Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Qbert

An Unpopular Suggestion for a Growing Problem: Remove Players' Ability to Drop Defense (Green) Mana

Recommended Posts


@Qbert quote:

Right, but the effects inevitably lead to additional damage done.

Apparently there is a heavy need for it as there will be additional difficulty modes in the future. Without any damage there won't be much defending.

Just as you mentioned: it is pre-alpha. There are needs for rebalancing.


@Qbert quote:


You are creating straw man after straw man all out of misplaced fear, of a theoretical change, in a pre-alpha.

No offense, but you rather seem to try to counter any argument as long as it is against your idea by telling any (really good as I read through Batophobia's posts) arguments other than yours are misplaced.


Limit players' freedom has never been a good solution. Forcing players to have random people do integrate in others' builds will just lead to the same thing DDE is suffering from: either you play solo/private or not at all because public play is like 75% frustrating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Qbert quote:

And why does that underpowered tower have to go down? ~Half of defenses aren't targetable, can refresh charges, the other half can be placed either out of range or you can faster DPS down the enemies attacking it or you can simply repair it.

The problem is that maps can have more lanes than heroes, and you don't always have the mana to repair defenses before they get destroyed.  If you are placing towers that enemies cannot directly damage, nothing is stopping them from reaching the core.  If your weak towers cannot kill the horde while you are off defending a different lane, then too bad.  Shudder to think what would happen if a special comes.  Crappy towers need constant attention to hold the line but now there is a massive creature that the good towers can't handle alone.

The only thing I can see coming out of a change like this is frustration.  Players will start chastising others for having crappy towers that can't hold the line.  Rather than make the game more social, you'll see the builders just going to private games so they can control the buildings.  Even if it goes as you expect and everyone has to build, you'll see that players will just go to a lane and build it with all their mana.  Let some other player deal with their lane, I just have to make sure mine doesn't fail.  At that point, just make the maps a single lane and turn it into a single player game.

If you really want to test your theory, then start a new character and refuse to build for others and never offer your mana to others.  If you get annoyed that other low levels keep sharing mana then get a group of 3 others and go through it together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Batophobia quote:

If you really want to test your theory, then start a new character and refuse to build for others and never offer your mana to others.  If you get annoyed that other low levels keep sharing mana then get a group of 3 others and go through it together.

What are you talking about? We have already tested that theory. We are still testing it. We've tested since the game began for months. It was how virtually everyone started out playing.

Then it became obvious it was vastly inferior to mana dumping so most 25+++ matches and even lower level matches now resort to doing it ... the fact that we HAVE already tested this and revealed the obvious flaw is the entire premise of this suggestion.

Comes across like you're just defending the broken easy mode because you're afraid changing anything might make the game harder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Qbert quote:



Comes across like you're just defending the broken easy mode because you're afraid changing anything might make the game harder.

Please stop being offensive just because you dislike the other players' arguments. If you think they are not good, then you should prove that in any polite way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This argument is no longer constructive in any manner.  While you are free to make a suggestion, don't be surprised when others no longer want to deal with your inability to take criticism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Qbert i'm going to be the really bad guy here and come out and say, plainly, that your fix is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.  DD, both one and two, are action RPG mixed with TD. Those genre mixes come with some realities.

As an action RPG there will be progression of power, progression of difficulty, and farming to fill in the gap between power and difficulty.

Since farming is a thing, farmers will in almost all cases prefer to farm in the most efficient way possible. They've already beaten the content, now they're just trying to prepare for the next challenge.

As a TD there will be limited resources and multiple strategies but no matter what strategies are used they must be successful.

When you take the interaction of these characteristics, as you noted, often people will defer to the most geared buider and then contribute with hero DPS as needed or just afk the wave and upgrade between waves. That is an inevitable reality of the mixing of the genres.

Additional realities of the mixing of the genres will be and ebb and flow of progression vs difficulty in tower defense, wherein what's doable is what the defenses plus the hero dps and abilities can manage, will evolve to what's doable with defenses alone, which will be close to strong enough to do (with some creativity) the next level of difficulty in the previous form (def + dps).

Your issue: You want multiple players building to be necessary

Your solution: No sharing of green

The issue, which I assert is not an issue, is that people rely on the strongest builder. The issue is a reality of the mixing of genres. Would I like to see mixed builds? Yes. I myself use a mixed build because it allows me to hard AFK ramps+++. I would even like to see Trendy, in future maps, create situations that necessitate even more complex builds. I believe that is already in the works. The level of difficulty, however, has to be balanced around what one person can bring, and while the hero deck limits the number of heros one can bring, it also limits the complexity of the maps that Trendy can release. 

Now, considering your solution and what it's effect would be on the game:

If I'm geared *good enough* to build a a map solo, and i'm in multi-player and someone else joins suddenly multiple situations can occur which lead to multiple interactions from the players

  • They're geared enough, like me
    They just have me build - I stay I build, we farm relatively quickly
    They want to build - I stay they build, we farm relatively quickly
    They want to build but just their green mana (experiment) 
     -I stay and attempt to work with them, we probably win but waste a lot of time
     -I leave to find a new game (or private game) as I've played this map many times and am not interested in experimentation.

