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Glazy

Dev Stream 20 Pet Evolution

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Hello

Based on the comments made during the dev stream last night they mentioned that having visual pet evolutions for all pets would take too long and take up too much man power.  They went on to mention they're thinking of only giving some pets an evolution visual and others won't, I see a problem with this.

Most people want cool looking pets and would always take a cool looking pet over one that looks like it's in diapers thus making most of the non evolution pets redundant.

My suggestion would be to give every pet only one visual evolution upon reaching max level, pets will still have multiple stat evolutions.  This will limit the amount of work required creating each per but also give every pet that "cool" graphic evolution.

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I would have to agree to a point, I do think that each pet should have at least one change with the more rarer pets having multiple or even better evolution's, but its still a system thats on paper and in its early stages so well have to see. 

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Man pet RNG is rough, maybe they should change how incubation works because of that. I hatched 33 pets and not a single tower power/tower speed pet. Its 1 pet per 8h, with ALL random stats. The option to incubate more than 1 pet would help for example.

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@ChilledFrench quote:

Man pet RNG is rough, maybe they should change how incubation works because of that. I hatched 33 pets and not a single tower power/tower speed pet. Its 1 pet per 8h, with ALL random stats. The option to incubate more than 1 pet would help for example.

there was some talk about an item that will reroll pet stats later, not 100% on the details but some devs were talking about it in a twitch ch

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Another solution might be to have fewer base pets.  Maybe change it so that each "species" only has one or two base pets and variations come from the way they evolve.  Maybe some evolutions could have a further second evolution, but at least this way everything would evolve at least once.  For instance, the Gato egg may always produce a more generic kitten Gato.  Based on whatever criteria makes the pets evolve, it would evolve into one of the three versions we have, now.  Propeller cat might have higher stat potential than the other two and wouldn't evolve further, but the other two would evolve again into the more panther and tiger like cats from the first game.  They could even have a couple of variations on those by simply having color swaps for a couple versions, like a green tiger and a harder to get white tiger, or a black panther and a harder to get jaguar.

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They're probably thinking that only Premium pets will evolve, and the normal ones you pick up from dungeons will only have one form. The more expensive the pet, the better the evolutions I'm guessing considering the more work that goes into it.

As a free game they need to make money and because they will make most of their money off of cosmetic features like pets and costumes, that's how it's going to play out most likely.

People who want cool and evolved pets will have to pay up. Not that I mind.


As for the multiple pet incubation slots, I'm sure that to get more you'll have to either use wyvern tokens or purchase currency gems to buy them. The hard workers will grind and wait for enough to get a slot, and the people who have better things to use wyvern tokens for or the lazy and instant gratification people will buy the slots.

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I personally agree.  I would much rather have fewer pets in the beginning with all of them having visual evolutions as well as the regular changes.  That doesn't have to happen for every tier of pet, but at the very least the top tier should be visually distinctive.  Even if that doesn't all happen next patch.  If they incorporate that in over time before launch I think is very doable.

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@MoleyEyes quote:

They're probably thinking that only Premium pets will evolve, and the normal ones you pick up from dungeons will only have one form. The more expensive the pet, the better the evolutions I'm guessing considering the more work that goes into it.

That seems to go against their claims that the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.  Pets aren't a purely cosmetic item, they provide bonus stats and abilities, so I wouldn't be so sure that's the direction they're going in.  Another thing that makes me think they won't do that is in the last devstream, the pet they were working on looked like it could conceivably be an evolution of one of the existing pets.

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@Isukun quote:
That seems to go against their claims that the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.  Pets aren't a purely cosmetic item, they provide bonus stats and abilities, so I wouldn't be so sure that's the direction they're going in.  Another thing that makes me think they won't do that is in the last devstream, the pet they were working on looked like it could conceivably be an evolution of one of the existing pets.

As it is the pets don't add that big of a difference so I don't believe it would be "pay-to-win" even with some evolved pets. The stats are really low after all.

I'm sure they're working on that as a test run it would be easier since they already have the first model and animation done for the pets we already have.

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Pets boost two of your hero's stats, possibly by a considerable amount.  Plus they have their own attack and an upcoming ability.  Boosts and damage will likely increase as pets evolve and continue to level, so I really don't see how making it only for pets you have to pay for wouldn't be a "pay-to-win" feature.  It clearly would give the advantage to people who are willing to pay for the added bonuses, which goes against what they claimed in regards to paid content.

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I don't know about you, but the pets I get only give about 20 points in whatever bonuses they have. It's really not that much. When you're low level it makes a big difference but when you're capped out you honestly only have the pet for looks.

The normal first stage pets will still have abilities and boosts same as always. The premium pets will just evolve like the clothes do with exp and money. 

