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Bonzai101

Rewarding Gameplay

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Personally at present I don't feel like the gameplay is rewarding enough and I'm pretty close to hanging up this game until the next patch.

So I'd like to see other peoples suggestions (and feel free to rag on mine if you like).

Here we go, some suggestions from me:

- Hard Betsy should have a guaranteed Legendary drop.
- Hard Malthius should have a guaranteed Legendary drop (If he doesn't already).
- All hard bosses below this level should have a 50% drop rate on legendaries (At least).
- All hard mode end chests should be Legendary.
- Daily quests should actually be rewarding, atm they are a joke, yes wyvern tokens to, maybe change it to a week to get an uber.
- Pets damage stat should be linked to their empower (More you play with them the stronger they get).
- Pets damage should scale with gear level of your character to make their damage more than a tickle.
- More Difficulty (How this is accomplished however.........)

Disclaimer :
I play at the incursion level and have for a while now, I've had zero upgrades this patch, so that's where my perspective is coming from.

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[[76540,users]]


- Pets damage should scale with gear level of your character to make their damage more than a tickle.

As they have explained on the latest devstream, these are baby pets and that's why they don't deal anything but as they will evolve in the future their damage becomes something far greater.

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@Johada quote:

Malthius what? and also don't you think it will be to easy to get legendaries?

In a 4 player game on Incursion hard regular ogres already have something close to 100% legendary drop. And you get like.. 3-4 ogres per map? 


Giving a boss with way more hp and more gimmicks to complete, a higher legendary ratio than a regular ogre is something i'm perfectly fine with. But that's just what it's like in the games current state, not sure how the next patch regarding drops/stats etc will influence the drop ratios of betsy/ogres etc. 

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@Bunniecake quote:

Bonzai101


- Pets damage should scale with gear level of your character to make their damage more than a tickle.

As they have explained on the latest devstream, these are baby pets and that's why they don't deal anything but as they will evolve in the future their damage becomes something far greater.

Thanks for the clarification, I've had a bit of a skip through the devstream but didn't watch the whole thing.

As for the legendary drops, more drops, more chance of getting something that you can actually use..................... stats that are pretty useless currently, ability power, hero damage, defense health etc. so..... most of them.

[[67783,users]]
I'm probably at less than 50% with RNG for Betsy dropping a legendary, which is very very disappointing, especially with her having 10 million hp to work through now (Takes a while and some co-ordination to do legit).

Also for anyone new replying, if drops aren't one of the main things you get satisfaction from, what would you get satisfaction from?

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The biggest thing for me is end of level cheats. I know when I completed Akatiti or Tinks or Sky City it was all about the end drops and the anticipation of a good one.

Currently chests are a massive anticlimax.

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Rewarding Game play..

Betsy dropping 1 token per kill. Maybe not now though since there the boot glitch. It would make sense though.. She drops legendary 30% of the time and 99% of the time its junk. Let us get some monster token from killing her! I think that's a suitable reward for game play no? If you want to unlock Uber and get a Betsy egg earlier, you have to farm, farm and farm her.

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@MrCrave quote:

Rewarding Game play..

Betsy dropping 1 token per kill. Maybe not now though since there the boot glitch. It would make sense though.. She drops legendary 30% of the time and 99% of the time its junk. Let us get some monster token from killing her! I think that's a suitable reward for game play no? If you want to unlock Uber and get a Betsy egg earlier, you have to farm, farm and farm her.

This is a great idea.

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@MrCrave quote:

Rewarding Game play..

Betsy dropping 1 token per kill. Maybe not now though since there the boot glitch. It would make sense though.. She drops legendary 30% of the time and 99% of the time its junk. Let us get some monster token from killing her! I think that's a suitable reward for game play no? If you want to unlock Uber and get a Betsy egg earlier, you have to farm, farm and farm her.

+1 but...............

What would you think of the Betsy egg not being in the shop and it just being a rare drop from her?

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Fine as it is, drops are ok. Those boxes at wave 5 though, they suck big time. Getting a powerful item after an incursion run are not fair.

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@MrCrave quote:

Rewarding Game play..

