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kotoboi

Item drop rate and how to prevent people from grind (9)

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Hello its my 9th part of suggestions, it will complete information about grind problem (original information here: https://www.dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/117668/massive-ideas-and-improvements-post )

To get good items you must grind and grind and grind... Because good set of items are much better than combo-like. The range of item drop is crazy. You must not wait just for good item, you need to get 2 good stats on them, then a good additional bonuses and then a GOOD % of this additional bonuses and this item must be top item level and level for hero. Its like that in lineage is easier to get a +10 draconic bow than to get a good item here... So i ll suggest to make something from this - because noone like grind very much. Except bots...

1). Make a special items stats - imagine what classes can be - builder, defence builder, dps, ability dps, tank. Hybryds are very weak and lost to specialists. (maybe dps+ability is good). So if you have a drop like a 25 dp on it there must be also a ds on this item - because no other class dont want this item - it is garbadge. So connect stat items together - that will reduce bad items in drop and help very much.

2). Then add a vendor that will change your secondary stat to that you want - like changing Health to Hero damage. It will somehow reduce bad drops and make a less grind... Same here with additionally stat - let that vendor change the erarthshaker radius to flameburst damage or something else. It will help to make people better gear and prevent grind again. 

3). Let the item leveler to increase % bonuses too - it will be awesome - so many tactics and combinations.

4). The chests in the end - what are they for? looting greens 5 rounds from chests when got legendary from each ogres its seems funny. Never got legendary chest, 2 mystical and 20 blue - all others green. You can make a special loot here - like pets or you can let people to pick a preferable stats on item that will drop from it and increase the chance to get good item. At now - chests are really useless.

5) Make 25 lvl items drop from incursions... really...

6) Some items even doesnt have secondary stats... especially some relics...

You have a good game and i like dd1 even with cheats (cant complete tinkers lab survirval nmhm even with them xD) so i would like to help this project as much as i can. I hope you will not make a grind game - but a challenge game. The challenge game is much better - you trying to cooperate, making many interesting tactics, it is REALLY GOOD PLAYING EXPERIENCE. So... please xD make something with that grind)


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I agree to the fact, that there could be a few more stats on items instead of some useless Playerhealth all the way BUT:

Grinding is the thing Dungeon Defenders endgame is all about.
Once they remove the grinding part from this game, it'll be like playing some kind of singleplayer MMO with cheats, where you run  at bosses, 1shot them and receive nothing.

If you are against grinding in games you definately shouldn't play DD / DD2.

EDIT;

"You have a good game and i like dd1 even with cheats"  kotoboi 2015

So you are one of those guys.

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@upper class | cAENY0 [GER] quote:

I agree to the fact, that there could be a few more stats on items instead of some useless Playerhealth all the way BUT:

Grinding is the thing Dungeon Defenders endgame is all about.
Once they remove the grinding part from this game, it'll be like playing some kind of singleplayer MMO with cheats, where you run  at bosses, 1shot them and receive nothing.

If you are against grinding in games you definately shouldn't play DD / DD2.

EDIT;

"You have a good game and i like dd1 even with cheats"  kotoboi 2015

So you are one of those guys.

there are many ways to make game not in grind style. It can be Daily style or Challenging style or something else. Once the game will be released, or earlier, the game will be flooded by bots that will farm gear. And i will really understand people who doesnt like to spend a days to gear 1 character... Many good games died because of grinding and it is best chance to change game policy while it is in alpha. End game content can be done by many ways, it is mainly just game designers problem how to solve it. So they can try WoW style model - when "not best loot" can be gained by anyone with daily/weekly activity. And get dlc at the moment when midterm player collected full set of items. The grinders can usually farm the same instances as much as they want. 

The "Grind Game" is a past age - when people have not many games to play. Now - people will find game where is more casual style. Also dont forget that the % of people that can grind is much lesser than % of people that can't.

