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PTSFP Paul

Attempting to settle the great RNG debate.

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@GetYourWetWipes quote:

REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS

I think if you could use smaller words you know, (English). you would see we agree. 

Sorry lol, The curse of my education.

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@gigazelle quote:

I know at this point everything here is anecdotal, but I've gone games where I've had 4-5 legendaries in a single match, and I've gone 5-6 entire games where not a single legendary dropped. Yes these were all incursion maps on Hard.

@gigazelle quote:

Garry's mod is a sandbox game - no progression, no RPG elements, no tower defense (unless someone has created one of these, which I have yet to see).

While I have no insight as to the interest levels of the people who participated in this experiment, the genres between the two games are nothing alike.

These two posts pretty much. A tiny sample of people from a completely separate genre of gaming who played for a very small amount of time and likely just didn't appreciate the RNG of the game. I restarted my hero deck again recently as I talked about in another thread and had no trouble at all progressing solo by using whatever dropped and my experience with tower defense games. If I had decided to do it in a group instead I probably would have fallen asleep with all the AFK'ing I'd be doing

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New players would greatly benefit from an in-game tutorial forcing them to place a certain way to see how things synergize and such...


Also some sort of in-game graphic to show how different towers and classes interact would be helpful to them I think


Proper play is more critical than over-gearing to brute force the game mechanics... also rng and hard caps on things are two seperate things.


Note - some of this may be in-game through the tutorial notes, but I am meaning a more in-depth approach to help new players begin the game with proper understanding.

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@BallsOut quote:

New players would greatly benefit from an ingame tutorial forcing them to place a certain way to see how things synergize and such...

That is pretty much the biggest issue for newer players at the moment, lack of information. I would imagine that Trendy are aware of the issue and a lot of the 'tutorials' we have at the moment are placeholders for something better in the future. There's still a fair amount of UI objects that have a 'Coming Soon' tag on them.

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@Kai Heilos quote:


@gigazelle quote:

I know at this point everything here is anecdotal, but I've gone games where I've had 4-5 legendaries in a single match, and I've gone 5-6 entire games where not a single legendary dropped. Yes these were all incursion maps on Hard.

@gigazelle quote:

Garry's mod is a sandbox game - no progression, no RPG elements, no tower defense (unless someone has created one of these, which I have yet to see).

While I have no insight as to the interest levels of the people who participated in this experiment, the genres between the two games are nothing alike.

These two posts pretty much. A tiny sample of people from a completely separate genre of gaming who played for a very small amount of time and likely just didn't appreciate the RNG of the game. I restarted my hero deck again recently as I talked about in another thread and had no trouble at all progressing solo by using whatever dropped and my experience with tower defense games. If I had decided to do it in a group instead I probably would have fallen asleep with all the AFK'ing I'd be doing

Garry's Mod specific to the group that I played with with these people actually resolved around an RPG style mod known as the garrys mod dayz mod.  the point again was not to take highly skilled and talented players and submit them to the current process but rather to take players who are interested in this genre but have no experience in the genre.  the importance of selecting people from a Garry's Mod community was the fact that Gary's mod is not a new game with highly intense graphics special effects and massively complex or interesting plot themes but rather an older game that still has an intense following because the people who typically play this game are players who will commit to a game that has an interesting premise and play consistently

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I agree that items are very lack luster other than finding the item with the right stat.

Now that there is literally nothing to chase other than DP/DS, there is no more side-grade item, no more items between upgrades. There is less upgrade than before, and for a RPG (or any progression game in general) it is bad.

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@SorakaPlz quote:

I agree that items are very lack luster other than finding the item with the right stat.

Now that there is literally nothing to chase other than DP/DS, there is no more side-grade item, no more items between upgrades. There is less upgrade than before, and for a RPG (or any progression game in general) it is bad.

The special stats? :p


@gigazelle quote:


@Gutu quote:

I barely ever complete a game without getting a legendary, are you sure you're playing end-game?

