what happens

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Hard to predict how it is going to be without DS.... If they implement speed as a secondary, it is going to be absolutely mandatory for any builder. I think a massive part of the problem is the restriction 2 main stats per item. It is bottlenecking players into focusing on 1, max. 2 things only. 3 stats would allow for (slightly weaker) DPS/Builder hybrids or pure tower builds with meaty barricades / durable auras/traps, you could also keep Defense Speed as a main (how about Diminishing Returns on stun/knockup effects?). Considering the current state of the game (it's still kinda early), I feel a strong need to have every hero focus on just this one tower / ability.

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They also said something about the hero deck / charter limit, but a cut scene started playing just as they started talking so couldn't hear any of it!! That timing!


[[4370,users]] - can you clarify what was said re the hero deck / character limit?


critical hits from towers, hmmmmmm, not convinced it wont just create more problems!



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@Hover Tower 2000 quote:

They also said something about the hero deck / charter limit, but a cut scene started playing just as they started talking so couldn't hear any of it!! That timing!


iamisom - can you clarify what was said re the hero deck / character limit?


critical hits from towers, hmmmmmm, not convinced it wont just create more problems!



I would like to know this as well the game and CS were really loud.


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@mktsang quote:

Major thing. They are going to remove Defense speed as a secondary stats and have it on item special stat(aka passive/ mods) and on sphere.

I think the passive stats are the ones called secondary, so it's removed as a primary stat and turned into a secondary stat


mktsang quote:

dps hero has to chase 4 (HD/AP/HCC/HCD)

I think most people would rather get HCC, HCD, and either HD or AP, but likely not both (though maybe that's what you meant).  I see melee doing really well with HD because of the huge cleave and faster attacks, and ranged doing well with their short cooldown aoe/multitarget abilities.


mktsang quote:

My opinion on Critical chance: I know this might be too early to worry about Critical chance, but if the devs team decided that critical chance is going to scale by percent,the result is going to be catastrophic. For if Critical chance is scale by %, players in early levels will see no improvements on their performance. Since +1% critical chance is hardly noticeable. And in later levels, if the critical chance reaches 100%, there will be no need to farm for more critical chance, which will end up having the same problem we have right now, that everyone will be chasing after 2 stats. 

I completely agree, I can only imagine a few ways to "fix" this, such as making it so that you can't get any gear that has 2 important stats together, such as DCC/DCD/DP, and HD/HCC/HCD, though that's quite a few variables to cut out, so maybe not.  


Another way would be to have different map modifiers, such as "crit chance is capped at x%" for harder maps/difficulties.  This of course leads to that underwhelming feeling, assuming you are playing endgame stuff, of hitting a cap and knowing that all the time you previously spent getting the gear would fall off.


If the cap is just globally put at 25-40% or something, I feel like it wouldn't be silly to build those stats, yet not so crazy that it's OP.  Ideally it would be in the realm of being a viable build, but not any better or worse than just building straight damage. It would just be weird trying to loot better gear and get that lucky max roll on DCC%, which matches your current gear, but have all the other stats be greater than your current gear.


mktsang quote:

 Uber towers will also keep the same visual as the basic tower because they want to make tower skin a reality, and having uber change the look of towers could be confusing.

Just to clarify for everyone, ubers affect projectiles, skins affect the tower, and these can be done together, but putting an uber on and taking it off will change nothing other than the projectile


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Only a couple of thoughts myself, but im going to concentrate on the DS removal. As someone who plays almost exclusively solo, unless mobs get a rebalance i see this making my game play experience just tank like crazy. Now perhaps that's a little extreme and i will reserve final judgement till they release everything, however as it stands dealing with ogres that pop at the same time without having a seriously beefy wall in front of them.....yeah that just isn't going to happen if you remove DS. Of course this is just an assumption based on how crit works in pretty much every other game out there, that being that crit is a chance to deal double dmg for one hit. Ok so you have a FB tower, and it does 4k dmg per hit. Well i have a crit chance of 40%, so 40% of the time that tower will do 8k dmg instead of 4k. Sorry but that just isn't going to make a big enough difference on something that has 800k hps (which some ogres do). Not before they move out of range of the tower and since you can't tank ogres except with very creative kiting/a squire built specifically for it you simply can't deal with two simultaneous ogres solo unless they are both heading to the same spot. Note that i'm not talking about ramparts but more specifically betsy at this point.


Now even with the DS that i have on my builders (1k+ on all of them, app, squire, LA monk) in order to deal with the two ogres on ramparts i have two options. Remove my squire's cannon gear and put on a wall setup for the final wave, or slow one of the ogres down enough that the other one heads to the mid point solo and gives my towers the chance to focus it down before the other gets there again with me kiting to keep it from just demolishing my stuff. If DS is removed i truly do feel that unless dmg numbers are either increased, or mob hp's are adjusted on the big mobs (ogres, bosses) i think this is going to make the solo play virtually impossible unless you use specific combinations of heroes. And with the hero deck cap that is going to be very limiting on how you play the game. Now will i spend my time smashing my face into the keyboard trying to figure out a way around this, probably. Am i going to like doing it, no not really, simply because it is going to be very disheartening to know that something i was completely capable of doing by myself a month ago i can no longer do. I understand that this is meant to be a multi-player platform but honestly i don't find playing with others in this game as rewarding. There are simply to many trolls or people that want to be carried or just overall bad players that ruin the experience for me.


So super long rant over. Just want to reiterate that this is all from the perspective of a pure solo player, it does not take into account multi-player at all. 

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A big part of the loot revamp and stat reroll will likely be rebalancing content in the following patch.  I doubt they are looking as closely at current difficulty and how that will increase/decrease based on the loot changes.  Like [[53470,users]] had said, Ogres are going to be horribly difficult without active tanking, making Betsy Hard incursion nearly impossible solo and difficult even if you do have two active tanks.