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@kotoboi quote:


@upper class | cAENY0 [GER] quote:

I agree to the fact, that there could be a few more stats on items instead of some useless Playerhealth all the way BUT:

Grinding is the thing Dungeon Defenders endgame is all about.
Once they remove the grinding part from this game, it'll be like playing some kind of singleplayer MMO with cheats, where you run  at bosses, 1shot them and receive nothing.

If you are against grinding in games you definately shouldn't play DD / DD2.

EDIT;

"You have a good game and i like dd1 even with cheats"  kotoboi 2015

So you are one of those guys.

there are many ways to make game not in grind style. It can be Daily style or Challenging style or something else. Once the game will be released, or earlier, the game will be flooded by bots that will farm gear. And i will really understand people who doesnt like to spend a days to gear 1 character... Many good games died because of grinding and it is best chance to change game policy while it is in alpha. End game content can be done by many ways, it is mainly just game designers problem how to solve it. So they can try WoW style model - when "not best loot" can be gained by anyone with daily/weekly activity. And get dlc at the moment when midterm player collected full set of items. The grinders can usually farm the same instances as much as they want. 

The "Grind Game" is a past age - when people have not many games to play. Now - people will find game where is more casual style. Also dont forget that the % of people that can grind is much lesser than % of people that can't.

That is actually completely untrue. Look at the most popular games on twitch. LoL, DOTA2, Hearthstone, SC2, WoW, Runescape, D3, Minecraft. The top end of these games are absurdly grindy in the same ways DD1 and DD2 are. Even the catch up gear mechanics that you mention in WoW are extremely grindy, just not of harder content.


Also the type of "Gaming Age" you talk about describes one type of individual that most companies are not trying to cater to. The flippant player who hops around cheap or free games with no intention of staying on one for more than a few weeks does next to nothing for the companies that develop the games.


But back to the main point of this thread. Gear. To get perfect gear, yes you need to grind. BUT, to do incursions, which is the end game right now, you only need to do a handful of maps to get your stats up on 1-2 characters enough to do them solo. Not to mention all the players who go into a social incursion and AFK for their loot. The FACT that I'm trying to convey is that you don't need perfect loot to do the end game content in any game and as far as I'm aware this type of game, with randomly generated gear, is not designed with the intention of players ever attaining perfect gear.

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@Syclic quote:


That is actually completely untrue. Look at the most popular games on twitch. LoL, DOTA2, Hearthstone, SC2, WoW, Runescape, D3, Minecraft. The top end of these games are absurdly grindy in the same ways DD1 and DD2 are. Even the catch up gear mechanics that you mention in WoW are extremely grindy, just not of harder content.


Also the type of "Gaming Age" you talk about describes one type of individual that most companies are not trying to cater to. The flippant player who hops around cheap or free games with no intention of staying on one for more than a few weeks does next to nothing for the companies that develop the games.


But back to the main point of this thread. Gear. To get perfect gear, yes you need to grind. BUT, to do incursions, which is the end game right now, you only need to do a handful of maps to get your stats up on 1-2 characters enough to do them solo. Not to mention all the players who go into a social incursion and AFK for their loot. The FACT that I'm trying to convey is that you don't need perfect loot to do the end game content in any game and as far as I'm aware this type of game, with randomly generated gear, is not designed with the intention of players ever attaining perfect gear.

I think that you just looking at this games at prizm of popularity. Lets look at this games as game mechanics. I even said that WoW is not grind? They just use many mechanics, so every type of player can feel comfortable there. Casual players can farm tokens to get pre top gear also there is a LFG and LFR for them. Grind players can do 25 ppl hard mods and challenges - all have - what to do.  Sc2 - there is just skill - no grind. The same sessions over and over. There is a game basic of many strategy. The main idea here - that vs you is a player - not a wave-spawning computer. Lol and Dota are MOBA - there is the same idea - they are PVP games. DD2 at this moment - fully pve game. Minecraft is a sandbox - there is just game progression and no goal. Once you get all - you lost interest (thats true for many pve games). So there are many minecraft servers that make that goal further and adding many good and interesting gameplay mechanics. The main life cycle of that type of games - is a progression in objective. Diablo 3 lost a big amount of players once they completed game. Just try to find statistics. Also - there so much bots in D3, like WoW, yeah. Hearthstone same pvp game. There much random in playing and - you can get every card just by collecting reagents from cards that you dont need - a very good mechanic. It can be used there too. 

