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PTSFP Paul

Attempting to settle the great RNG debate.

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Over the last few days I have been doing a series of tests on the drop quality and how its effecting new players entering the game.

I bought 5 copies of the game in the last week (your welcome Trendy)  for 5 players who never played dd1 or DDE or DD2.

I created a new squire without the benefit of any gear dropped pre or post patch and played thru the lower levels with these people. (mostly groups of 3 or 2).  I did not at any time build in any way other than how they determined I should build my part of the defenses.

I was able to take the following conclusions from my experience thus far.

1.) Drops have been nurfed to the negative effect of anyone not VERY familiar with tower defense games in this style.

2.) Several levels are nearly impossible for early players even in groups of 2 or 3.

3.) All 3 of the 5 players quit playing after 5 - 7 total hours of playtime stating the game was not rewarding enough and progressing was too hard.

Suggestion: Move the gear drops back to pre-patch level and allow the community to develop from that setting rather than its current version. 

Thank you for your time.

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I'm a bit confused about this, back to what patch? The drop rates were boosted up on foundation 1 and haven't been decreased ever since. Or have I missed some changes made on the low lvl ratios.


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@Bunniecake quote:

I'm a bit confused about this, back to what patch? The drop rates were boosted up on foundation 1 and haven't been decreased ever since. Or have I missed some changes made on the low lvl ratios.


that is correct, no logged/warned change happened, so they didn't directly change it since foundation 1.

to OP:

2. which levels? 

3. Where did you come up with these numbers?

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@Gutu quote:


@Bunniecake quote:

I'm a bit confused about this, back to what patch? The drop rates were boosted up on foundation 1 and haven't been decreased ever since. Or have I missed some changes made on the low lvl ratios.


that is correct, no logged/warned change happened, so they didn't directly change it since foundation 1.

to OP:

2. which levels? 

3. Where did you come up with these numbers?

4. Gutu the cutest? 

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@Bunniecake quote:

I'm a bit confused about this, back to what patch? The drop rates were boosted up on foundation 1 and haven't been decreased ever since. Or have I missed some changes made on the low lvl ratios.


the drop quality is significantly lower at this point then when I first started playing in foundation 2 there are very very very heavily reduced occurrences of damage power and Damage speed spawning on gear together  additionally the change in the that spawn on different pieces of gear has negatively affected the ability of certain characters to create certain defenses within their inventory. boost enhancing gear is almost non-existent.  speed and damage gear only spawns on to or three items as opposed to potentially 4 or 5 different items. prior to the pets patch

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PTSFP Paul  That sounds very familiar to my own experiences and others'(friends) experiences right after patch when the actual playing time is still extremely low to have a proper/valid opinion without the RNG factor making tricks on you.

Have you backed up these statements with.. let's say 100 hours of farming in there so you have nullified the RNG factor?

The less chances the more the RNG can hit you.

I'd say this requires some long term testing to see if it really is as you say. Or is this just individual user experience caused by RNG that can be nullified by playing more.


For example, when foundation 2 came out, the first 8 games I didnt get a single legendary drop and my own feelings were "WTF is this nerf AND WHYWHYWHY?!?!?" as I continued farming I noticed it's still the same and at some point I felt like legendaries were raining over me as I got upgrades on everything in couple days. <-- pure RNG trickyness.

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It might as well be true that boost % appearance rate is now lower since the effect can only appear on trinket slot items, but DP and DS ratios are exactly the same. But the boost % is still appearing I myself have seen tons of drops with the boost % already. Even it exists only on 1 particular item slot.

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@Gutu quote:


@Bunniecake quote:

I'm a bit confused about this, back to what patch? The drop rates were boosted up on foundation 1 and haven't been decreased ever since. Or have I missed some changes made on the low lvl ratios.


that is correct, no logged/warned change happened, so they didn't directly change it since foundation 1.

to OP:

2. which levels? 

3. Where did you come up with these numbers?

1.)Thus far the first 5 levels.

2.) well the 5 copies of the game I came up with by purchasing them on Steam.

the five players I came up with by pulling a community list from my playtime for garrys mod and selecting 5 people from there.

the 5 to 7 hours to quit time I took by recording the amount of time to teach person played and the time did each person that quit told me they were no longer interested in the game and for what reason.

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@Bunniecake quote:

PTSFP Paul  That sounds very familiar to my own experiences and others'(friends) experiences right after patch when the actual playing time is still extremely low to have a proper/valid opinion without the RNG factor making tricks on you.

Have you backed up these statements with.. let's say 100 hours of farming in there so you have nullified the RNG factor?

The less chances the more the RNG can hit you.

I'd say this requires some long term testing to see if it really is as you say. Or is this just individual user experience caused by RNG that can be nullified by playing more.


For example, when foundation 2 came out, the first 8 games I didnt get a single legendary drop and my own feelings were "WTF is this nerf AND WHYWHYWHY?!?!?" as I continued farming I noticed it's still the same and at some point I felt like legendaries were raining over me as I got upgrades on everything in couple days. <-- pure RNG trickyness.

I wholeheartedly agree on all. However it is very difficult to maintain a respectable population of testers when the game itself does not draw the eye of a new player. case in point most of the players became overly frustrated by their inability to progress or advance and at their defenses ineffectiveness against very low level maps.