Betsy dropping 1 token per kill. Maybe not now though since there the boot glitch. It would make sense though.. She drops legendary 30% of the time and 99% of the time its junk. Let us get some monster token from killing her! I think that's a suitable reward for game play no? If you want to unlock Uber and get a Betsy egg earlier, you have to farm, farm and farm her.

This is great but she still needs to drop a legendary more often then she does. I've taken her out quite a few times  on incursion difficulty, but she still barely gives me any legendaries. All I want is that beautiful bow that she drops. ;-;

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[[76540,users]] I like it being in the shop. It gives those who aren't interested in Uber (Me) or who already gotten Uber (non right now) something to work towards. 

[[59453,users]]  I agree. I mentioned in many other threads farming Betsy isn't the best farming option. I do think her drop needs a buff, but only after the boot glitch and special stats from old equips are removed. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to everyone.

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rewards rewards rewards ill i have to say is "REWARDS" small rewards big rewards medium sized rewards.

rewards X infinity! please reward us for playing this game!

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Difficulty. People might play for rewards, but that only goes so far. Give us something to sink our teeth into. Something that makes us rage, something that makes us come up with complex or insane strategies. Bring back nightmare mode. None of this pansy hard-mode stuff that anyone can beat in a couple of tries. It's obtuse, and really just doesn't provide anything of interest. You beat the maps on Hard, then what? What's left? Gear grinding on maps that are already way too easily beat? What's the point? There isn't a reason to grind for gear because you can already beat the hardest content within days of picking the game up. Give us the giant jump in difficulty that was Insane to Nightmare. Make me WORK for it, and I will be your slave. I will play for hours trying out different ways to beat a map, grinding out gear to beat it, and weeks on end for that satisfaction of beating it on something so difficult. -That- is how you retain players. None of this time gated content. Gate things behind skill and difficulty.

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@Xurtan quote:

Difficulty. People might play for rewards, but that only goes so far. Give us something to sink our teeth into. Something that makes us rage, something that makes us come up with complex or insane strategies. Bring back nightmare mode. None of this pansy hard-mode stuff that anyone can beat in a couple of tries. It's obtuse, and really just doesn't provide anything of interest. You beat the maps on Hard, then what? What's left? Gear grinding on maps that are already way too easily beat? What's the point? There isn't a reason to grind for gear because you can already beat the hardest content within days of picking the game up. Give us the giant jump in difficulty that was Insane to Nightmare. Make me WORK for it, and I will be your slave. I will play for hours trying out different ways to beat a map, grinding out gear to beat it, and weeks on end for that satisfaction of beating it on something so difficult. -That- is how you retain players. None of this time gated content. Gate things behind skill and difficulty.

You bought into pre-alpha expecting what?  working survivals? nightmare difficulty ? lot of content? Give them time. Look at how BEAUTIFUL are the maps they released with the last patch. That alone should tell how much work was poured into the making of these maps only. Not to talk about all the other content + survival mode and you so desired nightmare mode... And it's all added to bugs that are being fixed after the last big patch.

If it was a note or advice, you are right.
If it was complaint, you cannot be more wrong.

Cheers.

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@Xurtan quote:

Difficulty. People might play for rewards, but that only goes so far. Give us something to sink our teeth into. Something that makes us rage, something that makes us come up with complex or insane strategies. Bring back nightmare mode. None of this pansy hard-mode stuff that anyone can beat in a couple of tries. It's obtuse, and really just doesn't provide anything of interest. You beat the maps on Hard, then what? What's left? Gear grinding on maps that are already way too easily beat? What's the point? There isn't a reason to grind for gear because you can already beat the hardest content within days of picking the game up. Give us the giant jump in difficulty that was Insane to Nightmare. Make me WORK for it, and I will be your slave. I will play for hours trying out different ways to beat a map, grinding out gear to beat it, and weeks on end for that satisfaction of beating it on something so difficult. -That- is how you retain players. None of this time gated content. Gate things behind skill and difficulty.

lots of fire and red hot passion for dungeon defenders thereman bravo i want to add you. love it!  i have to ask though..

you didnt mention being rewardedor finally beating those maps on insane or nightmare mode difficulties.....?

and ugh...umm...would you do all that if those maps didnt have rewards? i mean i know the answer is yes cause what kinda game would this be with out getting rewarded for that content right i mean lol cmon yeah haha. lol omgoodness

