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Skill Spheres (Pets & Dragons)


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@T-Chimp quote:

I personally think the skill sphere system can be tweaked to be really good. The main problem I have at the moment all you need to get the spheres is gold. I would much prefer a structured system of spheres that are unlocked as you level (with one standard Uber sphere at achieving 25 - YAY!), then a higher tier of spheres attained through skill or play based objectives. These objectives could be beating a final wave of a map in a certain time, getting to level XX on an onslaught map, beating Betsy without Skyguard towers (FWAT?) etc. etc.

I just think I need my skills to be unlocked via my play directly, rather than a currency.

Other than that, I think the general idea of the spheres is a solid foundation. 

Carry on.

This guy gets it 8)... as long as dailys are not involved im happy.

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@Valthejean quote:

Spheres seem like a really great idea for an end-game design; it's something to add on a lot more specifics to our build.

With that in mind, however, it destroys the leveling experience.  I couldn't even do the new maps yesterday because I had to grind out enough gold for the spheres.

As something solely for endgame, it's wonderful.  As something that *replaces* a talent or spec system for leveling, it's disappointing.  Gold sinks are fine when you're dealing with players who have a lot of gold to spend.  They aren't pleasant for new players.

In a few games I can easily get enough gold, if you sell your loot you will get gold, if you keep it or use it to upgrade items you will not gain gold, gold is never an issue in dd2 its somewhat pleasant unlike in dd1.

You will have to reach certain levels to use them anyway so by then you will have the gold, its perfectly balanced.

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Small spheres are Good.

Medium Spheres are okay. 5% chance to stun is pretty sweet, movespeed is good too, crit damage..etc most of them are good but I can't help but be disappointed when I use Small Spheres then go on to Medium spheres and see how it didn't actually get better it just got different.

Large Spheres are mostly bad and deterring. I.E. Primary skill increases secondary skill damage on monk and vice verse or LA damage has a 25% chance to deal more damage. I read that as  here's another button to mash and here's another unreliable multiplier.

Uber Spheres sound good, but I only have 25 token.

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When I first heard the skill spheres mentioned, I genuinely thought we were going to have to pick and choose between them. Seeing its current implementation, I'm starting to like my first impression more than the current implementation; plus it would provide quite a bit more give/take.

The concept I saw behind it is this: you can either have your sphere sheet full of a bunch of small spheres, several medium spheres, a couple large spheres, or the uber. Something along the lines of this:

  • Small sphere: 1 point
  • Medium sphere: 2 points
  • Large sphere: 5 points
  • Uber sphere: 10 points

You would only be allowed to have 10 points worth of spheres, but you could mix and match them however you'd like. Granted the spheres would need to be rebalanced around this (small spheres would have to be reduced to +30 instead of +100), but this would easily allow players to choose between a raw stat gain, special customizations, or a little bit of both.

Plus you'd be able to have 2 large spheres, which a lot of people here have been asking for.

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@gigazelle quote:

When I first heard the skill spheres mentioned, I genuinely thought we were going to have to pick and choose between them. Seeing its current implementation, I'm starting to like my first impression more than the current implementation; plus it would provide quite a bit more give/take.

The concept I saw behind it is this: you can either have your sphere sheet full of a bunch of small spheres, several medium spheres, a couple large spheres, or the uber. Something along the lines of this:

  • Small sphere: 1 point
  • Medium sphere: 2 points
  • Large sphere: 5 points
  • Uber sphere: 10 points

You would only be allowed to have 10 points worth of spheres, but you could mix and match them however you'd like. Granted the spheres would need to be rebalanced around this (small spheres would have to be reduced to +30 instead of +100), but this would easily allow players to choose between a raw stat gain, special customizations, or a little bit of both.

Plus you'd be able to have 2 large spheres, which a lot of people here have been asking for.

Hmm, not a bad idea however I must still be far too tired as I still don't quite understand what exactly is being changed.
Do we still have to purchase them with gold? Do we still have to unlock the Slots with gold? Sounds like a yes to both.
From what I gathered from it, it sounds like you're just giving us more spheres with a general limit on how many that can be equipped. Please correct me if I'm wrong

10 Points worth of Spheres? That's basically 1 Uber Sphere and that's it. In the eyes of the general player base, that will seem worse than what we have currently. Being able to have 10 Small Spheres equipped isn't going to make up for the lack of everything else. (even moreso when reduced to +30)

I'm not trying to "steal" your idea here just tweaking it slightly. Why not instead of a 10 point limit, you bring the limit based on something towards the players actual level? So, if they're 25 they can have 50 points. 50 points - 2 Ubers (10p each) = 30 Points. 30 Points - 2 Large (5p each) = 20 Points. 20 Points - 4 medium (3p each) = 8. 8 Points - 4 Small (2p each) = 0.