  • They're not geared enough
    They just have me build - I stay I build, we farm relatively quickly
    They want to build - i stay they build, we fail, I leave having wasted 10-25 minutes of my life
    They want to build but just their green mana
     -I stay and attempt to work with them, we lose and leave if they wish to continue with the shenanigans. Leave or stay i just wasted a good deal of time
     -I leave to find a new game (or private game) as I've played this map many times and am not interested in experimentation.

In the end each is free to play the game as he chooses in these scenarios, you see people taking the path of least resistance as a systemic problem with the game and the ability to share mana as a way to control this "problem". My problem with your solution comes here:

  • They're geared enough, like me
    They have to build with their green mana (experiment) 
     -I stay and attempt to work with them, we probably win but waste a lot of time the first time around, it goes smoother the next time around. As long as it doesn't extend the run time by more than 3 minutes I can justify staying for the boosted drop chance.
     -I leave to find a new game (or private game) as I'm not interested in the complication.
  • They're not geared enough
    They have to build with their green mana
     -I stay and attempt to work with them, we lose and leave if they wish to continue with the shenanigans. Leave or stay i just wasted a good deal of time
     -I leave to find a new game (or private game) as I'm not interested in the complication

In your fix you've forced a way of playing upon the whole player base and decentivized public multi-player as a whole. Yes this would completely decentivize public multi-player. Higher level players would only go to public multi-player briefly, if ever, and their goal would be to see if anyone else was geared enough to play with. After checking the public lobby, they'd return to private because it would be the only way they could guarantee consistent farm.

Private exists for a reason, Grouping exists for a reason. You're free to play this game as you want to and if that desire is to play with 4 players each building their share of green, then find 3 other players interested in playing that way. If I come across players playing that way in Pub, i'll just leave as i'm not interested in playing that way. It's nothing against them or against me. Please don't look to force your play style upon me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Batophobia quote:


@Qbert quote:TLDR: for combo damage to prevent the strategy of dumping Defense mana to a single builder... total combo damage would have to be 3x as valuable as the entire value of all your spec and gear points. IOW if you want your gear & spec pts to be meaningful, combo damage would have to be ludicrously meaningul

Making it so players can no longer drop green mana is not going to make it so more than one player have to build.  Players will just start a new game and hope they can get their mana chest before others join.  If not, they could end up just quitting and starting another match.

You are also forcing players to spec for towers.  If the games starts with only 1 player spec'd for towers then that's basically saying half the defenses will be fine.  Problem is, if ANY lane goes down, the whole party loses.  Guess where the blame will be pointed.

"But every player has a hero deck so they can have 3 heros", you might interject.  Not always true since there are still level ranges tied to games.  If my only level 25 is not spec'd for towers, then being forced to use crappy towers in one of the 25 level ranges will be a problem.  Instead, I will have to grind multiple heroes so all of them reach 25 together before I can join those games.  This is also true for Free Play on level 20 and even inside the Campaign.

Just because you hold on to your green mana doesn't mean that all you can do with it is build. I guess everyone forgot that you can also use your green mana to upgrade defenses. If you have no builder, then just upgrade or repair what is already out there.

I should not have to build/upgrade/repair and patrol every lane to pick up the green mana that drops before the chests are opened and it deletes it while the others are afk until the end.

The only down side to having players hold on to their green mana is unable to pool it to upgrade a high tier tower on round 5 or potential bad use of mana by newer players or griefers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@scarecrow7 quote:Just because you hold on to your green mana doesn't mean that all you can do with it is build. I guess everyone forgot that you can also use your green mana to upgrade defenses. If you have no builder, then just upgrade or repair what is already out there.

My main problem stems from initial build phase.  If you have 4 players in your tavern when you start the game, each of the will have to build or each lane gets few towers that are all boosted.  I'm not sure why this is considered better than just letting one player build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@scarecrow7 quote:

Just because you hold on to your green mana doesn't mean that all you can do with it is build. I guess everyone forgot that you can also use your green mana to upgrade defenses. If you have no builder, then just upgrade or repair what is already out there.

I should not have to build/upgrade/repair and patrol every lane to pick up the green mana that drops before the chests are opened and it deletes it while the others are afk until the end.

The only down side to having players hold on to their green mana is unable to pool it to upgrade a high tier tower on round 5 or potential bad use of mana by newer players or griefers.

But that already happens in subsequent rounds. The first phase before the map starts is basically building and very little upgrading until the tower limit is close or achieved because it's cost effective, which would force everyone to build. Build weak towers, your lane falls, you waste mana, you lose subsequent rounds. If someone didn't have a builder and you say they should upgrade instead, they would be forced to use 200+ mana for upgrades in the first round. While that does happen in few games for a thought out strategy, what if 2 players didn't have builders? You're looking at 4-500 mana for upgrades at least. 

