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knubey

Boost Aura Feedback

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I just took the pet survey and in the optional part I addressed this tower, but I want to see where the rest of the community sits on it.

NOTE: This is NOT in regards to pre-patch gear increasing boost aura higher than it should be.  Please leave these comments for another thread.

Now that the note is out of the way, let's get to the meat of the post.  Currently, as it sits at it's lowest point it's only a 25% boost to a tower.  This means that if four towers are affected by it, we've essentially built a fifth tower but spread out the damage across the four towers.  It doesn't sound like much, but the more towers within the boost aura the more benefit you're getting (DU, mana spent for upgrades, etc.)  So, as a balancing point, we have to approach boost tower in two different ways.

  1. First Option, we pretend boost aura doesn't exist and balance monster health/damage to tower/hero damage.
  2. Second option, we know boost aura exists and buff monster health/damage to compensate for the fact that boost aura exists.

Both of these options leave much to be desired.  If you approach it from the first option, anyone using the tower is more efficient at farming, so you're required to use boost aura.  If you approach it from the second option, you're required to use boost aura or severely outgear the map or else you won't be able to finish the map.  

Both of these options get more apparent when we're looking at next patch with Onslaught (Survival Mode.)  If the game is balanced around the first option, people will use the tower to complete further waves than they would without it so everyone is required to run it in a build.  If the game is balanced around the second option, people will use the tower to be able to beat waves their build/gear is supposed to be able to handle.  Either way, it's a forced tower in the builds which lowers diversity (in my opinion.)

So the question then becomes, is this tower what the game needs?  Should Trendy take a look at this tower for a replacement now before they're too far into development and people are used to needing a monk in every hero deck?  Should they leave it alone?  What are some ways that we can change the tower (or suggestions on replacement tower effects) so that it's not required in builds or "wrong" if you're not using it?

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A "needed defenses" is usually a hot topic around these forums, there have been so many. Should 1 single target be so good that it's almost a requirement to have it? I mean i didn't particularly hated having to builder 1 buff beam + aura stacks in every map as a base for every build, but now that i think of it, it's not really what i want for DD2.

I think a necessary defense is against the balance the game was aiming for.

I think the game should focus the boosts on the combinations, right now the way i see it, the boost aura is basically a tower that combos with every damaging tower and it's very powerful, however unlike a combo, it isn't as cooler.

So I really think that a making a tower that has oil so that the fire damaging defenses are better are boosted, and more combos added so that instead of an overall tower that buffs all, using 2 towers together would be better because they basically buff each other by creating a combination. 

I would fine it much more interesting, for combos to be necessary than boost aura to be necessary since more combos and more ways to do these combos are getting added.

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Yes it will stay like this, Monk will be in our decks and it's fine. You can also play with friends who will have Monk instead of you in deck so what is actually the problem? You use monk anyways for skyguard always... and if you don't you do it wrong xD

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@Machiavell quote:

Yes it will stay like this, Monk will be in our decks and it's fine. You can also play with friends who will have Monk instead of you in deck so what is actually the problem? You use monk anyways for skyguard always... and if you don't you do it wrong xD

I guess my game is broken, 'cause so far i've been able to do everything without a single skyguard tower :P

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[[25805,users]]

This isn't just about having a monk in the group.  Sure with 4 players, there's a good possibility that in 12 characters there's a monk there for boost aura.  What this discussion is really trying to be about is that it's a forced tower in each "group."  Skyguard is not similar in the same vein.  Tons of maps are cleared without it.

This is to be a discussion on whether Trendy should have to balance around boost aura being a tower.  It's a tower that they either need to decide is always going to be in every build, at which case they'll have to buff monsters to compensate for that fact (which leaves solo players in the dust with a 3 character cap, but deck size is not the topic for this.)  Or they'll ignore the tower when dealing with balance and approach each tower as if it isn't getting boosted, at which point players trying to find the most efficient way are going to be building it all the time anyway to increase clear speed (and in Survival modes, go further than their gear would actually let them.)

I'm with [[43252,users]] on this one.  Putting something that directly combos (via elementals) is a much more interesting idea. 

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How about this:

1 defense in boost aura: 100% boost (double damage)
2 defenses in boost: 50%
3 defenses: 33%
4: 25%

etc etc.

This would make it so the boost aura would always have the same DPS as if it was its own tower.

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Another good suggestion.

I should note that my post doesn't mean that we have to remove it.  As [[31834,users]] shows, there's ways to not make it omnipotent.  I am still a fan of Gutu's suggestion though.  More towers that can combo together would be neat.  

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While I find gigazelle's suggestion far less interesting than a new tower with combo potential, I still like it much more than the current implementation. I do see a problem with it however, in that upgrading the buffed tower would still result in the buff tower accounting for a significantly larger dps boost than any other tower in the game, relative to it's cost.