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"Points" would automatically unlock as you leveled up. Personally I don't like there being tiered spheres, so we would simply have several of each, all giving +30 stats to an area. Whether spheres are available for gold or not is up for debate in my proposition.

The point of specialization is the whole give and take part - that's why I was thinking ubers would take all 10 points. I'd also consider putting said ubers on par with non-uber defenses + stat spheres, so players could viably choose between a raw stat increase and changing the way a defense works.

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@LJMjollnir quote:

Oh god no... dont suggest extra types of currencys... and your suggesting more dailys.. that is just retarded... Dailys suck if you want to see why go play WoW.. dailys have ruined that game for me and many of my friends... having a requirement of HAVING to play everyday.. doing the same stuff over and over it totally boring..

Ubers should be from some form of challenge or perhaps yeah maybe a reward for beating X level in endless.. dailys are NOT the answer in my opinion... Make it skill based... maybe just maybe. add in some lower form that can be achieved via a daily for people that cant beat the challenge..

@Hecate quote:Next it is known that you are going to be adding more Ubers. I suspect at least one uber for every tower plus ubers that tweak every hero ability and maybe even ones that change our basic attack mechanics. All I can say to this is do not lock new Ubers behind wyvern tokens. Adding more ubers to the same time lock would be a huge mistake. Especially if you don't reduce the cost of the wyvern Ubers. Make all future ubers earned through a different content time sink. A different currency behind a different daily that can be done at the same time as the current wyvern content would be a good example.

You don't want suggestion of extra types of currencies and yet the next thing you quote suggests different currencies? You claim that suggesting more dailies is "just retarded" and yet you suggest giving people a daily that can't beat "the challenge". And that doesn't seem strange to you at all? Just wondering.

Let me get this straight, so WoW is somehow ruined by dailies? Alright, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. You don't like having the requirement to have to play everyday? It's simple, then don't. No one is placing a gun to your head and saying play everyday. They simply give you incentive to do so and that's it. A game without incentive is a game that's dropped play wise. We get it, you don't like WoW. That's fine but this is a Free-to-play game. It's obvious that there will be things about it you won't like. You need to compromise instead of shutting down everything that comes up.

Also, if you don't like having to do dailies as a requirement then does that mean you hate dailies in Dungeon Defenders 2? Because that's exactly how they work here. In order to get Wyvern Tokens, YOU HAVE TO DO the dailies. You have to do dailies daily to even get closer to buying anything with Wyvern Tokens. There is no other way to get Wyvern Tokens besides dailies. And it can take you anywhere from 15 days to 60 days to even get an Uber from the Adventure Shop thing.

Make it skill based? Tell me, what skill is there in being carried through waves of Endless? Don't act like that isn't going to come up in the future. It will be a challenge wall that people will skip by begging for help or being helped by friends/random people. And there is also the issue of gold sinks no longer being a thing that way.

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@gigazelle quote:

"Points" would automatically unlock as you leveled up. Personally I don't like there being tiered spheres, so we would simply have several of each, all giving +30 stats to an area. Whether spheres are available for gold or not is up for debate in my proposition.

The point of specialization is the whole give and take part - that's why I was thinking ubers would take all 10 points. I'd also consider putting said ubers on par with non-uber defenses + stat spheres, so players could viably choose between a raw stat increase and changing the way a defense works.

If they aren't tiered then there is no meaning to ever have to purchase another Sphere (unless say, a new one is added via patch/update). It's no longer a "gold Sink" if you only need to buy one type once and forget about it forever. However, needing to buy one every few levels makes it a gold sink; even if you're going to wait until max level to buy them. You're not supposed to like Gold Sinks, you're supposed to tolerate them.


@SorakaPlz quote:

Hoping to see actual variation in spec node, see nothing out of the ordinary.

Currently every size node carry different thing, and this a very boring in a customization perspective. Once people figure out what the best in slot is (ie. for small nodes, it is basically defense speed and defense power, medium is range), unless newer version of the same thing is out or a game changer is out, nothing will change for anyone.


However, if every node can have the same spec, it would have a bigger range of customization (although it may also make planning a spec much more challenging and less noob-friendly). Under the new system, a small node is 1/3 of a large node and a medium node is 1/2 of a large node.

So for example, the current range node is a medium node, having 2 110% is a total of 121% (1.1*1.1=1.21). Under the new system, each small range node will give 7% and a large range node will give 21%.

Currently a builder character has very little choice in the medium node mainly because the choices are limited and very underwhelming. Builders are almost forced to choose range for their medium nodes, a mixture of R7 defense speed and R7 defense power with either one of the R6 depending on their stats.

Under the next systems, if a builder choose to have a shorter range, they can have 2 small range node, and a R7 medium defense speed and a R7 medium defense power, plus a small node of extra freezing chance or whatever they want.