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You must have some lousy luck, then, most of mine are at least double that, if not significantly higher.  Plus, as I said before, they all have attack values that go up as they level, which contributes even more to your overall DPS.  And they will have additional attributes as the devs add more to them.  My characters aren't low level, but I definitely see a difference when I don't have a pet equipped.  They are definitely not just for looks.


There is no way they would allow pet evolutions to be just a cosmetic change to the pets, they'd have a riot on their hands from the players.  And they wouldn't be investing as much time as they claim they are if it was a purely cosmetic thing, it would be shelved until later in development.  Why bother devoting a large portion of the team to pet development and evolutions if it was just going to be some throwaway cosmetic element in the game?  They'd be spending their time working on actual gameplay elements, instead.

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@Glazy quote:

Based on the comments made during the dev stream last night they mentioned that having visual pet evolutions for all pets would take too long and take up too much man power.  They went on to mention they're thinking of only giving some pets an evolution visual and others won't

They're trying but it's obviously a hassle. And the players can't miss what they don't have. 

It's better to say they're interested in making the evolutions but obviously it's hard on them. For each evolution they have to sculpt another object and code it. That takes hours for their sculpters and coders to do. It's not easy and I can assure you it's not 'a large portion' of their team, but having a small group of people doing all that work is rough.

People enjoy the pets, evolved or not. The people who enjoy them more than others can pay for the pretty and cool ones. That way their effort to make these pets isn't wasted on the people who only care about its stats. 

Like I said, if all you want from pets is the stats, they still level up and get abilities, just now they won't be as sparkly or pretty as the premium pets. That's just how things work in games.

If you had your way, there wouldn't be premium pets and the people who worked hard on putting these cool elements into the game wouldn't be getting paid as much as they probably should be. I like supporting the people who used their time, effort, and creative power to entertain me. I also like shiny pets. So I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks to the people who spent time on it and give them job security. 

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Seriously, watch the video again.  They explicitly state that the reason they are running behind is because they have their entire team working on pet progression (go to about 5:10).  While they may be exaggerating some, I'd say that constitutes a large portion, most likely the majority of the team.


And obviously I'm not cheap when it comes to supporting the company.  I bought into early access on a free-to-play game.  This isn't about being cheap, though.  It's about what THEY stated in regards to how they would monetize the game.  From iamisom: "When DD2 becomes F2P, it will be supported by ethical in-game purchases like cosmetics. You will never be able to pay for gameplay advantages."  So, while noble that you're willing to pay for a non-cosmetic item, they've already stated they won't be charging for anything that effects gameplay, so my guess is they won't be charging for the privilege of getting an evolving pet, since that would constitute a gameplay advantage.


Anyway, getting back on topic.  Another possibility might be to look at other free-to-play mechanics for pet evolutions.  In particular, collection or card games often have players level up their characters and then combine them to evolve or create new characters.  If they're worried about the amount of time needed to develop distinct evolutions, maybe that route would be better.  Rather than just evolving, they could fuse pets and get something that is a combination of the two stats-wise, but with the appearance of one of the evolutions.  Players might even be able to upgrade some of the player stats in a fusion if two pets have a stat of the same type, maybe 50% of the lower stat is added to the higher.  Special evolutions could be tied to rarer base pets.

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I agree, basing the first pets for an opinion on that they are purely cosmetic is silly. They will have active and passive abilities too, and get stronger. Pets never were cosmetic in dd1 and it wouldn't make sense for them to be now. They have even stated many times that we will not pay for anything that effects gameplay or gives an advantage. Too look at the pets now and say well its only 20 def health, it's purely cosmetic they must be making us pay for the evolution and it'll just make it look cooler is just flawed logic, almost to the point of being made up. I honestly don't see where your coming from at all.. But then I'm probably being narrow minded myself 

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The fuse idea is kinda cool, sounds like a ballache maths and balance wise though. However if I can fuse a cat and a dog, and produce catdog, I am happy. 

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A friend of mine used to always joke about making a bananacat in Power Stone 2.  


I think it could be pretty simple, though.  Basically, if two pets have the same player stat, they combine the two by adding 50% of the lower stat to the higher.  Then the new pet takes the highest stat from each source pet to make the new player stats in the evolution.  So say you have one with an attack value of 20 and defense power or 35 and another with attack of 45 and physical defense of 17.  It would add 10 to the 45 on the attack and then take the 35 defense power stat and drop the physical defense stat.  The pet's attack speed and power would be determined by the pet they fuse into, trying to get close to the average DPS of both starting pets.  Different pet combinations have specific pets they fuse into.  It may take a passive ability from one of the source pets, while the active ability would be determined by the new pet type.