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@gigazelle quote:

How about this:

1 defense in boost aura: 100% boost (double damage)
2 defenses in boost: 50%
3 defenses: 33%
4: 25%

etc etc.

This would make it so the boost aura would always have the same DPS as if it was its own tower.

that would be balancing the tower, why would it be useful? If you're low in terms of geographic place or can't place a tower in a good angle, the boost aura will make the towers it buffs count as an extra tower.

But then again the drain system would have to be changed to not drain with more towers.

but it could def be balanced around that idea. 

I can see something like this happening.

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Can we let them get down the equations for gear boosting before we start suggesting that they write more complicated C++ code?  The fact is they struggled to make equipment that properly works with the current boost system.  Over complicating it much more would probably lead to very serious implications.

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Okay so, let's see here. Ah, the problem is the boost aura is boosting damage of the around towers (4 towers boosted = a 5th tower) Now tell me, is this a bad thing? I mean think about it, Monk has 2 attack towers (SkyGuard & Lightening Aura), with this logic, wouldn't a boost aura pretty much count as a 3rd attack tower in the end? Thus, making boost aura a really nice support tower which I believe they were aiming for on the monk in the first place. Just my thoughts(:

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@22ben100 quote:

Okay so, let's see here. Ah, the problem is the boost aura is boosting damage of the around towers (4 towers boosted = a 5th tower) Now tell me, is this a bad thing? I mean think about it, Monk has 2 attack towers (SkyGuard & Lightening Aura), with this logic, wouldn't a boost aura pretty much count as a 3rd attack tower in the end? Thus, making boost aura a really nice support tower which I believe they were aiming for on the monk in the first place. Just my thoughts(:

The problem is that the boost is going to be around 40%, so boosting 1 tower makes boost useless.

But boosting 20 towers makes the boost equal to 8 towers. Making turtle builds much better than any other build and making the tower feel too strong.

With that being said the issue is that:

a) the game would be too easy if they ignore the boost aura because people would use the boost aura.

b) the game requires you to use the boost aura to complete, so it becomes a necessary defense.


Note: When i said 40% it was an average we'll probly be seeing 50% ( this is ignoring the boost aura special stat bug'cause with 100% boosts it's a insane double number towers, so a boost on 20 towers counts as 20 more)  

anyway that's the issue for me.

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I can see the problem, it seems they have been taking this into consideration, especially since getting the special stat is only available on the Relic with a max of 20%(Max of a 45% boost aura). If you really want to do the whole 10 towers in one boost, then you loose out on tower positioning, which could also hurt you(Then again this also has to take into consideration what map is being played) 

All in all, I do see the problem with onslaught and the boost auras. Right now it doesn't seem to be as bad, but looking into the future i can see some problems of tower stacking.

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This is currently how the boost aura works (increase on DPS per tower):
AiI6cq0.png

Disclaimer: I did the math using base and max boost value (+20% from accessory slot) on rank 1 aura. The tower DPS is based on relative ( 1 tower = 100% dps).

Currently there isn't any mechanics offering this much utility and monk is only class that has access to this kind of power.

Should this kind of game mechanic be seperated from class (e.g. a trinket that could be attached on tower) or could the damage be shifted from boosts to combo system?

Edit: fixed the math on max boost value, thanks to knubey

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The max of 45% boost is under the assumption that it's additive instead of multiplicative.  However, it's multiplicative.  Hence why [[43252,users]] said that we'll probably be seeing 50% boost aura towers.

For the math: 

1.25 * (1 + Boost Aura percentage) =

1.25 * (1 + .20) = 

1.25 * 1.2 = 1.5


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The only reason I hated boost was that I felt it was necessary. However, that's not the case. It does seem to make things easier for under geared players and faster for players with good gear. I played around yesterday with no boost and although I felt a little tense just knowing how much dps I lost. Things went way better than expected and was not nearly as challenging as I thought it would be.

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@keona quote:

The only reason I hated boost was that I felt it was necessary. However, that's not the case. It does seem to make things easier for under geared players and faster for players with good gear. I played around yesterday with no boost and although I felt a little tense just knowing how much dps I lost. Things went way better than expected and was not nearly as challenging as I thought it would be.

care to explain how the build was, did you happen to have old gear (aka bugged elec op auras?) 

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[[74509,users]]

As Gutu asked, what gear are you using? What's your ilvl? What's your DS/DP?  Do you think you cleared faster, slower, or the same? Do you know you cleared faster, slower, or the same? By thinking vs knowing, did the clear time feel faster/slower/the same, and did you get times on the clear speed with and without boost aura.

As you've stated, without boost aura it wasn't challenging which means that Trendy is (more than likely) approaching balancing as boost aura not existing.  Of course, you could severely outgear the content too.  I never said it wasn't possible without boost aura, I'm saying that in a world of min/maxing and shared information people will end up approaching boost aura as a requirement.

