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R@id3n

Heroes, tower balance and difficulty - My 2 cents

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Right now the balance is as follows:

EDIT: I'm doing this comparison under the same conditions, so if a squire can solo a map, can tank ogres, be afk most of the time, and just use less than a half of building points to win a incursion 25+++ these are the rules that applies to the other heroes.

You can easily solo any map and tank lanes and even bosses with

  • Squire

You can solo any map with

  • Squire
  • Apprentice

You can solo some easy maps with

  • Squire
  • Apprentice
  • Monk

You can't do anything else other than hit enemies in the distance and you do less damage than the squire.

  • Huntress

On top of that the melee heroes do more damage than the range ones because they can hit several enemies at the same time (and some of them can tank...)


Another important thing is that there is no strategy in the game, you just deploy the towers and that's it, the maps and enemies doesn't require complex builds or a combination of towers from different heroes, or any combination at all. I'm not talking about adding enemies with more health or damage, I'm talking about adding more type of enemies or add different skills to the existing ones for example:

  • "Invisible" enemies (only for the towers) that can only by hit by certain towers, or they lose the invisibility when they go through an electric aura....
  • Enemies that are only affected by damage coming from combos, or certain types of damage, electric, fire....
  • Enemies that can protect (with a shield) the enemies behind them
  • Enemies that appear after the parent is dead, like a golem that once you kill it you get a lot of small golems... (Was this in DD1?)
  • Enemies that have a chance to evade towers attacks and they only target heroes,
  • .... I could continue but I would say that the idea is to force the users to make more complex builds and make the game more interesting

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@R@id3n quote:


Another important thing is that there is no strategy in the game, you just deploy the towers and that's it, the maps and enemies doesn't require complex builds or a combination of towers from different heroes, or any combination at all.

I don't believe there is a single game out there in which easy difficulty requires any sort of strategy.

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@Omamba quote:


@R@id3n quote:


Another important thing is that there is no strategy in the game, you just deploy the towers and that's it, the maps and enemies doesn't require complex builds or a combination of towers from different heroes, or any combination at all.

I don't believe there is a single game out there in which easy difficulty requires any sort of strategy.

Right now the game is in normal difficulty, and when we had hard it was just like normal but then enemies had more health.

Any tower defense game, or any MOBA (this is a kind of mix of both), or games like Orcs must die 2 requires strategy and know how at any dificulty. Right now the game is a no brain, no skill, "just place cannons and thats it" where the only purpose to play is to farm.

And more or less this was the feeling as well in DD1 where you had all the modes and difficulties available, but in general I found it more challenging. 

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Fixed it for you

@R@id3n quote:

Right now the balance is as follows:

You can easily solo any map and tank lanes and even bosses with

  • Squire
  • Apprentice
  • Huntress

You can be the 2nd hero in every deck for boost aura with

  • Monk

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Huntress is in a good spot, its just the Gems/DU are a real factor when trying to play the class effectively solo, most people will choose the easy route or not have the patience to get all the get affix's they need to fully test what each class is capable of. you can do incursions with just mines, just link monk can do it with just lightning aura, ofcourse will take a little more than standing still and upgrading, bows can roll a affix of up to 35%? 30+ on bows which no other class can but they also can't get any tower affix's on helmets, so far with my testing mines i the best way to go but its possible to build poison darts the same way you would with a cannon/fireblast core surround build just again, its not as effective because you wait for a DoT to tick up, but poion dart can be one of the strongest towers for single target dps. Blaze balloon on the other hand i don't find worth using.

Should try Tower Pow/Tower HP Huntress for the mines or Tower Pow/Tower Speed huntress for poison dart, they can be very effective. If you add a pure Tow HP/self healing blockade the right positions it can make maps afkable from a really early point (aside from air units(

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@R@id3n quote:

You can't do anything else other than hit enemies in the distance and you do less damage than the squire.

  • Huntress

Please explain how to do this much damage with a squire.

66db31fe38.jpg

Thank you.

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@FrostSabre quote:


@R@id3n quote:

You can't do anything else other than hit enemies in the distance and you do less damage than the squire.

  • Huntress

Please explain how to do this much damage with a squire.

66db31fe38.jpg

Thank you.



@bc304daedalus quote:

yes pelase show me an image of a squire doing 20k+ hits XD

You clearly don't understand. A huntress can only hit one target, max. A Squire hitting 5 targets for 3k DPS would be doing more DPS than this Huntress.


(also Huntresses only do that DPS at max range, that DPS drops off significantly, as much as 67% just by moving closer to the target).

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@Qbert quote:

You clearly don't understand. A huntress can only hit one target, max. A Squire hitting 5 targets for 3k DPS would be doing more DPS than this Huntress. 


(also Huntresses only do that DPS at max range, that DPS drops off significantly, as much as 67% just by moving closer to the target).

The only time I can see this being relevant is if we didn't have any form of crowd control whatsoever.

The only things worth doing damage to are, in order -
Ogres, Dark Mages, Armored Orcs, Javellin Throwers/Drakins.

Everything else dies to Auras, Traps, and the ilk.

Its hard to get 3+ of these targets that close to each other when you're knocking them back with your sword.