If they feel that the large node is not for their build (for example a cannonball squire, PDT huntress, skyguard monk, for whatever reason), they can use the large node for extra stats so their single purpose character can get stronger without emptying a large node.

Spec Nodes do not exist anymore. Spec Nodes was the OLD system not the NEW system.

UI-1024x576.jpg
The image here is what Spec Nodes was/is. This is no longer in the game. What you're talking about is the Skill Sphere System and Skill Sphere Slots.

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@MasterOfLazyness quote:

You don't want suggestion of extra types of currencies and yet the next thing you quote suggests different currencies? You claim that suggesting more dailies is "just retarded" and yet you suggest giving people a daily that can't beat "the challenge". And that doesn't seem strange to you at all? Just wondering.

Let me get this straight, so WoW is somehow ruined by dailies? Alright, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. You don't like having the requirement to have to play everyday? It's simple, then don't. No one is placing a gun to your head and saying play everyday. They simply give you incentive to do so and that's it. A game without incentive is a game that's dropped play wise. We get it, you don't like WoW. That's fine but this is a Free-to-play game. It's obvious that there will be things about it you won't like. You need to compromise instead of shutting down everything that comes up.

Also, if you don't like having to do dailies as a requirement then does that mean you hate dailies in Dungeon Defenders 2? Because that's exactly how they work here. In order to get Wyvern Tokens, YOU HAVE TO DO the dailies. You have to do dailies daily to even get closer to buying anything with Wyvern Tokens. There is no other way to get Wyvern Tokens besides dailies. And it can take you anywhere from 15 days to 60 days to even get an Uber from the Adventure Shop thing.

Make it skill based? Tell me, what skill is there in being carried through waves of Endless? Don't act like that isn't going to come up in the future. It will be a challenge wall that people will skip by begging for help or being helped by friends/random people. And there is also the issue of gold sinks no longer being a thing that way.

Firstly.. for some reason it wouldnt let my type after the quote so it was placed under my text... (gimmie a forum where i can type [quote] [/quote]).. it was a direct reply to that guy.. Extra currencys to manage is bad.. not only is it annoying to have to collect them.. its bad in programming sense aswell. having to find places to put extra UI features to show currencys.. Extra complexity is not always a good thing.


Dailys.. yes it is an opinion.. i say that in another post around here some place... Dailys are terrible.. you miss one you feel so behind... having a requirement just feels wrong.. for instance ever since that new daily for tokens has been here ive never actually finished it... AND i have played the level... didnt get quest complete (Forsest Crossing)... its been there the whole time.. sure my characters are only level 22.. it just feels bad..


That leads onto your next paragraph.. yes I hate the current feel of DD2... as mentioned above im still 15-60 days away from getting an Uber.. that just feels totally wrong to me.. bring back Talents allow us our skill selection for actually reaching a new level... Extra complexity is not always a good thing.... If we are going to keep Skill spheres some other system of obtaining them would be nice... i dont always get a chance to log in.. Kids n stuff.. and i know im not the only one.. and im not casual gamer either if i can game i am ;).. i was also in one of the top Raiding guilds Oceania for around 6 years.. (the joys of no kids... ahhhh).. Im thinking to the future with this.. right now yeah there is only 2 dailys..

here is a quote "Daily quests were introduced during Burning Crusade in Patch 2.1 for the Netherwing, Ogri'la, and Sha'tari Skyguard factions, with a system-enforced limit of 10 daily quests completed each day. The same few daily quests were available every day for the factions, and this quickly led to complaints about the repetitive, grindy nature." http://wow.gamepedia.com/Daily_quest

Some people love em.. i personally dont..


Skill base.. Sure there will be people that get carried.. that happend in DD1.. thats fine if you have friends that can carry you.. public game unless i did the setup i never seen one get very far at all ;) and there is a whole other area of achievement based "skill" choices that can be used aswell ;)

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@LJMjollnir quote:


@MasterOfLazyness quote:

You don't want suggestion of extra types of currencies and yet the next thing you quote suggests different currencies? You claim that suggesting more dailies is "just retarded" and yet you suggest giving people a daily that can't beat "the challenge". And that doesn't seem strange to you at all? Just wondering.

Let me get this straight, so WoW is somehow ruined by dailies? Alright, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. You don't like having the requirement to have to play everyday? It's simple, then don't. No one is placing a gun to your head and saying play everyday. They simply give you incentive to do so and that's it. A game without incentive is a game that's dropped play wise. We get it, you don't like WoW. That's fine but this is a Free-to-play game. It's obvious that there will be things about it you won't like. You need to compromise instead of shutting down everything that comes up.

