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DrumMajor012210

Teamwork vs Multiple Characters

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I think that it's a great thing that the development team is trying to put more of a focus on teamwork within multi-player games, but I believe that the term "teamwork" is being a bit confused with just requiring multiple characters on a single player. I think that the combo system that has been implemented is great and interesting, but doesn't really require you to communicate or work with other players for a few reasons.

  • If you usually use a certain combo, you most likely have leveled both of those characters and have no real need for teammates to help.
  • If you don't have both characters leveled, then you probably aren't planning on using that combo in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I love the combo system and I think its very interesting and fun! But I think that more can be done so that communication and teamwork can be more essential to victory than simply having every hero leveled and maxed on your account. One think that I think would really encourage teamwork between players is to have more combos with activated abilities, rather than just towers. This is because each player can only use one hero once the wave has started, you you wouldn't be able to do it all by yourself. 

These are really just my own thoughts on the subject, but if anybody else has comments or suggestions on the matter, I'd love to hear what you think! =)

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Yup, with the current combo (eletric + gyser) the only time teamwork may ever be seen is when a ogre spawns, and thats just not how it should be.

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If you counter boost aura+ any defense a combo you're right. 

What do you expect to come from multiplayer? Or where should the multiplayer be?

Should the multiplayer be on building? I don't think the majority including me would like if the game would force you in team games to build with others, some people just enjoy the action part and should be able to not exactly build by resorting on their friends to build. 

Should the multiplayer be on the action? I believe this should be a must be, because it's where activity relies on, however we lack threats in the game that require us to use the action part of the game.

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@DrumMajor012210 quote:

I think that it's a great thing that the development team is trying to put more of a focus on teamwork within multi-player games, but I believe that the term "teamwork" is being a bit confused with just requiring multiple characters on a single player. I think that the combo system that has been implemented is great and interesting, but doesn't really require you to communicate or work with other players for a few reasons.

  • If you usually use a certain combo, you most likely have leveled both of those characters and have no real need for teammates to help.
  • If you don't have both characters leveled, then you probably aren't planning on using that combo in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I love the combo system and I think its very interesting and fun! But I think that more can be done so that communication and teamwork can be more essential to victory than simply having every hero leveled and maxed on your account. One think that I think would really encourage teamwork between players is to have more combos with activated abilities, rather than just towers. This is because each player can only use one hero once the wave has started, you you wouldn't be able to do it all by yourself. 

These are really just my own thoughts on the subject, but if anybody else has comments or suggestions on the matter, I'd love to hear what you think! =)

I wholly and 100% agree with you here, in fact wayyy back during the super-early days of pre alpha (talking more than a year ago here), there was no forge and we couldn't swap heroes . We had to rely on others to pull off defense combos, and doing so was oh-so-glorious. Watching my geyser knock up an enemy who is then killed by someone else's Skyguard was SO MUCH more satisfying than watching my geysers knock up enemies into my own Skyguards. When the hero deck was introduced, I was super passionately against it and the aspect of being able to use our own defenses to combo, but despite my passion against it, the hero deck stayed. People could now capitalize on their own defense combos, and the satisfaction of team building was forever lost from that point forward.

Fast forward to today, now whenever I build defenses alongside someone else, I always feel like I'm competing with them and not collaborating. Whoever has the best item power is going to be the one who builds, and everyone else gets to twiddle their thumbs while everything's being built. In addition, if you have a deck of builders and someone else has a similar deck of builders with slightly better gear, your deck's utility is completely nullified. I've experienced this several times, and now that my gear is solid, I see it happen to others all, the, dang, time.

Instead of the "player with the best gear builds everything" mentality we see today, I would absolutely love to see defense combos go back to their roots where you have to collaborate to pull them off. In group play, each player would only be able to summon defenses from one hero (we could swap heroes to whoever we wanted, but we could only build with one). That would return the satisfaction of team building to its former glory before the hero deck, because you're working as a team to pull it off. It would also remove the salty edge off of "my defenses are better than yours, so I build everything" that is so prevalent in group play games today. Players would get to learn to rely on each other, and make the increased loot reward that much more worth it.