To keep pets from getting too overpowered, fusions would have tiers and you can only fuse two pets to go to the next tier, so there is a limit on how many times pets can be fused together.  Tiers, like equipment, might also have level restrictions, so you can't just give a third tier pet to your level 1 character.  This could also open the door for having pets grow stronger as the level cap gets raised.  You could have fewer resulting fusions than the starting pets by having some fusions be more common, so a variety of coupling will result in the same fusion, while others are harder to get and require specific couplings, possibly relying on rarer base pets.

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I was suggesting that they would still get the upgraded stats and abilities, just that they wouldn't have new evolved forms.

Only the premium pets would have new evolved forms when they upgrade.

Same stats, just one looks fancier as it levels.

It's not giving any advantage over other players, it just looks nice for the people who pay for it. 

The players won't be losing out on any stats. The bonuses from pets isn't going to be any different from the premium pets because they'll still get abilities and upgrades, just no evolutions if that makes sense.

I'm just simply exploring the idea that only premium pets will get fancy new looks like the hero costumes do, abilities and stats are still normal.

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They made it pretty clear that pet evolution was linked to pet progression in the video, so I seriously doubt it will be a purely cosmetic thing.  It's not going to be like accessories and it's not going to be just a cosmetic change.  No other game that features evolution works that way and it would be a serious disappointment to the vast majority of their players if they did that.  They compared it to pokemon and even mentioned their original plan was to have evolutions for every pet, possibly even multiple for some.  That really doesn't suggest there was ever any plan to make them premium content, since they were supposed to be universal.

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@MoleyEyes quote:


@Glazy quote:

Based on the comments made during the dev stream last night they mentioned that having visual pet evolutions for all pets would take too long and take up too much man power.  They went on to mention they're thinking of only giving some pets an evolution visual and others won't

They're trying but it's obviously a hassle. And the players can't miss what they don't have. 

It's better to say they're interested in making the evolutions but obviously it's hard on them. For each evolution they have to sculpt another object and code it. That takes hours for their sculpters and coders to do. It's not easy and I can assure you it's not 'a large portion' of their team, but having a small group of people doing all that work is rough.

People enjoy the pets, evolved or not. The people who enjoy them more than others can pay for the pretty and cool ones. That way their effort to make these pets isn't wasted on the people who only care about its stats. 

Like I said, if all you want from pets is the stats, they still level up and get abilities, just now they won't be as sparkly or pretty as the premium pets. That's just how things work in games.

If you had your way, there wouldn't be premium pets and the people who worked hard on putting these cool elements into the game wouldn't be getting paid as much as they probably should be. I like supporting the people who used their time, effort, and creative power to entertain me. I also like shiny pets. So I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks to the people who spent time on it and give them job security. 

What?

My post had nothing to do with flaming the devs so I don't know why such a defensive post nor did I mention I was cheap and didn't want to pay.  My comment was made purely on what they said in the dev stream and they even asked people to come up with suggestions, hence my post.

I know they were planning to have visual evolutions for every pet and pet evolution which would mean multiple visual changes.  I suggest rather than picking a few pets to have all the visual evolutions (which is currently there plan) why not only have one visual evolution per pet.

Try not to be a fan boy next time and flame for the sake of flaming, thanks.

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@MoleyEyes quote:

I was suggesting that they would still get the upgraded stats and abilities, just that they wouldn't have new evolved forms.

Only the premium pets would have new evolved forms when they upgrade.

Same stats, just one looks fancier as it levels.

It's not giving any advantage over other players, it just looks nice for the people who pay for it. 

The players won't be losing out on any stats. The bonuses from pets isn't going to be any different from the premium pets because they'll still get abilities and upgrades, just no evolutions if that makes sense.

I'm just simply exploring the idea that only premium pets will get fancy new looks like the hero costumes do, abilities and stats are still normal.

Yer I get you, you have to admit though, that would be a huge disappointment. You spend all this time to evolve a pet and take it to the next level only for it to be cosmetic. I can't think of any game that would let you down like that aha. 

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@Glazy quote:

What?

My post had nothing to do with flaming the devs so I don't know why such a defensive post nor did I mention I was cheap and didn't want to pay.  My comment was made purely on what they said in the dev stream and they even asked people to come up with suggestions, hence my post.

I know they were planning to have visual evolutions for every pet and pet evolution which would mean multiple visual changes.  I suggest rather than picking a few pets to have all the visual evolutions (which is currently there plan) why not only have one visual evolution per pet.

Try not to be a fan boy next time and flame for the sake of flaming, thanks.

I think most of that was directed at me.  Not sure why they quoted you, but the response seemed more about what I was saying in regards to pet evolutions not being a purely cosmetic element in the game and thus unlikely to be premium content.

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