Also, if you don't like having to do dailies as a requirement then does that mean you hate dailies in Dungeon Defenders 2? Because that's exactly how they work here. In order to get Wyvern Tokens, YOU HAVE TO DO the dailies. You have to do dailies daily to even get closer to buying anything with Wyvern Tokens. There is no other way to get Wyvern Tokens besides dailies. And it can take you anywhere from 15 days to 60 days to even get an Uber from the Adventure Shop thing.

Make it skill based? Tell me, what skill is there in being carried through waves of Endless? Don't act like that isn't going to come up in the future. It will be a challenge wall that people will skip by begging for help or being helped by friends/random people. And there is also the issue of gold sinks no longer being a thing that way.

Firstly.. for some reason it wouldnt let my type after the quote so it was placed under my text... (gimmie a forum where i can type [quote] [/quote]).. it was a direct reply to that guy.. Extra currencys to manage is bad.. not only is it annoying to have to collect them.. its bad in programming sense aswell. having to find places to put extra UI features to show currencys.. Extra complexity is not always a good thing.


Dailys.. yes it is an opinion.. i say that in another post around here some place... Dailys are terrible.. you miss one you feel so behind... having a requirement just feels wrong.. for instance ever since that new daily for tokens has been here ive never actually finished it... AND i have played the level... didnt get quest complete (Forsest Crossing)... its been there the whole time.. sure my characters are only level 22.. it just feels bad..


That leads onto your next paragraph.. yes I hate the current feel of DD2... as mentioned above im still 15-60 days away from getting an Uber.. that just feels totally wrong to me.. bring back Talents allow us our skill selection for actually reaching a new level... Extra complexity is not always a good thing.... If we are going to keep Skill spheres some other system of obtaining them would be nice... i dont always get a chance to log in.. Kids n stuff.. and i know im not the only one.. and im not casual gamer either if i can game i am ;).. i was also in one of the top Raiding guilds Oceania for around 6 years.. (the joys of no kids... ahhhh).. Im thinking to the future with this.. right now yeah there is only 2 dailys..

here is a quote "Daily quests were introduced during Burning Crusade in Patch 2.1 for the Netherwing, Ogri'la, and Sha'tari Skyguard factions, with a system-enforced limit of 10 daily quests completed each day. The same few daily quests were available every day for the factions, and this quickly led to complaints about the repetitive, grindy nature." http://wow.gamepedia.com/Daily_quest

Some people love em.. i personally dont..


Skill base.. Sure there will be people that get carried.. that happend in DD1.. thats fine if you have friends that can carry you.. public game unless i did the setup i never seen one get very far at all ;) and there is a whole other area of achievement based "skill" choices that can be used aswell ;)

Hmm, interesting problem with the quote system. I've had no issues with it. If I do, I just try and get the Text marker to go below the quote box. Maybe it might have to do with the browser? I'm not sure.

I don't see how managing currencies is bad. It's not even hard. All you do is play and you gather them up. You already have to manage gear and soon pets. More things to interact with as you play isn't really that bad of a thing. You don't always need to display all currencies at all times. Just simply have a window we click to show us them all in one go. Since the devs love scrolling bars so much, they can have a menu that scrolls and allows them for infinite currencies. Problem solved. It's not complexity, it's allowing for longevity.

Playing the level and not getting it to complete is a failure in the design of how completion works. Also, doing the level and not getting the reward is a BUG and not representative of dailies as a whole. Of course doing the requirements and not being rewarded is bad but that has nothing to do with dailies. Dailes could not be here and say, all you had to do was beat Betsy to get a Wyvern Token. If every time you did it and wasn't rewarded with a token it would feel the same, unrewarding.

As I've said before to hoyhymho, "I always dislike the idea of suggesting they roll back the game to a previous system. It's always a short sighted response to me. "I don't like it, so changed it back" is all I hear." So, you can't play everyday, that's fine, it just means you need to play more when you can (and you've stated already that you do). I've also mentioned before that people who play more than another person will always have that as an advantage. It's kind of how it should be. If you play for 3 weeks and gather all of these items and spheres and another player comes and plays for half the time or less, you'll feel like your effort would be devalued somewhat. Lets take your example of being the 6th best raiding guild. I'm sure that took quite a deal of time and effort. Now imagine if another guild does everything your guild managed to do in that time or in a great deal less time. Wouldn't that devalue it? I think it would. The complaints about dailies in WoW are the same complaints they got about quests, zones, reputations and most things in general. It's an MMO, it always has a grind to it. It always has something repetitive to it. It's entire existence in staying alive is keeping people playing for as long as humanly possible. Grind-nature is what allows that to happen.

Also, the time it takes to get an Uber isn't really the fault of dailies. It's the devs trying to give us goals, pad out the game and introduce something new. The main reason why it feels so terrible is their design philosophy of making things stupidly high and then scaling them back down due to complaints/feedback.

Fact is, while some of us don't like it, dailies do as intended. They get people coming back to it. You don't like them, that's fine. There is always something we don't like but we have to tolerate; like gold sinks.