Then. Yeah - grindy players likes to push some money to get something really good that others people doesnt. At another way - casual players always buy for real items that were grinded for many days. There are many and many ways to keep player in your game. If you cant see them - you can grind further. 

Next. I understand what you mean. But i need to say that if there is no other type of game goal - then it is gear. So if gear is goal then you need to get it. To get it you MUST grind. Also to get not best gear to incursions is hard too. Just because you got "Hero health" + "tower damage" or a good item but blue or 22 level. They are afk just because boring. Grind is boring - it doesnt give any player experience, just wasted time. 

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@upper class | cAENY0 [GER] quote:

LOL do you even read what you're writing bro?

Once you get all - you lost interest (thats true for many pve games) kotoboi MVP

Yes, what is strange? If you will give all loot to players - they wouldnt play any further. So you can give another goals - like challenges or game progression to keep them playing. Also i want to make an alternative way to let people get "not top gear but good enough" without spending tens of hours. There are three ways. 1st - is to reduce randomness of items. 2nd -  is to make alternative way to save your lifetime. 3rd -  is to make alternative goal in game - not gear, but maybe a very hard map where skill will be needed. It may be included gear requirements but not the best. There is more balance question anyway.

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@kotoboi quote:

I think that you just looking at this games at prizm of popularity. Lets look at this games as game mechanics. I even said that WoW is not grind? They just use many mechanics, so every type of player can feel comfortable there. Casual players can farm tokens to get pre top gear also there is a LFG and LFR for them. Grind players can do 25 ppl hard mods and challenges - all have - what to do.  Sc2 - there is just skill - no grind. The same sessions over and over. There is a game basic of many strategy. The main idea here - that vs you is a player - not a wave-spawning computer. Lol and Dota are MOBA - there is the same idea - they are PVP games. DD2 at this moment - fully pve game. Minecraft is a sandbox - there is just game progression and no goal. Once you get all - you lost interest (thats true for many pve games). So there are many minecraft servers that make that goal further and adding many good and interesting gameplay mechanics. The main life cycle of that type of games - is a progression in objective. Diablo 3 lost a big amount of players once they completed game. Just try to find statistics. Also - there so much bots in D3, like WoW, yeah. Hearthstone same pvp game. There much random in playing and - you can get every card just by collecting reagents from cards that you dont need - a very good mechanic. It can be used there too. 


Then. Yeah - grindy players likes to push some money to get something really good that others people doesnt. At another way - casual players always buy for real items that were grinded for many days. There are many and many ways to keep player in your game. If you cant see them - you can grind further. 

Next. I understand what you mean. But i need to say that if there is no other type of game goal - then it is gear. So if gear is goal then you need to get it. To get it you MUST grind. Also to get not best gear to incursions is hard too. Just because you got "Hero health" + "tower damage" or a good item but blue or 22 level. They are afk just because boring. Grind is boring - it doesnt give any player experience, just wasted time. 

But the actual player progression of the games is grind intensive. In every game I mentioned you have some kind of grind before you can actually compete/play the end game. 

In every MOBA you have to first level up your account while collecting characters(Hundreds of hours of gameplay), not to mention grinding mobs for 15 minutes every game in the "laning phase". 

SC2 is somewhat of an outlier in this group but I added it because there are extreme skill hurdles to overcome and they take longer than any other game to attain. 