All subsequent rounds are mostly upgrading and little building while towers are linked to chars so it wouldn't make a difference which is why nobody has mentioned upgrading. There are instances where it changes such as a lane falls or the changing of tower strategy but I wouldn't say that's very often.

If you build/upgrade and all, then I assume you do it because you are the strongest or most experienced. If you don't want to, then don't. It sounds like if you don't, you're saying you will lose. Imagine that enforced every game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't agree with this. DPS players will pick up mana. Yes they could use it to just upgrade but sometimes you need to add and this reduces the amount of mana the builders would have. This is a play style issue that should not be changed by removing freedom of play. When I play with my friends they want me to build so they can DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@SaraNeko quote:

I dont understand why you would even bring this up.

I love trowing birds and wind at the mobs! ^^

Good point.  We also wouldn't be able to make it rain mana during the victory scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree. You can always suggest your teammates to do a mixed build! Also many times you are left with some useless mana, which is indeed good for an upgrade or too if you sum it with your teammates' mana!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@nicosemp quote:

I disagree. You can always suggest your teammates to do a mixed build! Also many times you are left with some useless mana, which is indeed good for an upgrade or too if you sum it with your teammates' mana!

One of the sentences I tend to use during the build phase: 'I've got xy mana left. Does anyone need it?'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this would make for a great optional difficulty for maps. Much like DD1 had several options you could allow in order to make the game more difficult, yet yield better gear, you could do the same in DD2, and have this be one of those difficulties.  

If the players were good enough, then it would be worth it for the better gear drop rate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A change like this would create a community u can alrdy experience in games like LOL.

No one wants to play with noobs cause they don't know how to do it right, how to work together.

I would personally swap to private after this with my experience and towers, I dont want to fail and get frustrated with nearly maxed out gear cause someone else didnt do anything right and ruined everything 1/4 green gems is not enough to save the game solo.

Atm I gladly play with any new player, even let them build if they want, give them tips/hints. Or if it fails rebuild everything on the last wawe and complete it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Batophobia quote:

One problem I have with this is having less experienced players being forced to build for something they don't know.  A popular build for Ramparts is to place most of your towers by the door,

To me losing a core isn't winning the map, I'll never settle with that easy mode strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An excellent spotting of a significant problem, but a solution that is in my opinion being sub par.

The problem right now is that a single player can carry a team with their defenses, when many would much rather be able to be equally valuable contributors. I would propose that defenses from only two of your classes would be permitted; you can swap between all your heroes, but only the first two heroes in your deck that summon defenses are permitted to build. That way if you want a truly diverse build, you'll want to work together as a team to determine each players' strength and capitalize on it. This suggestion also removes the arbitrary cap of 3 heroes in a deck in favor of adapting to any circumstance with any two hero defenses and a dps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

An excellent spotting of a significant problem, but a solution that is in my opinion being sub par.

The problem right now is that a single player can carry a team with their defenses, when many would much rather be able to be equally valuable contributors. I would propose that defenses from only two of your classes would be permitted; you can swap between all your heroes, but only the first two heroes in your deck that summon defenses are permitted to build. That way if you want a truly diverse build, you'll want to work together as a team to determine each players' strength and capitalize on it. This suggestion also removes the arbitrary cap of 3 heroes in a deck in favor of adapting to any circumstance with any two hero defenses and a dps.

Except, this won't solve anything.  Pretty much all current builds utilize only 2 tower classes anyway, so one person would still be able to do the whole build.  The only real solution would be to implement server lists, that way the host can dictate that everyone has to build or whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

An excellent spotting of a significant problem, but a solution that is in my opinion being sub par.

The problem right now is that a single player can carry a team with their defenses, when many would much rather be able to be equally valuable contributors. I would propose that defenses from only two of your classes would be permitted; you can swap between all your heroes, but only the first two heroes in your deck that summon defenses are permitted to build. That way if you want a truly diverse build, you'll want to work together as a team to determine each players' strength and capitalize on it. This suggestion also removes the arbitrary cap of 3 heroes in a deck in favor of adapting to any circumstance with any two hero defenses and a dps.

If there is an intention to make builds by multiple people necessary, then I'd rather suggest this:

Lower the damage each defense does, but therefore give a % of bonus damage for a defense build by multiple players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you had bonus damage for each subsequent player summoning defenses, the veterans would instruct new players to build a single defense followed by them building the rest to capitalize on that bonus.

How about this: every defense you own gives a 10% damage increase to all nearby defenses not owned by you? It would not apply to your own defenses; the boost would only apply to defenses created by others. This would encourage everyone to build and contribute, and not only that, it would encourage players to build in every lane (if everyone built in every lane, all defenses would be 30% stronger). That way, even if your towers suck, you know you're still contributing because you're giving the player with the strongest defenses a 10% damage boost. It would also be in everyone's best interest to keep others' defenses alive, as their defenses give an extra kick to yours and vice versa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@gigazelle quote:

How about this: every defense you own gives a 10% damage increase to all nearby defenses not owned by you?

That's a very interesting thought.  Would be tricky to implement and balance, but that is an neat idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...