Dungeon Defenders hasn't really been about skill. It's been about strategy and bigger and bigger numbers. I've never felt like I needed to be extremely skilled at the game to clutch out a win on something. I've done it in Diablo 3, where I was dead and revived with 15 seconds left to kill the boss and I downed the Rift Guardian with 1 second remaining. Or in WoW where I was an undergeared DPS that watched my team just get wiped on a boss in a Heroic, I said, nuh-uh and busted out all my stops to manage to down him just after I died and before he reset. But then again, maybe that's just me.

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@gigazelle quote:

When I first heard the skill spheres mentioned, I genuinely thought we were going to have to pick and choose between them. Seeing its current implementation, I'm starting to like my first impression more than the current implementation; plus it would provide quite a bit more give/take.

The concept I saw behind it is this: you can either have your sphere sheet full of a bunch of small spheres, several medium spheres, a couple large spheres, or the uber. Something along the lines of this:

  • Small sphere: 1 point
  • Medium sphere: 2 points
  • Large sphere: 5 points
  • Uber sphere: 10 points

You would only be allowed to have 10 points worth of spheres, but you could mix and match them however you'd like. Granted the spheres would need to be rebalanced around this (small spheres would have to be reduced to +30 instead of +100), but this would easily allow players to choose between a raw stat gain, special customizations, or a little bit of both.

Plus you'd be able to have 2 large spheres, which a lot of people here have been asking for.

To tweak your idea a little bit...

Each small node cost 4 blocks, each medium node is 6 blocks and each large node is 12 blocks.

The proposed spec is going to be a 6x6 grid, it would be able to fit in the 3 S node, 2 M node, and 1 L node

To visualize this, here is a simple view of the my proposed spec system filling with all of the current spec without uber.

AP1KelF.png

You will be able to have 9 small node, or 6 medium node, or 3 large node, or a mixture of different node in this mix.
Although I would argue that there isn't really that much variety at this design. It is however something that we can work on. For example by add a fragment of a node to fill in 1x2 boxes so we can have an odd number of medium node, node of a different shape, etc.

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I don't see how managing currencies is bad. It's not even hard. All you do is play and you gather them up. You already have to manage gear and soon pets. More things to interact with as you play isn't really that bad of a thing. You don't always need to display all currencies at all times. Just simply have a window we click to show us them all in one go. 

Its not overly a bad thing.. but it can be a pointless thing. Just imagine you are doing you quests collecting currency. you manage to buy everything that currency has to offer.. nothing else new for a few months you continue to do the quests and gather currency not a problem right.. i can spend it when the next stuff comes out.. Introducing Currency Version 2.0.. you can buy new things but you need the new currency you feel bad because you have "wasted" time doing the other quests for currency V1.0...

the fact of the matter is i'd like to see DD2 go to just gold and gems as the currencys.. you buy what you need with gold and cosmetic stuff you buy with gems. there is no need to bring anything else into it... some people can only play for 1 or 2 days a week having things tied down to a time gating system is bad for those people. it doesnt bother someone who can play 24/7. Swap it around to no time gates noone is upset.. some people might get a bit Jelly of someone that can play 24/7 with all the fancy gear day 1.. but the other players that can only play in bursts can get that chance to catch up.

Removing wyvern tokens for ubers is a step towards greater fairness to all players. turn the wyvern tokens into gems and players have a chance to earn real money currency (even if it is a really really slow rate)

I've also mentioned before that people who play more than another person will always have that as an advantage. It's kind of how it should be. If you play for 3 weeks and gather all of these items and spheres and another player comes and plays for half the time or less, you'll feel like your effort would be devalued somewhat. Lets take your example of being the 6th best raiding guild. I'm sure that took quite a deal of time and effort. Now imagine if another guild does everything your guild managed to do in that time or in a great deal less time. Wouldn't that devalue it?

I know what you are saying.. but less people should be offended in this case.. sure that guy got it quicker then me.. but hell he must of done alot of grinding good for him as opposed to "i wish i didnt go on that holiday and miss 2 weeks of getting tokens now im miles behind and there is nothing i can do to catch up".. Blizzard actually had a good solution to this when LFG dungeons had dailys.. they allowed you to get all your dailys for a week done in 1 day. with that kind of system brought over to DD2 then maybe.. just maybe this would be acceptable.. but right now there is NO catchup method once you are behind you will forever be behind and that is the major problem.