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It's also hard to hit those priority targets when you are 150 yards away, they are moving, and you can't shoot through literally anything, mobs included.

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@Qbert quote:

It's also hard to hit those priority targets when you are 150 yards away, they are moving, and you can't shoot through literally anything, mobs included.


Quite hard to hit them when the priority targets just so happen to be bigger than everything else indeed.
And if your going to be that far away... An elevated vantage point just so happens to make it much easier.

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Lol, easily done 1-25 with all heroes solo, and it was pretty easy, the huntress was the funniest to play with 'cause there was a lot of interaction and i would build as i'd play, dunno  how you build and stuff. 

As DPS she can have sometimes high damage, my max so far was 30k but it doesn't happen as often, but definitely there's no one with my single target damage than huntress, if single target is useful or not that's a different matter. 

I'd say they're in a quite good spot atm, Huntress could use a little change on teh blaze balloons and the squire on the Dummy but besides that it's pretty well balanced for each's function huntress requires a little more attention but if take time and actually try to play with it, it's not that hard. Haven't built a huntress for incursions but i expect to do in the future, the only thing that i could see myself getting mad about is the constant repair and upgrading, that could be better for end game definitely.


@R@id3n quote:

Any tower defense game, or any MOBA (this is a kind of mix of both), or games like Orcs must die 2 requires strategy and know how at any dificulty. Right now the game is a no brain, no skill, "just place cannons and thats it" where the only purpose to play is to farm. 

This is an action tower defense RPG, not a moba tower defense xD (not going at you just pointing that out, the DD2 moba was scratched a long time ago and then they began working on the DD2 you know today.


On Hero DPSing

My fav hero to DPS is huntress, while single target has it's disavantages it has also it's advantages, I can hit 30k at a good distance and hit kill stuff and at short range it's descent enough to hit 20k, the fact that it's single target might be a little bad but, since life steal benefits from only the highest damage, the huntress with life steal will heal herself more way more 'cause she deal way more damage that's counted for life steal than any other.

Plus a thing to keep in mind is that the weapons are not the way they want, there will be more deph added, stuff like projectiles and such.


Btw there's a sub forum for Feedback which has sections for each heroes if you want to get into more detail and place it in a place where it will definitely be taken to account you should go there.

I think the issue with hero DPS goes for all heroes, heroes are all too tanky and hit way not enough.

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@Qbert quote:

It's also hard to hit those priority targets when you are 150 yards away, they are moving, and you can't shoot through literally anything, mobs included.

issue solved tripple stack aura on spawn all small mobs die instantly leaving  bigger ones  to walk out only  :) 

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@R@id3n quote:"Invisible" enemies (only for the towers) that can only by hit by certain towers, or they lose the invisibility when they go through an electric aura....
Sounds like a great idea for an Incursion or map challenge.
@R@id3n quote:Enemies that are only affected by damage coming from combos, or certain types of damage, electric, fire....
Elemental resistances are likely going to be added.  Forcing an enemy to be damaged by a specific element, that could cause problems since not every hero can deal every elemental damage type.
@R@id3n quote:Enemies that can protect (with a shield) the enemies behind them
The Witherbeasts are kind of like this, but instead of defending allies, they nerf your towers.
@R@id3n quote:Enemies that appear after the parent is dead, like a golem that once you kill it you get a lot of small golems... (Was this in DD1?)
I don't think this was in DD1, but it would make for an interesting boss fight!  The closest thing I can think of is kobolds that die and drop some explosives around it.  You might consider looking at the Mama Ogre thread.
@R@id3n quote:Enemies that have a chance to evade towers attacks and they only target heroes,
Dark Elf Warriors seem to fit this description.  I believe they are currently in development for DD2.
@R@id3n quote:.... I could continue but I would say that the idea is to force the users to make more complex builds and make the game more interesting

I'm not sure this is really the solution you are looking for.  After all, regardless of how complex a build ends up being, it can be the same thing every time.  It would be better to force different builds.  For example, have a commander that, during the build phase, sees that you have majority of defenses as cannonballs, breaks them all into green mana, and prevents them from being built that round (or even for the rest of the match).  Suddenly, every build phase actually requires building and thinking up a new way to defend your cores.

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Also, Huntress is much better in DD2 imo now that secondary ability is actually a benefit as opposed to reloading.  Still would like to see her improved, but steps are being taken in the right direction at least!

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Sorry but, huntress is very viable for any map.  Monk, Squire, apprentice and Huntress can solo any map no problem.  It's all about how you build.  I managed to do the Chrome incursion using nothing but huntress traps, and my dps monk.  Dark Mage is even easier cause the geyser traps work.

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@Kraith88 quote:

Sorry but, huntress is very viable for any map.  Monk, Squire, apprentice and Huntress can solo any map no problem.  It's all about how you build.  I managed to do the Chrome incursion using nothing but huntress traps, and my dps monk.  Dark Mage is even easier cause the geyser traps work.

I can hardly believe that you can pass a incursion 25+++++ map only with huntress traps, maybe you did but you must have an extremely high tower points and use all the building points. Compare this situation with the squire that can solo that map just using less than a half of the building points, and can be afk during the entire game except when the bosses appear, and you don't need particularly high tower/mele stats to do this.

