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And with 7.07 Apprentices go back to being useless again.


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oh look, its this thread again.

I saw it yesterday when squire was "nerfed" now apprentice is "nerfed" and its back.

I hope the devs dont pay too much attention to the forums because too many people dont have a concept of how the system works and cry "nerfed" every patch.


This coming from a guy that doesn't even have a level 70 Apprentice?

Squire and Apprentice are the two Tower classes - they're pretty much in direct competition with each other. Squire towers used to exceed Apprentice towers in every single aspect, so Apprentices were getting kicked from games. The devs have been doing this back and forth thing for a while now and it seems like every other patch the Squire towers are much better than the Apprentice's, except for that one very short window where we were broken a few days ago.

The problem is that every time Squires Towers are better than Apprentices I get kicked from groups, and I get kicked often and I get kicked fast. I like playing Apprentice, and I just wish we both had a spot in games like we did yesterday and today.

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The **** is with you people and "THE SKY IS FALLING" attitude. 10% is minimal, get over yourselves. This won't change anything, you'll do SLIGHTLY lower DPS with towers, it's fine. You're not losing 50% of your damage or anything.

EDIT: Ramp is how fast it goes up basically..


It's not just the nerf that's the problem, it's the fact that the Squire is getting a pretty decent buff and we're getting a nerf when things were pretty damn good last patch.

I know for a fact I'll be unwanted on my Apprentice in PUGs after this patch. Not too happy about that.

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Ok so lets do some math and find out why "Apprentices are Useless"

So there is a 10% reduction in attack speed on towers. What does this mean? i dont understand math?

Well lets figure it out.

For the sake of simplicity ill use fictional whole numbers.

Lets say your Magic missle tower does 450 a shot. with an attack speed of .5

That means it would be doing 900 damage a second.

Now whats it mean when it has a 10% attack speed nerf?

Well now it is 450 a shot with an attack speed of .55 because 10% of .5 is .05 which you add to the .5 making it .55

Well with an attack speed of .55 you now do 818 damage a second.

So you go from 900 dmaage a second to 818 damage a second. thats 82 damage less than before.

So because of 82 damage loss on the scaling DPS Towers, they are no longer viable in teams and will be replaced by squires whose towers do about 30% the damage Apprentice towers do?

Logic, no get!

Thankyou for another exciting Math Lesson with King.

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Anyone else notice how classes are only ever "overpowered" or "useless"? Unless you're the one playing the overpowered class of course, in which case they're "fine".


Haha, yeah. You never hear, "Ok guys, just got out of a game and I am doing WAY too much damage. like me need a serious nerf, we are too strong and unbalance the game." Everyone wants to one shot somthing but no one wants to do anything that requires strategy or compensation for the "nerf" they just want Trendy to make them overpowered again.

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What I find sad about all this is the fact that with things as they are now (7.06b) there isn't an insane map I can't do with only 3 classes and it doesn't really matter which 3. I admit I haven't done all maps on insane with every possible combination of 3 classes, but I know for a fact I could.

Patch 7.07 isn't going to change that in the slightest, it will just make it easier when the 3 classes includes a squire.

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Quadratics. Do you know them?

Apprentice Tower Attack Rate scales both linearly AND exponentially.


Unless I read the 7.05 patch notes wrong, it seemed to me that they said the Exponential Ramp was "almost linear." Well, it isn't exactly stated like that in the patch notes, but it was one of the Devs who said it was "almost linear."

But honestly, I might not know what I'm talking about.

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Lets say that at 100 points in Attack Speed you get a return of +1 attack per second. If you nerf the ramp by 10% then at 100 points in Attack Speed you would get +.9 attacks per second.


i get it. Thank you guys.
I like that i can build more squire buildings in the new version. But gotta do it while it lasts. Seems like every other day they gonna patch the game with significant changes.

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So because of 82 damage loss on the scaling DPS Towers, they are no longer viable in teams and will be replaced by squires whose towers do about 30% the damage Apprentice towers do?


Haha oh wow, I've never seen such a bull**** number before. 30%? Really?

I'm sorry, bias that strong just completely voids pretty much any opinion you have as far as balance.


And for the third or fourth time now I'm not simply complaining about the Apprentice nerf, I realize it's rather minimal, but that mixed with the Squire buff brings us back to second-tier tower builders.

Get ready to hear a lot of "Don't build towers, Apprentice - save DU for the Squire".

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Unless I read the 7.05 patch notes wrong, it seemed to me that they said the Exponential Ramp was "almost linear." Well, it isn't exactly stated like that in the patch notes, but it was one of the Devs who said it was "almost linear."

But honestly, I might not know what I'm talking about.


Until the mod tools come out we won't be able to definitively have an answer.

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Haha oh wow, I've never seen such a bull**** number before. 30%? Really?

I'm sorry, bias that strong just completely voids pretty much any opinion you have as far as balance.


And for the third or fourth time now I'm not simply complaining about the Apprentice nerf, I realize it's rather minimal, but that mixed with the Squire buff brings us back to second-tier tower builders.