Dungeon Defenders hasn't really been about skill. It's been about strategy and bigger and bigger numbers. I've never felt like I needed to be extremely skilled at the game to clutch out a win on something. I've done it in Diablo 3, where I was dead and revived with 15 seconds left to kill the boss and I downed the Rift Guardian with 1 second remaining.

i dunno... there are some Trophys from DD1 that required some skill (or extreme luck) off memory ;).. tunnel of love ??(one of the only ones i never got around to doing...).. and yep there has been times even in DD2 where the boss mob has spawned and ive lost nearly every single defence left with an ogre pounding at the objective.. my first Bettsy kill the royal egg was down to 5% health and i was screaming at the whole team to get at her before she made another pass... (wish i knew the geyser and skyguard layout before then...)

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@LJMjollnir quote:"having things tied down to a time gating system is bad for those people"

Removing wyvern tokens for ubers is a step towards greater fairness to all players. turn the wyvern tokens into gems and players have a chance to earn real money currency (even if it is a really really slow rate)

Well, when you put it like that, I understand where you're coming from. The whole gating thing also makes a large amount of sense. However, I don't see the need to remove it. It is simpler to just allow things to be gained at a much faster rate. If we don't have to wait days to get a Small Sphere or Large Sphere, then why should we wait for an Uber Sphere? Because it's supposed to be this big fancy Sphere that changes gameplay? If I get it and to me it is lackluster then there is no point in such a huge time sink.

Also, there was talk of allowing you to gain Spheres by natural play. Adding in such a thing would allow players two means of getting what they want. Either you play and you can find it or you grind for it.

I know what you are saying.. but less people should be offended in this case.. sure that guy got it quicker then me.. but hell he must of done alot of grinding good for him as opposed to "i wish i didnt go on that holiday and miss 2 weeks of getting tokens now im miles behind and there is nothing i can do to catch up".. Blizzard actually had a good solution to this when LFG dungeons had dailys.. they allowed you to get all your dailys for a week done in 1 day. with that kind of system brought over to DD2 then maybe.. just maybe this would be acceptable.. but right now there is NO catchup method once you are behind you will forever be behind and that is the major problem.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me but it doesn't really do much to solve the issue of things taking too long. It also doesn't help give a time sink. All it does it allow the person to do a weeks worth of grinding in a day, that means the forums will have people complaining about nothing to do or nothing worth doing anymore and how they're OH SO bored.

As for the skill thing, eh, I still don't see that as skill. It was luck and teamwork. But no matter. You're free to believe as you wish. I don't see the need for false skill things to be added. It's always been about Dungeons, Loot and tough bosses.

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Also, there was talk of allowing you to gain Spheres by natural play. Adding in such a thing would allow players two means of getting what they want. Either you play and you can find it or you grind for it.

If they do allow the items to drop.. sure i dont have a problem with that .. as long as its not 1:1000000000 chance of a drop ;).. something reasonable.. but if it doesnt well you have the option of grinding out the time gate.

All it does it allow the person to do a weeks worth of grinding in a day, that means the forums will have people complaining about nothing to do or nothing worth doing anymore and how they're OH SO bored.

Then that is their problem.. if it is done correctly it makes boths sides happy.. you can grind out 1 a day .. or do all 7 in one day ;).. this way just allows for people that cant get online every day a chance at keeping up and not feeling so bad for missing a day... doing them all in 1 day and complaining there is nothing to do seems like a non issue to me.. but missing out and never catching up is a huge problem.

As for the skill thing, eh, I still don't see that as skill. It was luck and teamwork. But no matter. You're free to believe as you wish. I don't see the need for false skill things to be added. It's always been about Dungeons, Loot and tough bosses.

same as killing a D3 boss with 1 second left ;)... ive done that a few times myself.. just pointing out similaritys ;).. i would say there is more skill in DD2 then D3.. D3 is pure luck in most aspects.. gotta get the right drops... DD you need to plan out the build.. everything else between them is very similar.. Drops.. avoiding big attacks, knowing when to retreat n heal.. kiting bosses.. etc etc.. anyway this is getting way off topic now..

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@LJMjollnir quote:

Also, there was talk of allowing you to gain Spheres by natural play. Adding in such a thing would allow players two means of getting what they want. Either you play and you can find it or you grind for it.

If they do allow the items to drop.. sure i dont have a problem with that .. as long as its not 1:1000000000 chance of a drop ;).. something reasonable.. but if it doesnt well you have the option of grinding out the time gate.

All it does it allow the person to do a weeks worth of grinding in a day, that means the forums will have people complaining about nothing to do or nothing worth doing anymore and how they're OH SO bored.

Then that is their problem.. if it is done correctly it makes boths sides happy.. you can grind out 1 a day .. or do all 7 in one day ;).. this way just allows for people that cant get online every day a chance at keeping up and not feeling so bad for missing a day... doing them all in 1 day and complaining there is nothing to do seems like a non issue to me.. but missing out and never catching up is a huge problem.