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im currently on the fence  with how this is going to play out id like to see it balanced  fair and well so stuff like traps that require heavy ds to be even remotly usefull   and auras   require some ds not as much as traps   ( talking  1.2k ds to make elemental caose  worth using  combined with  1.1k dp  ( aswell as stacking some dh   via rune thingys) if traps dont  go off constantly its a waste  of du   if i had to choose between a standard  atack speed canon ball and a explosive trap with say  a 2 second + cd id go for the cannon ball every single time due to the  better use it will get 


and with the new stats will add some variaty as   dp wont need to be so high you can sacrifice some dp for crit chance and crit damage and end up with alot stronger overall towers im hoping  that there is an announced  max  % of crit and a  cap on how high we can boost crit damage to  or this could  end up more unbalanced than the game is now  but with these changes every single tower  will proberly need a rebalance  and be looked at could be a fair while longer before we see this in game.

hoping it doesnt get added before the proper testing can be done   would hate to see another boots style thing get into the game  

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Most of the time when I log in there is less than 4 other players in the social tavern making finding an Incursion game with others rather difficult so ultimately I mainly play solo.  With this change I feel it'll be even more difficult to even complete content let alone enjoy it.  

It seems like my Huntress who I created first and have played the most will be rendered useless, her towers will all suck in comparison to the other heroes and hero damage alone isn't enough to make up for the speed loss.  

Likely I'm going to need a wall/tank Squire, tower damage/boost monk and a tower damage Apprentice and any map that spawns two ogres at once like Betsy will be ultimately impossible.

If they removed/increased the number of slots in the hero deck for solo it might help alleviate some problems but that would ultimately mean creating and gearing more heroes overall.


I'll wait and test the changes and remain hopefully optimistic but without it accompanying re-balancing towers/enemies alongside the change I see this being harmful overall to solo play.

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I really dont like the idear of just removing the speed stat and add more damge (crit) instead.

This way people will just take the class that has the fastest towers and push damage + crit and this will be the new meta.


At this point you can just remove all items and stats and just let us get + damage with each level up... :/

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Its funny cause crit on towers is gonna make the game even harder to balance than speed. but we will see.

Future of DD2? its possible dd1/dde could have more players for the next 2years until there is enough content to hold players.

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@In.Session quote:

Its funny cause crit on towers is gonna make the game even harder to balance than speed. but we will see.

Future of DD2? its possible dd1/dde could have more players for the next 2years until there is enough content to hold players.

I herd they say they were gonna rework crits for heroes...did they say anything about towers being able to crit?

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That's a little disappointing. Ridiculously fast towers was something I was really trying to bring back from DD1. Oh well, I'm sure the new stats will be fun to play. I bet DPS inspect predictions become even less accurate, though.

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The game is going to be different after the removal of DS as a secondary. And we don't know any of the numbers involved so anything we can say is just heavy speculation at best.


If the Defense speed numbers are left as they are, we will have 744 Defense speed with a lvl 25 and all DS small spheres. With the current numbers that's enough to put Geyser trap at 3.13 recharge rate. Maybe not quite enough to stun lock things still, but with the addition of a passive it should be fine in that type of setup. All other defenses, with 744 speed, will attack 2.65 times faster than their base numbers. I somewhat hope that the formula for DS is adjusted down so that it will scale competitively with whatever scaling crit has, so it wont be an automatic 3 DS spheres for every builder.


Assuming that the crit scaling is going to work akin to Defense Speed, where each skill/defense has a base crit chance and crit damage and the DCC/DCD and HCC/HCD stats will apply % increases to these base values, we wont end up any closer to achieving specific stat weight differences between defenses.

@CAPSisHARDCORE quote:

That's a little disappointing. Ridiculously fast towers was something I was really trying to bring back from DD1. Oh well, I'm sure the new stats will be fun to play. I bet DPS inspect predictions become even less accurate, though.

Ridiculously fast towers takes away any meaning in having fast or slow base speed towers to begin with.

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As a DD1 veteran who recently started playing DD2, can I just ask what the f is the point of passive flat stats? Things like monk tower range being a passive makes absolutely no sense to me. 


In the first game you had 4 tower stats you wanted: Damage, rate, HP, range. The first two stats are basically the same if you think of it as DPS. If you go through with this change in DD2, you'll basically have THREE stats that are basically the same thing - DPS, and only HP as a stat that does something else. Not to mention that critical chance by definition introduces more luck and less skill to the game.


I thought that making the sequel would actually diversify things, not remove good mechanics...

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What I don't understand is that I assume this was to address the geyser/lightning aura stunlock combo.

Wouldn't just making Geyser traps either not be affected by speed or require 2 to 3 times the amount of speed that is currently bringing them to such a quick recharge solve the issue but leave Defense speed as is?

Maybe they were trying to stop the whole thing with gear. The "Checklist" as I call it.

-Is piece legendary? If no. Sell
-Is piece a level 25? If no. Sell
-Does the piece have both Defense Power and Defense Speed? If no. Sell
Repeat ad-infinitum

But it wont really stop that. Someone will find exactly what we need and everything else will be fed into the Alchemist to boost your perfect pieces or simply sold for gold

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@Dead-Eye Darkside quote:

Wouldn't just making Geyser traps either not be affected by speed or require 2 to 3 times the amount of speed that is currently bringing them to such a quick recharge solve the issue but leave Defense speed as is?

Not sure if that is the reason that they are taking it out, besides something about animations not working right, but I think making it so that each mob can't be affected by the same trap more than once would be the easiest way to fix that setup from being OP

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