Just compare the DPS of the traps... is the weakest of all 4 and has some useless traps and on top of that isn't the best DPS character.


Regarding the people saying that the huntress is a better DPS... come one, in the best case scenario with all the bonus working (distance, secondary shot....) with a Huntress you can do 12K damage and you can't stop a lane, while with the squire you can do 3000-4000 x (4-5 enemies) and block an entire lane without particulary high stats.

On top of this the 12k damage are a waste to kill any enemy with a healt lower than that, ie if you hit 5000 health enemies, you are wasting 7000 damage per second.

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[[55686,users]] 

I'm not sure this is really the solution you are looking for.  After all, regardless of how complex a build ends up being, it can be the same thing every time.  It would be better to force different builds.  For example, have a commander that, during the build phase, sees that you have majority of defenses as cannonballs, breaks them all into green mana, and prevents them from being built that round (or even for the rest of the match).  Suddenly, every build phase actually requires building and thinking up a new way to defend your cores.

I agree with you, but at least adding some of points I raise you are forcing people to do more complex builds and mix towers from all the heros, so at least there will be multiple ways to build until you reach the optimal one.

Another enemy would be:

  • A worm (dune?) that travels under the floor and only appears too attack or when it goes below an electric aura.
intro_s.jpg


As you said in addition would be nice to do something to change the "strategy" in the middle of the game...

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@R@id3n quote:

I can hardly believe that you can pass a incursion 25+++++ map only with huntress traps, maybe you did but you must have an extremely high tower points and use all the building points. Compare this situation with the squire that can solo that map just using less than a half of the building points, and can be afk during the entire game except when the bosses appear, and you don't need particularly high tower/mele stats to do this.

Just compare the DPS of the traps... is the weakest of all 4 and has some useless traps and on top of that isn't the best DPS character.

I'd love to see a video of you afking an incursion with a 750/750 squire.

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@Syclic quote:


@R@id3n quote:

I can hardly believe that you can pass a incursion 25+++++ map only with huntress traps, maybe you did but you must have an extremely high tower points and use all the building points. Compare this situation with the squire that can solo that map just using less than a half of the building points, and can be afk during the entire game except when the bosses appear, and you don't need particularly high tower/mele stats to do this.

Just compare the DPS of the traps... is the weakest of all 4 and has some useless traps and on top of that isn't the best DPS character.

I'd love to see a video of you afking an incursion with a 750/750 squire.

why 750/750? above or around 900 which is a easy level to get it can be easily done, just try, I don't have time to make a video, but anyone with those levels will agree with me.

There is a lot of people already with cannons + boost that can deal 13k damage they have stats between 1000-1100 

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@R@id3n quote:


@Syclic quote:


@R@id3n quote:

I can hardly believe that you can pass a incursion 25+++++ map only with huntress traps, maybe you did but you must have an extremely high tower points and use all the building points. Compare this situation with the squire that can solo that map just using less than a half of the building points, and can be afk during the entire game except when the bosses appear, and you don't need particularly high tower/mele stats to do this.

Just compare the DPS of the traps... is the weakest of all 4 and has some useless traps and on top of that isn't the best DPS character.

I'd love to see a video of you afking an incursion with a 750/750 squire.

why 750/750? above or around 900 which is a easy level to get it can be easily done, just try, I don't have time to make a video, but anyone with those levels will agree with me.

There is a lot of people already with cannons + boost that can deal 13k damage they have stats between 1000-1100 

by your rules you can't use boost auras.


and 750/750 because those are roughly the stats I had the first time I Solo'd an incursion on my huntress.

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@Syclic quote:


@R@id3n quote:


@Syclic quote:


@R@id3n quote:

I can hardly believe that you can pass a incursion 25+++++ map only with huntress traps, maybe you did but you must have an extremely high tower points and use all the building points. Compare this situation with the squire that can solo that map just using less than a half of the building points, and can be afk during the entire game except when the bosses appear, and you don't need particularly high tower/mele stats to do this.

Just compare the DPS of the traps... is the weakest of all 4 and has some useless traps and on top of that isn't the best DPS character.

I'd love to see a video of you afking an incursion with a 750/750 squire.

why 750/750? above or around 900 which is a easy level to get it can be easily done, just try, I don't have time to make a video, but anyone with those levels will agree with me.

There is a lot of people already with cannons + boost that can deal 13k damage they have stats between 1000-1100 

by your rules you can't use boost auras.


and 750/750 because those are roughly the stats I had the first time I Solo'd an incursion on my huntress.

Again a 25+++ incursion? I doubt it even spending all the tower points.

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Did you know you can kill allot of the weaker mobs with just a single barricade in each lane? Its very easy to solo with just mines and 2 poison dart towers (for air) you dont even have to upgrade mines, your cores will take allot of damage thoe and it will take a large amount of hero involvement on ogres and a small amount under the staircases for healing wave chrome is quite easy thoe once the first waves over but once again must kite ogres. I do not use boost auras for huntress but other classes the boost aura benefit is to large.

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