As for the skill thing, eh, I still don't see that as skill. It was luck and teamwork. But no matter. You're free to believe as you wish. I don't see the need for false skill things to be added. It's always been about Dungeons, Loot and tough bosses.

same as killing a D3 boss with 1 second left ;)... ive done that a few times myself.. just pointing out similaritys ;).. i would say there is more skill in DD2 then D3.. D3 is pure luck in most aspects.. gotta get the right drops... DD you need to plan out the build.. everything else between them is very similar.. Drops.. avoiding big attacks, knowing when to retreat n heal.. kiting bosses.. etc etc.. anyway this is getting way off topic now..

Lol, "then that's their problem". Oh how the shoe can fit so many feet. Careful my friend, these kinds of words apply not only to what you want it to. If you catch my drift.

:< But I was dead... and-and I revived and killed the bossy. It was a feat of strength if there ever was one. >.> But alright, I see where you're getting at.

Anywho, you're quite correct about being off topic so from now on, let us remain on topic. ^_^

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@MasterOfLazyness quote:

If they aren't tiered then there is no meaning to ever have to purchase another Sphere (unless say, a new one is added via patch/update). It's no longer a "gold Sink" if you only need to buy one type once and forget about it forever. However, needing to buy one every few levels makes it a gold sink; even if you're going to wait until max level to buy them. You're not supposed to like Gold Sinks, you're supposed to tolerate them.

The point of skill spheres is hero specialization/customization, not a gold sink. There are a lot better places where a gold sink can be implemented.

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I personally hate that the uber spheres takes defender tokens. I want my customization and i find it wrong that we have to spend around a month just getting 1 uber sphere for 1 character. I also dont like that the uber spheres have a very lacking description, so there's no way i can be sure of what each one does. They should have a description so i know if wasting a months worth of farming time on the thing will actually be a waste or not >.<

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@gigazelle quote:


@MasterOfLazyness quote:

If they aren't tiered then there is no meaning to ever have to purchase another Sphere (unless say, a new one is added via patch/update). It's no longer a "gold Sink" if you only need to buy one type once and forget about it forever. However, needing to buy one every few levels makes it a gold sink; even if you're going to wait until max level to buy them. You're not supposed to like Gold Sinks, you're supposed to tolerate them.

The point of skill spheres is hero specialization/customization, not a gold sink. There are a lot better places where a gold sink can be implemented.

It's more like two birds with one stone. You get customization and a much needed Gold Sink.
There is a lot better places? I think having a gold sink for getting the spheres is alright. Having to unlock the slots with gold is foolishly dumb though.

There is a lot better places where a gold sink can be eh? Name 6. And in order for it to classify as a "better" gold sink, it needs to be something people would generally be more okay with than having to pay for Spheres. (This is more of a joking response, however I am interested in what you would think is a better spot)

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@Jojozityjo quote:

I personally hate that the uber spheres takes defender tokens. I want my customization and i find it wrong that we have to spend around a month just getting 1 uber sphere for 1 character. I also dont like that the uber spheres have a very lacking description, so there's no way i can be sure of what each one does. They should have a description so i know if wasting a months worth of farming time on the thing will actually be a waste or not >.<

I find all things should have either a helpful tool tip or description. In my opinion, next to the UI being user friendly, it should be the second thing added. People always require additional information. When that additional information is ONLY available from Threads on Forums or from fellow players, there is seriously something wrong.

I honestly felt the same way as you that I took a lot longer of a post to explain exactly why I dislike such an unrefined system. Currently one of its flaws is time taken versus reward value. If it takes me more or less a months worth of time then the item in question better be so stupidly good and fun to use, if not, then it's not worth the effort.

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I think that daily quests should always be something to speed up progression, and never to slow it down. Right now, unlocking uber spheres is only possibly by spending a lot of days doing daily quests, which is frustrating for people spending a lot of time playing and making no progress towards their uber spheres with most of that time. It's also frustrating for people who can only log in one or two days each week.

Betsy tokens should be dropping every time Betsy is defeated, with daily quests simply offering a little extra incentive for people to log in for a little while each day that they are able to.

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@Folly quote:

I think that daily quests should always be something to speed up progression, and never to slow it down. Right now, unlocking uber spheres is only possibly by spending a lot of days doing daily quests, which is frustrating for people spending a lot of time playing and making no progress towards their uber spheres with most of that time. It's also frustrating for people who can only log in one or two days each week.

Betsy tokens should be dropping every time Betsy is defeated, with daily quests simply offering a little extra incentive for people to log in for a little which each day that they are able to.

Agreed with this post.

Time gating advancement is a terrible, awful thing. Please remove the time gating from this system (and the game). Let players play at their own pace, not when you tell them they should be playing. As a player, that just makes me not want to play your game at all.

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This was probably mentioned already, but DPS Huntress got butchered by this change.  Friend of mine used to be able to kill the ogre who spawned on the third wave of ramparts incursion hard with his huntress only--no other allies or towers--before it reached 2/3 of the way to the main core.  He can't even bring it under 1/4 now thanks to the removal of the ability to use both long range and the bonus charge shot proc, much less how low their values are now..