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There isn't enough data here to see what the exact problem is, but OP brings a very valid point.  3 out of 5 players quit within 5-7 hours.  Perhaps the beginning levels need to be looked at?  I've seen allot of patch focus on end game, but not allot on beginning game.  New players can't expect to know what combos to use and how to work together.

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Agree. Early progression though difficult, but doable by experience player. It can be very difficult in the hand of inexperience player. Even more so in players who know nothing about DD.

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I'm going to attempt to bring a fresh testing group in on payday I will attempt to go mid level with this group by forcing an advancement protocol and see how the reaction is through there

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When I started playing solo right before pets and dragons, I had to stay 2-3 character levels ahead of the map suggestions for the first 3-4 levels. Also I have only seen 2 legendary pieces of gear drop in 2-3 weeks of playing end game, which is low from my understanding.

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@spartan316 quote:

When I started playing solo right before pets and dragons, I had to stay 2-3 character levels ahead of the map suggestions for the first 3-4 levels. Also I have only seen 2 legendary pieces of gear drop in 2-3 weeks of playing end game, which is low from my understanding.

I barely ever complete a game without getting a legendary, are you sure you're playing end-game?

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I'm not at the incursions, yet but I'm on 25+/25++ and not getting any legendary items. It's really irksome because I am getting really crappy gear so I can't really complete any of the levels solo anymore.

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@spartan316 quote:

When I started playing solo right before pets and dragons, I had to stay 2-3 character levels ahead of the map suggestions for the first 3-4 levels. Also I have only seen 2 legendary pieces of gear drop in 2-3 weeks of playing end game, which is low from my understanding.

This seems consistent with my findings so far.  For some reason the community is screaming nurf and re-roll and it's killing new players. I would love to see trendy

revert to the pre-patch gear drop stats to test the effect.

I am willing to test out of my pocket if they are willing to support

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I am not sure if it is drops or learning curve but I agree.  Early maps put off new players. 

They need to adjust the content at early levels (On Easy Mode only) so a new player with relatively no experience with DD is capable of beating the maps in the campaign and gaining the sense of accomplishment / progression.  Otherwise the only people playing this game will be DD veterans.

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I have deleted all my heroes after the pet & dragons patch came out and have maxed out huntress, squire and monk. In my opinion the early levels were the funniest ones. The level progress was quite easy and the loot was not too much or too complicated so new players should not be confused too much. What I miss is a proper tutorial or NPC-like explanation about everything but as you played with some friends that should not have been the problem because you already knew the game. ^^

Of course this impression is just my personal opinion and it is good to hear about different opinions.


Are the friends, you brought to the game, basically interested in tower defense or character progression games? I have never played gary's mod so I cannot compare anything.


About the legendaries: I play from 25+ to 25+++ about 1 or 2 maps a day and my average legendary drop rate is 1 per map.

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this is like standing in front of a slot machine and attempting to find a pattern...

the players complaining about loot, are tired of 15 tiers of rng you know the ppl that actually play....

the players screaming about rewards are the players going threw 1000 drops a day

the players screaming about rewards are the ones that re no longer getting rewards.

save yourself some money and get yourself on the steam friends and family program its rewarding....


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@GetYourWetWipes quote:

this is like standing in front of a slot machine and attempting to find a pattern...

the players complaining about loot, are tired of 15 tiers of rng you know the ppl that actually play....

the players screaming about rewards are the players going threw 1000 drops a day

the players screaming about rewards are the ones that re no longer getting rewards.

save yourself some money and get yourself on the steam friends and family program its rewarding....


in response to your post please reread the original post the goal was not to bring people that are a hundred percent Mayer with this style gaming but rather people who are unfamiliar but interested in this tablet gaming and to see what their experience would be.  

too often we are evaluating the success or failure programs based entirely upon people that have thousands of followers in this specific game title in mode without testing or evaluating or the potentially new individuals coming in for the first time.

my test thus far combined with data collected by other individuals have begun to show a pattern where new players experiences are very poor related to adjustments made at higher levels.  the newest version of R N G appears to be distorted The Dropper ace to the point where newer players are unable to function without the significant amount of experience for help from experienced players.

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in the end my attempt is to create balance across the board previously before the creature patch the drop seemed to be significantly more balanced for players coming through the game at this point that balance seems to be broken my interest is to see if I can persuade the developers to reverse that change and attempt to ascertain whether or not that is the cause of the balance distortion.

thus far my findings are consistent with this modification being the overall cause of new player distress.


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REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS REWARDS

I think if you could use smaller words you know, (English). you would see we agree. 

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@Gutu quote:

I barely ever complete a game without getting a legendary, are you sure you're playing end-game?

I know at this point everything here is anecdotal, but I've gone games where I've had 4-5 legendaries in a single match, and I've gone 5-6 entire games where not a single legendary dropped. Yes these were all incursion maps on Hard.

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@Dreizehn quote:

Are the friends, you brought to the game, basically interested in tower defense or character progression games? I have never played gary's mod so I cannot compare anything.

Garry's mod is a sandbox game - no progression, no RPG elements, no tower defense (unless someone has created one of these, which I have yet to see).

While I have no insight as to the interest levels of the people who participated in this experiment, the genres between the two games are nothing alike.

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