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Gutu i posted my vid of wave 4 on betsy incursion.

https://www.dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/119570/betsy-incursion-examples


nope the gear was legit except for my apprentice relic which still had range increase. Instead i chose not to use the skill sphere(ranged increase) to balance the extra range from gear.


set up was pretty basic:

1x LA/geyser combo for electrocute per lane 

1x earthshatter knock-up combo with skyguard per lane 

1x frost tower per lane 

*2x flametowers per lane with intersecting sectors of fire for added firepower.

**magical barriers for boss waves in order to slow down the ogres.


*added extra flame towers to cover the additional ogre spawn

** 3 magical barriers were set up in the second ogre lane


edit: i'm going to do this again and get betsy on video since I screwed up and thought I was recording when i wasn't.

edit 2:

apprentice : 1158 dp / 1250 ds

monk : 1262 dp/ 1076 ds

huntress: 922 dh/ 1129 ds

edit 3:

the game does take longer but it's seemed pretty negligible. The good thing about boost is that it does give that comfort zone that allows players to experiment more and make mistakes that won't cost them the game. The bad thing is that players, or maybe just me, feel almost dependent on it  once they hit end game.

the clear time was slower and it felt slower, but the game overall was more entertaining since I couldn't just afk with confidence :p


edit 4:  Nekrin  soloed betsy HM incursion with less than optimal gear thx to boost. which makes me see that boost may not be that bad after all if you look at the big picture. Yes, a well geared player using boost will have an easier time overall, but isn't this basically the reward for spending the time to gear out your heroes? For those under geared with the use of boost and some strategy they can also play endgame. It might not be the most efficient way to farm gear but it does provide a sense of satisfaction.

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@Gutu quote:


@22ben100 quote:

Okay so, let's see here. Ah, the problem is the boost aura is boosting damage of the around towers (4 towers boosted = a 5th tower) Now tell me, is this a bad thing? I mean think about it, Monk has 2 attack towers (SkyGuard & Lightening Aura), with this logic, wouldn't a boost aura pretty much count as a 3rd attack tower in the end? Thus, making boost aura a really nice support tower which I believe they were aiming for on the monk in the first place. Just my thoughts(:

The problem is that the boost is going to be around 40%, so boosting 1 tower makes boost useless.

But boosting 20 towers makes the boost equal to 8 towers. Making turtle builds much better than any other build and making the tower feel too strong.

With that being said the issue is that:

a) the game would be too easy if they ignore the boost aura because people would use the boost aura.

b) the game requires you to use the boost aura to complete, so it becomes a necessary defense.


Note: When i said 40% it was an average we'll probly be seeing 50% ( this is ignoring the boost aura special stat bug'cause with 100% boosts it's a insane double number towers, so a boost on 20 towers counts as 20 more)  

anyway that's the issue for me.

Limit the amount of Towers it can boost. Causing Turtle Builds to be situational. Since auras can only Boost... 4-8 towers (Rank 1-5) Extra towers placed within the Aura wont be boosted. Players will have to choose wisely about where they place towers in that manner.

Towers Traps and Auras can all have their own limit that don't affect the count for the others.

Towers: 4

Traps: 2

Auras: 2

Then you'd still be able to place 4more towers at Rank 5...

Any tower is Necessary for any build. Just because one Aura is pretty much universal doesn't mean it is too OP. Most people use Lightning Aura's as well. Essential for keeping Ogre's at bay players usually need some sort of barricade. Which they use the squire for.

Boost Aura has it's uses and limitations. (Can't overlap with other Auras) Put more limitations on it.

Or

The more towers placed within the Aura makes it's Damage Proc weaker. Nobody wants to just Boost 1 tower. If they have it at 100% Damage Proc but place 8 Towers. 2auras and 2 traps within the boost, then it'll drop down to... 50%?? Random numbers.

Also the higher the Tier of the tower the higher the Drain causing it to proc even lower damage?? Of curse upgrading it will still enable it to grow in Damage. 

This will allow more player based customization with their builds instead of simply looking for Gear that strengthens the Damage output on the Boost Auras, and turtle builds will end up putting out less damage from the Boost Aura, but depending on the towers there will be more targeting one Mob.

It is a very good support item. It helps people who don't have enough DPS to have a slight easier time. which is what it is for.

End Game.

This is far from end game. It is our current end game, but i dont' consider this end game at all. The difference between beating the current end game maps with and without Good Gear is very noticeable. Which means Mobs are too strong but not enough for the extra boost, or Towers are too weak until boosted.

To me it just means that there are in need of more Mobs. Ones that don't directly attack so they stay away from your Defenses, and they boost the defense of Mobs within a certain area. Some with Shields Etc. Causing players to have to react and deal with said mobs themselves or their Boosted towers wont mean anything.

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