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@Seph quote:


@Xurtan quote:

Difficulty. People might play for rewards, but that only goes so far. Give us something to sink our teeth into. Something that makes us rage, something that makes us come up with complex or insane strategies. Bring back nightmare mode. None of this pansy hard-mode stuff that anyone can beat in a couple of tries. It's obtuse, and really just doesn't provide anything of interest. You beat the maps on Hard, then what? What's left? Gear grinding on maps that are already way too easily beat? What's the point? There isn't a reason to grind for gear because you can already beat the hardest content within days of picking the game up. Give us the giant jump in difficulty that was Insane to Nightmare. Make me WORK for it, and I will be your slave. I will play for hours trying out different ways to beat a map, grinding out gear to beat it, and weeks on end for that satisfaction of beating it on something so difficult. -That- is how you retain players. None of this time gated content. Gate things behind skill and difficulty.

You bought into pre-alpha expecting what?  working survivals? nightmare difficulty ? lot of content? Give them time. Look at how BEAUTIFUL are the maps they released with the last patch. That alone should tell how much work was poured into the making of these maps only. Not to talk about all the other content + survival mode and you so desired nightmare mode... And it's all added to bugs that are being fixed after the last big patch.

If it was a note or advice, you are right.
If it was complaint, you cannot be more wrong.

Cheers.

Nah, I was commenting solely in the vein of 'This is what I would recommend as a way to get player retention'. I bought into pre-Alpha and got exactly what I expected. :P I've been pretty pleased about most of the things they've done, and ecstatic about the response we've seen from the devs in general as well as the communication we've had.

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@GetYourWetWipes quote:


@Xurtan quote:

Difficulty. People might play for rewards, but that only goes so far. Give us something to sink our teeth into. Something that makes us rage, something that makes us come up with complex or insane strategies. Bring back nightmare mode. None of this pansy hard-mode stuff that anyone can beat in a couple of tries. It's obtuse, and really just doesn't provide anything of interest. You beat the maps on Hard, then what? What's left? Gear grinding on maps that are already way too easily beat? What's the point? There isn't a reason to grind for gear because you can already beat the hardest content within days of picking the game up. Give us the giant jump in difficulty that was Insane to Nightmare. Make me WORK for it, and I will be your slave. I will play for hours trying out different ways to beat a map, grinding out gear to beat it, and weeks on end for that satisfaction of beating it on something so difficult. -That- is how you retain players. None of this time gated content. Gate things behind skill and difficulty.

lots of fire and red hot passion for dungeon defenders thereman bravo i want to add you. love it!  i have to ask though..

you didnt mention being rewardedor finally beating those maps on insane or nightmare mode difficulties.....?

and ugh...umm...would you do all that if those maps didnt have rewards? i mean i know the answer is yes cause what kinda game would this be with out getting rewarded for that content right i mean lol cmon yeah haha. lol omgoodness

Rewards are certainly a part of it. You beat incredibly difficult content, you get rewarded for it. I think that's more an aspect of the difficulty and less the goal, though. After all, if you're already on the hardest content, better items are only going to do so much for you. I think striving for something is more important than the end result, in this case. That is, the climb to 'Nightmare' or whatever the case might be. Refining your builds. Farming TO do that difficulty. And then the main reward would finally be completing content few other people have managed. Being amongst the first to do so. Cheering with your friends for your wins and lamenting your losses. Obviously, gear and special rewards should be a part of that experience. 

It's a lot like raiding. Yes, a lot of people do raid for the gear. But what is the gear for? The gear is to move on to even harder difficulty. The gear itself isn't (always) the reward. The reward is beating it. Knowing you're strong enough. Working at it until you can do it flawlessly, and then hopefully moving on to even more difficult things. Once you've beaten every map on every difficulty.. well. You're out of things to do, really. A 2% increase in power on a rare item or not.

Thus why I'm rooting for a difficulty spike that will take people a significant amount of time and effort to chew through. (Bugs notwithstanding)

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Really like the difficulty angle, so that's getting added to the main post!

Question is, how would we do this for Betsy without just increasing her damage and HP?