In short:
3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group, because I have personally experienced what it feels like when that happens and I absolutely love it.

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@gigazelle quote:

In short:
3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group

I would absolutely love the system to work like this, however I still advocate equal drop rates across the board. I hate knowing that I'm going to get less loot when playing solo. So much so that If I have 20 minutes to burn and want a solo experience I wont bother starting up Dungeon Defenders 2, I'll just play something else. I feel throwing more loot out is the wrong way to incentivize group play.

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I agree with Gigazelle's post whole heartedly (especially the current state of 'mine are better than yours'). I would, however, like to see this as a mode you are able to select in game. You could also have additional difficulty perks like one life per wave, smaller mana pool etc. that increases loot bonus and create more rewarding and challenging gameplay.

 I also think that the matchmaking system would have to be greatly improved before adding this feature to the game. Imagine currently 'finding a game' in this mode?

Great discussion.squire_small.png

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@Yuwee quote:

I would absolutely love the system to work like this, however I still advocate equal drop rates across the board. I hate knowing that I'm going to get less loot when playing solo. So much so that If I have 20 minutes to burn and want a solo experience I wont bother starting up Dungeon Defenders 2, I'll just play something else. I feel throwing more loot out is the wrong way to incentivize group play.

What then, other than loot quantity, would incentivize players to step out of their comfort zones and actually attempt to collaborate with others? Because I guarantee you that if loot drop rate was the same I'd never set foot in a group tavern ever again (and I'm fairly certain a substantial portion of the population shares similar sentiments).

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I honestly do like the teamwork approach but I definitely hate "how many heroes you can bring" restrictions.

Why? In my head , I see this whole deal as a trade.

(+)Teamwork Based Gameplay for (-)Hours of replayability , (-)Creativity and (+)Linear gameplay.

Losing Hours of replayablity:

I've said it before in a couple of posts. This really discourages players from trying unique builds. Games like these are always going to have a "meta". Right now its Monk+Huntress. And while the team always seeks to balance things out  , theres always going to be something stronger than the other , thats not avoidable. Now If i can only bring 3 classes into a game , why try something fancy? Im restricted , I can't experiment. I cant bring my Tower HP Squire change to my Power Defense Squire then switch to my Defense Speed Trapper and then whatever my heart desires. I can't play the game the way I want to . So what does that do? Erase a bunch potentional gameplay time for a player like me , and as a DD Veteran , from experience im sure there are more people like me out there. It's not like you don't have to farm items and grind exp for each character or level them up. I don't see any harm in bringing back the old system where you could bring any character you'd want , infact I can only see benefits. But i'm sure im missing few points to defend the current system which i really cant see.

Losing Creativity:

As said , as a veteran DD1 and DDE player. Trying out cool stuff was a thing me and my friends loved to do. As soon as I was done with the game , the first thing i'd seek , is reason to play even more. Thats where creative builds would come in. This just shuts downs posibilities and will , to try out different stuff.

Making Gameplay more Llnear than it could be Wide:

Its never going to be linear gameplay experience with all the things that are going to be added such as challenges , titles and so on. But why make the main focus "the teamwork type of gameplay" when you can have both? Solo play is still by all means viable , but it just can be a bigger experience. And opening up how many chars you can bring into a game expands both scenarios , solo and online play.


Now for those who fear that this is going to make people get carried from others that bring multiple characters , isnt that going to happen anyway? People always going to bring the top 3 most played characters in 99% of the endgame matches , thats not a bullet the game can dodge anyway.


But anyway, thats just how I feel about it. Let me know what you guys think.

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@gigazelle quote:

What then, other than loot quantity, would incentivize players to step out of their comfort zones and actually attempt to collaborate with others? Because I guarantee you that if loot drop rate was the same I'd never set foot in a group tavern ever again (and I'm fairly certain a substantial portion of the population shares similar sentiments).