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I must confess, I was about to buy the collector's edition, but the current implementation of "Betsy" tokens is way too gated.


I suggest rewards on any Kill above a certain difficulty (So it it can ground for those who want to) with bonus coins for dailies.

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Ok Guys. After i got my first Uber Sphere i have to say something about it.

The Uber Lightning Strikes Sphere
mirhjyh3.jpg

First of all here are my Stats:
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The Uber Sphere get as it says a HUGE amount of dmg boost but of the cost of Single Target.
So here are some Screenshots for better explain what it means:

Lightning lvl 1 without Uber:
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Lightning lvl 1 with Uber:
ndpj3csv.jpg

Lightning lvl max without Uber:
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Lightning lvl max with Uber:
zn5qj8eu.jpg


So at the first look, this is a amazing dmg boost, BUT (and that is why i think this Uber is useless). I have tested it in Wyren Den Incursion Hard together with the Geysir Trap from the Archer:


For every shot the Uber loose ~ 3%-4%. This means after 10 Hits (after 10secs with 1sec attack speed) the Sphere have lost 40% from 100%. So the Lightning Strike now looses so fast HP that you cant realy use it effective. You have to run from one to an other and repair, repair, repair and repair... So you also have to upgrade the Lightning Strike as fast as possible for more HP. But also with 200% it looses so fast HP that still run and repair. And in fact that it only hit one target you have to build a lot of more Lightning Strikes, wich means more to repair. It is nearly impossible to kill effective a group of monster with it. For single target ofc it is strong. But realy, the only one wich get killed effective with this Sphere are the Bosses. For all others it is useless.


So here my Ideas:

1) Take away the %HP of it so it cant be destroyed. Because today it is easier to defend with the normal Lightning Strike than with the Uber, wich should not be the sense of the Uber i think.
This first sounds to OP but i had play a long time to get one UBER and it should be an insane Upgrade for your Towers, not a downgrade
2) Give it the normal -1% loose for each attack AND a chance for a chain lightning, maybe 30% or 50%.
+ You also can give it more DP costs, like 50 instead of 30


After all im a bit angry about it. I spend a lot of time to get this (like ~20days) and finnaly it sucks. It would be great if i could sell it and try an other Uber. :/

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@Guggelhupf quote:

So at the first look, this is a amazing dmg boost, BUT (and that is why i think this Uber is useless). I have tested it in Wyren Den Incursion Hard together with the Geysir Trap from the Archer:


For every shot the Uber loose ~ 3%-4%. This means after 10 Hits (after 10secs with 1sec attack speed) the Sphere have lost 40% from 100%. So the Lightning Strike now looses so fast HP that you cant realy use it effective. You have to run from one to an other and repair, repair, repair and repair... So you also have to upgrade the Lightning Strike as fast as possible for more HP. But also with 200% it looses so fast HP that still run and repair. And in fact that it only hit one target you have to build a lot of more Lightning Strikes, wich means more to repair. It is nearly impossible to kill effective a group of monster with it. For single target ofc it is strong. But realy, the only one wich get killed effective with this Sphere are the Bosses. For all others it is useless.


So here my Ideas:

1) Take away the %HP of it so it cant be destroyed. Because today it is easier to defend with the normal Lightning Strike than with the Uber, wich should not be the sense of the Uber i think.
This first sounds to OP but i had play a long time to get one UBER and it should be an insane Upgrade for your Towers, not a downgrade
2) Give it the normal -1% loose for each attack AND a chance for a chain lightning, maybe 30% or 50%.
+ You also can give it more DP costs, like 50 instead of 30


After all im a bit angry about it. I spend a lot of time to get this (like ~20days) and finnaly it sucks. It would be great if i could sell it and try an other Uber. :/

The lightning strikes aura is arguably one of the best defenses in the game, let alone best uber.

It's not designed to effectively control crowds; if you're using it like that then yeah it's going to be completely worthless. Instead, you put this far behind your CC auras/traps to guarantee that absolutely nothing makes it past. Try this:

  1. Unequip your uber, and summon several electric auras in each lane, enough to kill everything but maybe drakin/ogres
  2. Equip your uber, and summon a single strikes aura well behind your aura stacks
  3. Watch as all the trash mobs die in your electric auras, and any remnants are obliterated by lightning strikes
  4. When an ogre comes, make sure your strikes aura for that lane is T5, and dodge maybe 1-2 of its swings before it dies

If you use the strikes aura as a finisher defense, you'll quickly find immense value out of it, as well as understand why so many people are wanting a nerf for it. The plus side is that it makes solo play manageable as you're able to quickly dispatch ogres; but in that same breath it trivializes the difficulty in most maps.

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