To even get a lvl 100 in WoW takes most players tens of hours of gameplay, then double that to be able to get into raids. To get into a good guild these days takes years of experience and consistent play. Even with all that it will take you hundreds of hours of gameplay to attain the top end gear.

Diablo 3 lost a ton of players on multiple problems it had before ROS came out. One of which was giving it out to millions of WoW subscribers that "promised" to sub to WoW for a year, inflating their original numbers. The game was pretty awful in it's first form and didn't offer anything for players to do.

Minecraft takes hours of foraging and gathering because anything you do involves going out to get the materials for it. There isnt a real endgame in vanilla minecraft, but not that many people play vanilla anymore.

To be competitive at all in hearthstone, you need to have virtually all cards unlocked. To do this without paying gobs on money you need to play thousands of matches.


The item progression in this game is actually very good for the stage of alpha that we're in. Players just skip over the good parts with afking in other peoples' incursions. Each one of my characters I've leveled myself, and by the time they reach 20 they have gear to do 20+ reasonably easily and by the time they're 25 they have gear that they can start soloing 25++ and contributing to an incursion build.

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@Syclic quote:

But the actual player progression of the games is grind intensive. In every game I mentioned you have some kind of grind before you can actually compete/play the end game. 

In every MOBA you have to first level up your account while collecting characters(Hundreds of hours of gameplay), not to mention grinding mobs for 15 minutes every game in the "laning phase". 

SC2 is somewhat of an outlier in this group but I added it because there are extreme skill hurdles to overcome and they take longer than any other game to attain. 

To even get a lvl 100 in WoW takes most players tens of hours of gameplay, then double that to be able to get into raids. To get into a good guild these days takes years of experience and consistent play. Even with all that it will take you hundreds of hours of gameplay to attain the top end gear.

Diablo 3 lost a ton of players on multiple problems it had before ROS came out. One of which was giving it out to millions of WoW subscribers that "promised" to sub to WoW for a year, inflating their original numbers. The game was pretty awful in it's first form and didn't offer anything for players to do.

Minecraft takes hours of foraging and gathering because anything you do involves going out to get the materials for it. There isnt a real endgame in vanilla minecraft, but not that many people play vanilla anymore.

To be competitive at all in hearthstone, you need to have virtually all cards unlocked. To do this without paying gobs on money you need to play thousands of matches.


The item progression in this game is actually very good for the stage of alpha that we're in. Players just skip over the good parts with afking in other peoples' incursions. Each one of my characters I've leveled myself, and by the time they reach 20 they have gear to do 20+ reasonably easily and by the time they're 25 they have gear that they can start soloing 25++ and contributing to an incursion build.

Thats a progressive metod as you said - not grind so much. Also in examples you told there is a same progression method - you have a goal to reach maximum level. In wow - it isnt neccesary getting raid gear or going to top guild. If you want this - then it is just your style. Just a few % watched high end mechanics of the hard mods. 
In MOBA - it is just a welcome path - it made to let players test all heroes and not play just one. Once you played by many heroes while have a goal of opening them - you get experience and thats cool and give you fun. Once you level up in WoW you learn a lot of lore, quests mechanics, "how to not die in fire" etc. You got game experience. Afking and grinding one map in DD2 is not experience - it is wasting time. SC2 - is too experience - the more experience the more skill.
At any of your games that you talked - there is a game experience progression. So and we talking about end game. DD2 have this experience progression that lasts on two first incursions. After then - boring grind. Also you can even win in HS just with basic cards - it is so cool random game xD 

So after your words i wanna some modifing for my 1st suggestion - i want to see that i wont spend my time on random. That after 10 hours of playing i ll got 1 good item. Like DKP system in WoW - if you dont get your item by random - you can spend it on something else.

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My opinion is that fewer better drops > more trivial drops.

It's not fun to loot 100 items if you only end up with a single item you wanted. It's more fun to loot just 10 items to find one or two items you wanted.