You have a valid point and I don't really have any suggestions either. To me its as simple as do I want to play alone or with others? Right now I'm rewarded for playing with others and effectively penalized when not and at the same time the content is arguably more difficult.

From what you have said the only reason you play in a group is for loot, there is just something wrong with that.

Content in group play should be scaled or mechanics added so players have to work together to overcome the challenges, one person should not be able to solo a group map. Surely the reward for group play is a diversified social experience that differs from your norm. The opportunity to celebrate a hard earned victory with your team, hell you said it yourself. "I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group, because I have personally experienced what it feels like when that happens and I absolutely love it." If that's not reward enough whats so wrong with people sticking to singleplayer with equal drop chances?

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@gigazelle quote:


What then, other than loot quantity, would incentivize players to step out of their comfort zones and actually attempt to collaborate with others? Because I guarantee you that if loot drop rate was the same I'd never set foot in a group tavern ever again (and I'm fairly certain a substantial portion of the population shares similar sentiments).

You have a point. There really isn't much incentive for players to cooperate and join 4 player games other than for increased loot or to just afk farm while somebody else does all the work for you.

However, I think that this could change once the game begins to get harder if hero based builds become effective. Once content is introduced that isn't 100% afk-able by defenses alone, dps and tank builds might become more needed in addition to defense builds in order to complete the challenge. But currently, dps builds are far outclassed by tower builds and aren't even needed because of the lack of difficulty in the current game

I really agree with gutu's statement that the focus should probably be on increasing the need for teamwork in the action rather than in the building stage.

Also, glad to see others are interested in improving the need for teamwork in the game. 

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The real issue lies in the fact that many people on the internet who play games approach it from an individual perspective.  That is to say they play the game in the world of their own little character and the other players in their game are just that "other players."  I have some very enjoyable games of teamwork when the players are into that... most of my games the other players simple do not care to have any communication with me and simply do whatever they want to do.

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@draemn quote:

The real issue lies in the fact that many people on the internet who play games approach it from an individual perspective.  That is to say they play the game in the world of their own little character and the other players in their game are just that "other players."  I have some very enjoyable games of teamwork when the players are into that... most of my games the other players simple do not care to have any communication with me and simply do whatever they want to do.

This is extremely true. Players generally are more focused on their own way of doing things and often view others as more of an obstacle in the way of their plan rather than as teammates or even worse.... as friends. *shudder* 

I guess my question to you is, does it have to be like this?

Does there need to be an "every man for himself" mentality?

Or can more be done to encourage communication, cooperation, and the feeling that everyone really is on a team?

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Personally, I would rather do Solo at the moment because my experience in multiplayer has been trying to work for a defense despite one person building random huntress traps around the map (or an apprentice locking up mana by building tier-ed defenses anticipating the outer ring is going to die), or as has been said here - 1-2 people who are dedicated builders. I don't think it's necessarily bad though - the builder side doesn't always have _insert_fourth_hero_ that might be needed for one style of defense, which means either improvising or coordination, which is somewhat fun. 

The only feels-bad is when the builder is the main defense manager and you're only a stop-gap for a random defense. Encouraging active gameplay doesn't help that though - where the hero has to be involved. I was playing with two friends on Forgotten Ruins incursion, and with a squire/apprentice cannon / freeze  (plus boost) combo we tried to defend that map. However, because squire #3 wasn't well geared (not the builder by the way), he wasn't able to deal with the kobolds in his lane from wrecking both him, the blockade, and the cannons, causing an eventual wipe. We later were able to get to 5/5 before losing, then eventually winning with Lightning Aura / Freeze, but the point is  I don't want multiplayer games to become where every map requires all champions to be 'x' item level gear in stats and the builder's mana is only funneled into the lane (s)he's defending unless it's utility like freeze or geysers because the damage is insignificant. 