Get ready to hear a lot of "Don't build towers, Apprentice - save DU for the Squire".


I'm going to guess that it was hyperbole and not bias.

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Get ready to hear a lot of "Don't build towers, Apprentice - save DU for the Squire".


Funny, this happen to me yersterday
"don't use DU for your useless tower, squire is the builder"

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I use App and welcome the nerf, after yesterdays update I was able to solo and not even try at all. I didn't even have to repair any towers, everything was dying before they even got to the towers.

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I have to admit, nerfing the apprentice was pretty bad. It needed a bit of a damage buff coupled with a speed nerf, very slight changed though. Maybe 5%-10%.

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I'm going to guess that it was hyperbole and not bias.


The only reason he exagerated so much was because he was biased. At least I hope he doesn't actually seriously think Apprentices do 3 times the damage.

Funny, this happen to me yersterday
"don't use DU for your useless tower, squire is the builder"


Yeah, but at least it happens a lot less frequently when things are more in line with each other.

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-1 DU on two towers, a bugfix and +10% damage.

I can't say how much the attack speed fix is going to affect the use of squire towers but I can guarantee that -1 DU and +10% damage isn't going to bury the apprentice.

If anything the decrease in DU cost allows more towers from all classes to be built, but go ahead feel free to act like this is the end of the Apprentice without even playing it yet.

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Fireball Towers are still going to do more damage than Harpoons or Bowling Balls. Plus, the Fireball Towers have an awesome AoE range now.

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yes, and it hit the first mob and the other behind feels almost nothing.
not even talking about kobold triggering.

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Its time for another Exciting Lesson of Math with King!

So, new question has arose.

30% Whats that mean?

Well, lets find out.

So how much damage do towers do?

Well my lvl 70 tower spec squires harpoons do 1700 DPS

My lvl 50 Tower spec Apprentice's Fireball Tower does 2200 DPS, at 70 i can only figure it will do somewhere around 2800-3000

So what is the diffrence between 1700 and 2800?

Well 1700 is 60% of 2800, which means there is a 40% diffrence between the 2. (yeah 40% is not 30%, i ball parked 30% without having definate numbers in front of me, but i was close)

So you can see that Apprentice towers are in fact 40% better than squire towers DPS. AND they have larger range. AND they have a wider cone. AND they attack faster and hit more.

So with that, we learnt hat, yes king cant ballpark numbers exactly, he was 10% off, but hey, he was close.

Thankyou for another Exciting Lesson of Math with King.

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without even playing it yet.


I hate this argument.

Trendy has given us the exact numbers and changes, so we can very easily theorycraft the post-patch effectiveness of classes.

And yes, each change by themselves is pretty small but add all things up together and there's suddenly a 25-30% larger difference between Squires and Apprentices then there is now.

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-1 DU on two towers, a bugfix and +10% damage.

I can't say how much the attack speed fix is going to affect the use of squire towers but I can guarantee that -1 DU and +10% damage isn't going to bury the apprentice.

If anything the decrease in DU cost allows more towers from all classes to be built, but go ahead feel free to act like this is the end of the Apprentice without even playing it yet.


I agree. It's not the end, it's just a nerf that was never required. They were so close to a balanced apprentice.

Speaking of, anyone noticing that the kobolds are battering the squire blockades now? Even with the HP buff, the kobolds just beat the living daylights out of my blockades in a few hits. I think they need another HP buff, or a nerf on kobolds, or something to balance this nightmare. It's frustrating because you get 6-7 kobolds coming at once to the same blockade, you can't repair because they are exploding in your face, so the blockade just goes down while you're standing there.

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yes, and it hit the first mob and the other behind feels almost nothing.
not even talking about kobold triggering.


I completed the halloween map on hard last night with my APP, and I saw my fireball towers doing AOE soooo....
Do you have an APP? just curious where you're getting your info.

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Its time for another Exciting Lesson of Math with King!


King and is condescendant tone dont factor piercing and knockback versus useless AE.
Range is irrelevant, most is vasted into wall / wherever, and 50 point is like enough.

Oh, and di i talk about elemental vs physical?
especially when we only got one "good" elemental tower, and the other one is total crap (lightning).

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I hate this argument.

Trendy has given us the exact numbers and changes, so we can very easily theorycraft the post-patch effectiveness of classes.

And yes, each change by themselves is pretty small but add all things up together and there's suddenly a 25-30% larger difference between Squires and Apprentices then there is now.


where did you get your Numbers / percents from? ^^ look above at King, at least he is backing up his statement with "theorycrafting"/numbers.


P.S. also if you are getting kicked or whatever, try hosting your own game.

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King and is condescendant tone dont factor piercing and knockback versus useless AE.
Range is irrelevant, most is vasted into wall / wherever, and 50 point is like enough.


Harpoons and Bowling Balls are limited to only hitting 6 targets. Fireball Turrets have no limit to the number of mobs they can hit.

And range is relivant if you can attack them sooner, they die faster and thus never get close to the walls. yeah knockback helps keep em back but them dieing quicker to the supioror damage of fireballs outweighs the trivial knockbal on bowling balls.

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