I know at this point everything here is anecdotal, but I've gone games where I've had 4-5 legendaries in a single match, and I've gone 5-6 entire games where not a single legendary dropped. Yes these were all incursion maps on Hard.

That use to be my reality, but in the latest patch i don't seem to find the 0 legendary run anymore i always gets at least one now (at least for the 3 forest maps) I mean there were few rare cases but it's not like pre-patch that i would get tons of runs without legendaries sometimes.

I guess it's just RNG being RNG. 

On a side note everyone seems to get the betsy legendaries but me :p i've only got 1 squire sword (cmon i don't even play squire at all!) while a person who always plays with me got 8 betsy legendaries..

Just to show how random the random this RNG is

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@PTSFP Paul quote:

Over the last few days I have been doing a series of tests on the drop quality and how its effecting new players entering the game.

I bought 5 copies of the game in the last week (your welcome Trendy)  for 5 players who never played dd1 or DDE or DD2.

I love this, OP you should be commended for your tenacity. Quite a fascinating idea, and an excellent way to obtain sample data. I had a friend recently have the exact same problem upon being introduced to dd2, and was lamenting the lack of any sort of tutorial system, and was quite lost at times when starting the game as someone with fresh eyes so to speak, i.e. no prior dd franchise knowledge.

Which is worrying, Trendy can do no wrong to the veterans, lets be honest, we're in it for the long haul. For this game to really flourish I think we need to be a little more accommodating to the next generation of dungeon defenders. Blaming RNG isn't good enough

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@Pendragon quote:

Which is worrying, Trendy can do no wrong to the veterans, lets be honest, we're in it for the long haul. For this game to really flourish I think we need to be a little more accommodating to the next generation of dungeon defenders. Blaming RNG isn't good enough

When it comes to the subject of this thread "drops aren't good enough", then we surely can and will continue to blame RNG, since many of us have beaten the early levels with whatever random items drop for us. 

When it comes to new players getting into the franchise and figuring out what they're supposed to be doing, all I can offer you is "it's pre-alpha". A lot of stuff is missing, core systems haven't been implemented, what has been implemented hasn't been fleshed out yet. I'm pretty sure we will see improvements to the tutorials and the UI information available.

On the subject of loot, I believe they said in previous dev streams they are working on re-working it

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thank you for all the intelligent feedback that I have received regarding this I I would request that anybody who is not light the original form post please do so so the Trendy might be more apt to look over this information. I have access to a marketing and sales professional in my family who is been helping me with marketing trends for this specific game and methodology and processes that might enhance the customer experience.  


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I would love to test out the early game, but the limited heroes stops me from doing that.

I am not going to delete my character so I can test out the early game and its difficulties.

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@SorakaPlz quote:

I would love to test out the early game, but the limited heroes stops me from doing that.

I am not going to delete my character so I can test out the early game and its difficulties.

I feel you everytime, tho i did delete many by now... i would have 10+ lvl 25s 

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The sample of people, as it's been said already, is really small to try and draw conclusions. Could just be a case of different strokes for different folks.

Just out of curiosity:

Did any of your group do any researching online about the game? Were they allowed or was there a stipulation saying they can't? 

How many maps did they fail on? Was it just 1 map that became a roadblock for them or were they having to fail each map once or twice before finally defeating it? Did they ever replay a map they've already beat previously? How did that attempt go? Easier? Harder? Equal difficulty? How many different characters did they play?

Besides gary's mod, do you know what their gaming backgrounds are? What genre do they prefer, how many games do they have say 400+ hours in, etc etc.

What would have made the game feel more rewarding in their own opinion? 


so much data that needs to be known before we can even begin to start forming a hypothesis. You've got my interest on this.


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Thanks for the info! We've received numerous pieces of feedback concerning the difficulty of our early-game, particularly for solo players. We also know that our New User Experience (tutorials, on-boarding) could use a ton of work. These are elements of the game that we're planning to improve.

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