Not only does that hurt the builders, but then you get people frustrated at others because they don't have 150+ item level gear (which only drop in incursion) before playing incursion (or 25+ freeplay and only have 19-20 gear, etc.). Plus, if the active side is what is essential, then you'll see people getting upset at others for not having good skill mechanics, or helping (or not helping) certain lanes. Plus, such a gear-shift would mess up the Solo gameplay unless stats had one value in Solo and another value in Group (requiring each hero to have two sets of spheres and gear). Towers have to allow for some level of "afk," so that heroes can focus to putting out firefights/hotspots in other lanes (because they can't be, and shouldn't be expected to be everywhere (unless it's the highest difficulty). Even if the towers can manage these lanes on the map, then those towers still require repairs or upgrades mid-fight.


TL/DR: An 'active' gameplay focus can easily sour the multiplayer experience as much as it can help it, and make solo play much higher in difficulty for arbitrary reasons (and little gain).

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Combos is where it is at for team play. Say squire A uses seismic stun to enable squire Bs cannons to reap heavy damage. That's a combo that should be rewarded by a bonus into the bonus meter on screen. As apprentice C uses tornado to hold mobs up for monk D's anti air this combo also goes into the bonus meter. As the meter gets full the next bonus to loot drops is unlocked. The more combos the team pull off in game the more they are earning bonus points to improve their loot. The meter is a visual incentive to be active and to work for tower and hero combos.

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While I like the idea of only allowing one hero, issues are raised......
- Everyone playing the same character and not having any combos..................
- Everyone getting into game and there are 0 builder characters
- Needing a buff aura and having no monk
- Needing to do lighting + knockup and having no huntress or monk
etc. etc.
(It would be brilliant if this was a separate game mode where you always start in tavern until you have 4 people)

Personally there are a select few people I have on my friends list because they have proven to me that they are as good at the game or better than I am, not to mention know what they are doing.

Usually I pick solo play or playing with them........... because I don't want to waste my time.

Usually regretting it when I break this pattern (not always)
e.g Got to Betsy boss on 25++ hard incursion then got wiped out because one person did not know what to do, standing on towers, getting them flamed, killed and wiping us = waste of time (I think I got some pet food..... maybe)

A note on that: If its your first time doing a map, ASK IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT

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@gigazelle quote:

In short:
3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group, because I have personally experienced what it feels like when that happens and I absolutely love it.

So if i do all the work alone, i'll get now reward for it?

What about matches where some ppl only bring DD-chars? What about ppl who like to play the DD?

What about pushing ppl who are not able to build because of low equipment?

What about ppl who just like to be afk during the whole game?

What about ppl which are to lazy to build?

What about an organized game where 3 ppl play DD and 1 is the builder? Or 2 ppl build and 2 play DD.

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I love the feedback and the respectful discussion happening in this thread. Keep it coming!

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@gigazelle quote:

In short:

3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

but what if somebody wants to play solo? You should not punish the solo players that much.

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@Cdr.Keen quote:


@gigazelle quote:

In short:
3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group, because I have personally experienced what it feels like when that happens and I absolutely love it.

So if i do all the work alone, i'll get now reward for it?

What about matches where some ppl only bring DD-chars? What about ppl who like to play the DD?

What about pushing ppl who are not able to build because of low equipment?

What about ppl who just like to be afk during the whole game?

What about ppl which are to lazy to build?

What about an organized game where 3 ppl play DD and 1 is the builder? Or 2 ppl build and 2 play DD.

what about them?
  
IF these people have no desire to actually play the game why are they even on? vote kick deals with these types. (low equipment not involved u can do most maps with a ipow of 80-100ish with knowledge of mechanics)

The problem with the game is there is so little when it comes to Mob types/Wave Diversity and Tower Diversity( and balance) aswell as Hero Diversity(and balance) this is something trendy may be half fixing with an item revamp but I doubt just revamping items will fix anything but it is a step in the right direction, maybe.