Some ideas:
- Betsy's AI using the flame ability to hit stumps randomly (but not to much).
- Betsy's AI making it so not all hero's need to be on the platform, priority targeting of the closest heros (Some are doing repairs as required and supporting lanes).
- During the Betsy fight having the possibility of mini bosses pushing lanes.
- Mixing flying enemies in with ground enemies mean some towers (e.g flames, cannon, ballista) will have split dps, this is already in.
- Mini bosses / ogres usually take alot of agro (splitting tower dps)
- Making some enemies immune to cc (Knockup effects etc.)
- Having randomized resistances per round on the harder difficulties.

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one very simple thing for an example to make the game feel rewarding....have all mini bosses spawn at the end of a map so it doesn't feel like trash mob grinding.

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I'm not max level yet, but I'm already seeing the difficulty curve being more of a flat line. I've always loved the idea of MAKING the hero use their attack to stop a wipe. For example, there's a minion (like the dynamite kobold) that just runs through defences unless your Huntress/Apprentice/Monk make a long range head shot. Or the Squire has to make a block on the minion.

Ideas like this that make us use hero abilities / skill to win the day will provide more enjoyment (and less AFK builds).

Edit: Think this sums up idea: https://youtu.be/U20VIrMZxzM

Carry on. apprentice_small.png

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@GetYourWetWipes quote:

one very simple thing for an example to make the game feel rewarding....have all mini bosses spawn at the end of a map so it doesn't feel like trash mob grinding.

I don't know that I particularly like this idea, but a facet of it could be interesting. There are minibosses, sure. Why not have Lieutenants of whatever boss spawn on the last wave, or in the last two waves? Solely on the harder difficulties, mind. Normal and hard might just have the boss itself, and then the next two difficulties could have some sort of Lt. mobs pushing the lanes. Something in between a boss and a miniboss, styled after whichever boss is on that map. IE, Betsy would have Wyvern Lieutenants. After all, you get to the point where you can take out a boss and a lot of the time your towers going down isn't the issue - it's the DPS race on the boss. Having to peel people off to keep a closer eye on that might add increased challenge. Of course, this does make it more difficult/impossible to solo. 

They don't even need to be damage or tower focused. Having a couple more mobs aiming solely for the players, or buffing units, or whatever might make it more interesting. Maybe a 'Rally' sort of ability, where mobs from one lane are moved to another, forming a hard push for a moment. I don't rightly know. It's incredibly difficult finding a sweet spot between 'too hard' and merely 'difficult'. I just tend to lean on the 'harder the better' side of the fence. If it takes me months to farm and prepare for a difficulty? Hey, I'm pleased with that!

It took my DDI crew -forever- to be able to do Nightmare Eternia Shards. Misty was particularly challenging for us. Weeks of agonizing over it, trying new strategies, building up our gear.. and when we finally, finally downed the boss and completed the map? Nothing compares to that. Everyone was incredibly excited, yelling in skype and everything else. Very much a 'YEAH!' moment. Those are lacking in DDII currently. Nothing takes long to complete, and when a boss is downed it's more 'Huh. She didn't drop a Legendary. Oh well, do it again.' and less 'Holy crap! That was amazing!'. I know you're trying to keep a good medium guys, and not make content too hard - particularly for the new players. But I say why not? Not every piece of content has to be designed to be easy. If it takes people a long time to complete? Oh well. When they -do- beat it, it will feel all the sweeter.

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What about having another very rare very valuable tier of gear..................

@T-Chimp
Brilliant, part of this would be making secondary stats that people pretty much don't want atm viable e.g hero damage.

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@Bonzai101 quote:

What about having another very rare very valuable tier of gear..................

@T-Chimp
Brilliant, part of this would be making secondary stats that people pretty much don't want atm viable e.g hero damage.

Not a bad idea, but then the issue comes back to what would people use it for? I just have a hard time believing that a lot of people would want to grind out very rare pieces of gear solely to have it. Even if the stats are 20% better, when you can easily curbstomp the hardest map in the game now.. *shrug* Of course, there is something to be said for being able to say you have the best gear, or preparing for when there is harder content. I know they've mentioned a higher tier of gear at one point, but it sounded like something that was further on down the line sadly. Course, as it is they're having problems balancing items and such.

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