It makes the event of an item dropping a significant event because even if it means loot drops much less often you at least know there's a good chance it's probably something worthwhile.

Instead what we get now is loot spam all over the map and hours of time wasted sorting through the junk in out temp bag after just a handful of  incursions.


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@kotoboi quote:

Also i want to make an alternative way to let people get "not top gear but good enough" without spending tens of hours. 

Mythic level 25 gear would fall into your category of "not top gear but good enough".  Even before incursions and the loot-splosion that came from them, Mythic 25 pieces were not that uncommon.  Now, it is extremely easy to find those perfect rolled pieces with little effort.



@kotoboi quote:

So after your words i wanna some modifing for my 1st suggestion - i want to see that i wont spend my time on random. That after 10 hours of playing i ll got 1 good item. Like DKP system in WoW - if you dont get your item by random - you can spend it on something else.

I find it extremely hard to believe that after 10 hours you only got 1 "good" item.  Unless your definition of "good" is DS/DP Item Power 156 legendary.  In fact, now with incursions, legendaries drop like crazy.  A good item would even include a level 22 (maybe 23) single stat legendary.  With the upgrades available, that will likely be a replacement to any mythic less than perfect level 25.

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@Syclic quote:


@kotoboi quote:


@upper class | cAENY0 [GER] quote:

I agree to the fact, that there could be a few more stats on items instead of some useless Playerhealth all the way BUT:

Grinding is the thing Dungeon Defenders endgame is all about.
Once they remove the grinding part from this game, it'll be like playing some kind of singleplayer MMO with cheats, where you run  at bosses, 1shot them and receive nothing.

If you are against grinding in games you definately shouldn't play DD / DD2.

EDIT;

"You have a good game and i like dd1 even with cheats"  kotoboi 2015

So you are one of those guys.

there are many ways to make game not in grind style. It can be Daily style or Challenging style or something else. Once the game will be released, or earlier, the game will be flooded by bots that will farm gear. And i will really understand people who doesnt like to spend a days to gear 1 character... Many good games died because of grinding and it is best chance to change game policy while it is in alpha. End game content can be done by many ways, it is mainly just game designers problem how to solve it. So they can try WoW style model - when "not best loot" can be gained by anyone with daily/weekly activity. And get dlc at the moment when midterm player collected full set of items. The grinders can usually farm the same instances as much as they want. 

The "Grind Game" is a past age - when people have not many games to play. Now - people will find game where is more casual style. Also dont forget that the % of people that can grind is much lesser than % of people that can't.

That is actually completely untrue. Look at the most popular games on twitch. LoL, DOTA2, Hearthstone, SC2, WoW, Runescape, D3, Minecraft. The top end of these games are absurdly grindy in the same ways DD1 and DD2 are. Even the catch up gear mechanics that you mention in WoW are extremely grindy, just not of harder content.


Also the type of "Gaming Age" you talk about describes one type of individual that most companies are not trying to cater to. The flippant player who hops around cheap or free games with no intention of staying on one for more than a few weeks does next to nothing for the companies that develop the games.


But back to the main point of this thread. Gear. To get perfect gear, yes you need to grind. BUT, to do incursions, which is the end game right now, you only need to do a handful of maps to get your stats up on 1-2 characters enough to do them solo. Not to mention all the players who go into a social incursion and AFK for their loot. The FACT that I'm trying to convey is that you don't need perfect loot to do the end game content in any game and as far as I'm aware this type of game, with randomly generated gear, is not designed with the intention of players ever attaining perfect gear.

You are comparing DD2 and extremely simple game, just place towers and wait, with DOTA2 which to win it requires real team play and a strategy which makes every time you play a little bit different while in DD2 is always exactly the same..., on top of that on DOTA2 you are playing against real people with brain xD

I think the devs should find a way to improve the replayability and not just rely on the idea to get better items, something else should be added to motivate the players to play again and again the same map.

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