1-4 Players is unbalanced and its not as easy as inserting a feature from D2/D3 where monsters will get slightly more hp for each person that joins, Damage doesn't need to be effected cause it seems to be at a good place (aside from ogres and maybe some units could be stronger/weaker vs barricades and same for magic barrier). Then they need to balance towers proportionately so as a solo player it is possible to defend mainly with towers (possibly making it so 1 lane could be struggling, especially on bosses) so you feel on edge with some involvement, then once you reach a full game, towers may not be able to hold everything (but then they also need to change mechanics from holding everything but ogres still by putitng cooldown timers on things like gysers/Electricute by like 5s) meaning more things are walking forward which would lead to hero involvement to help weaker lanes. ofcourse sooner or later people could afk it eventually once they reach a high tier of item power.(most of this would be based on hard mode cause, you want normal mode to be soloable by any character.)

Locking the hero deck to 1 hero per person wont fix anything, even having it at 3 doesnt fix anything, people will just make a solo game, build how they like and invite there friends and the people who dont have friends to play with who join public games will be the only people harmed from this kind of change. sure it could force out friendships but then it also leads to people wanting to leach on the class they dont usually play and friends getting frustrated almost causing players to be stuck having 1 main character.

balancing a game is pretty hard you kind of have to think about every possible outcome and become a math wiz, with some of the current towers in the game and features the only way i can see it being balanced is to actually insert static stat checks for each level on each class and making them difficult to reach or chrome waves at random on all incursion maps which will force players to defend a lane (ofcourse it would need a warning "Chrome wave incoming") other than the the game will probably be trivial until we see more features/balancing and possibly the removal/modification of others.

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I think that they need to just make a separate set of difficulty levels specifically for people who solo or play in small groups, with only one or two lanes open. Then they wouldn't have to attempt to deal with the impossible task of making the team-oriented difficulty levels soloable yet still challenging for groups. They could rework the deck so that each player only gets one builder and one fighter, and allow players to see their group's decks and change their own deck when they first join a game but before they start playing.

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@Folly quote:

I think that they need to just make a separate set of difficulty levels specifically for people who solo or play in small groups, with only one or two lanes open. Then they wouldn't have to attempt to deal with the impossible task of making the team-oriented difficulty levels soloable yet still challenging for groups. They could rework the deck so that each player only gets one builder and one fighter, and allow players to see their group's decks and change their own deck when they first join a game but before they start playing.

With some development I think this is a fantastic idea, the role thing wouldn't work at low levels but it would be great to see what characters other people have in their deck.

+ Hovering over the characters icon would give you a mini stat sheet, making it easy to see the role of the character.

(The only problem being, people who are elitist will kick people with stats that are not "Up to their level").

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Part of the problem I have with most of the suggestions here is the level of elitism that has been rampant in DD since the word go. People lose it when you don't build the way they expect you to let alone if they have towers with even slightly better stats. Heck I've been kicked from maps for repairing or upgrading in the wrong order... and as the player base expands and becomes a bit older that will only get worse.


I can't help but cringe at the idea of any changes that might limit my ability to solo. So if you'd like to see more teamwork do it by making heroes more effective. Add more status effects to hero abilities and make them better than what a tower might offer.





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@gigazelle quote:

In short:
3-4 players: 1 hero per player can build, max loot bonus
2 players: 2 heroes per player can build, med loot bonus
Solo play: 4 heroes can build, 100% control over build but no loot bonus

I want players to collaborate to pull off defense combos when playing in a group, because I have personally experienced what it feels like when that happens and I absolutely love it.

I think that this might end up causing the same issue as the hero deck. People don't like to be limited. And allowing them to only build towers from 1 hero really limits the amount you can contribute to the team. 

I personally don't think I would mind it, but i know for a fact that many others would not be pleased.

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while I'm not sure how they can fix the lack of team work when it comes to building. I don't believe adding restrictions in the form of limiting hero availability based on number of players in the game will solve the problem. This might even cause more players to avoid grouping altogether since it could end up being very time consuming just to set up a map.

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